I don't have much time right now, but I do have some interesting information I'd like to share with you from the sessions I've attended today.

This just in - Google has apologized! That's right, folks. There's been a lot of anger and frustration since the Florida Updates but apparently Google understands the fact that people's businesses rely on their results. For what it's worth, Craig Nevill-Manning, Google's Senior Research Scientist, said, "I apologize for the roller coaster. We're aware that changes in the algorithm affect people's livelihoods. We don't make changes lightly." Well, at least that's good to know.

"What's with the Ups and Downs?" During the Meet the Crawlers session, a woman from Conferencecall was clearly upset because her site is not ranking highly in google right now. She asked, "What's with the ups and downs?"

The response from Google was bland and dodgy, to say the least. The representatives said that there is a difference of relevance from engine to engine. When asked to comment specifically about Google's search relevance, they only stated that relevance is subjective and didn't really answer the question.

Who's in Charge Here? Another interesting question came from a man named Dave. Dave is the owner of http://www.ProPools.com. He asked whether he should provide info regarding pools and product research on his main website or on a separate informational site that would then lead to a sales site. This is an important question, and it provided some intriguing responses:

The Google representatives claim Google has no bias against commercial results -- which most people wouldn't buy at this point.

Jon Glick, senior manager for web search at Yahoo, said, "Keep the information within your site. We view the tactic of having separate informational and commercial sites as being 'bait and switch.'"

So you should have it all on one site? Who gave them the right to dictate the way people present online content anyway? One of the things I've come away with from this conference is that everyone is trying to call all the shots and in my opinion, it's just not right!

What do you think?

Searchers and Readers. Greg Jarboe, president and co-founder of SEO-PR, shared with me his interesting concept of search engines. We discussed the different search engine user personalities, and Greg told me he compares searchers to the readers of newspapers. Think about it - New York Times readers are going to be different from New York Post readers. They're going to have different interests, needs and wants. The same can be applied to search engines. Google users will naturally differ from Yahoo! users and MSN users... You get the general idea.

Get a Shopping Cart! Craig emphasized that the importance of putting products in Froogle is steadily increasing, but you HAVE to have a shopping cart. It's vital for anyone selling products. If you don't already have a shopping cart you can't get into Froogle right now. He promises that this will change eventually, once the algorithm gets sorted out, but it's part of a long list of things they are planning to do for Froogle. In that case, I hope you're patient! ;)

Stamping Out the Rumors. Here's something that's been discussed and debated many, many times. Someone asked Craig whether the change in Google's algorithm was put in place to drive Google Adwords sales.

(It's always funny to watch the Google representatives squirm when asked questions about their algorithm.)

Craig replied, "Oh, that's a surprising question! I never thought anyone would ask me that!" :D

After the audience was loosened up a bit, he went on, "At Google, we want to give the best results possible. In the long term we want people to keep coming back to Google. There's a high wall between our sales department and our search department. We'll be tweaking the algorithm gradually."

Hmmm... Do you folks believe his response?

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Thanks for the update.... My only comment and yes it's from the peanut gallery...

Def: Google Dance - SERPs adjusting at regular intervals to refelct the most relevant web page.

OR

Def: Google Dance - Senior Management from Google Search Engine avoiding direct questions about it's algo.

Sounds like the SOS.

I have a problem with

Jon Glick, senior manager for web search at Yahoo, said, "Keep the information within your site. We view the tactic of having separate informational and commercial sites as being 'bait and switch.'"

So now they tell me how to run my business what is he going to do anyway all they do is copy Google.

I was hoping Yahoo would drop Google and compete against them but when they say things like this it makes me understand why they have to copy Google.

They can not think by themselves.

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I reckon Yahoo should have its own pure search technology rather than rely on Google as it has a big enough share of interent searches. After all, their web directory seems pretty useless these days. That way there would be another major search engine to gain exposure from and share the traffic rather than relying soley on Google.
Florida type updates would then become less daunting!

I agree 100% but right now they just sell links for $300.00 a piece

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Yes it's tantamount to them dictating what content a site should carry.
The worrier here is this:
Google no longer works on democratic values. They believe they do.
Part of a democratic society is this. Everybody gets a fair shake. Now democarcy allow for others who want more to basically go for it and work for it.

This can be aplied to SEO. Everybody has a site up, some are working hard to push their sites further to the top, they want more than the fair shake of the stick. This is fair enough. Now Google has changed the level of the playing field... again!!
It's not that democratic.
I know this. i had a client we built him a beutiful website, optimised each page, gave him some Class 'A' reciprocal links (high rankers)good clean content, the whole site was optimised to go. He made it to teh top in his category and he and us worked hard to keep him there. I mean literally every 15 days we were optimising content.
Now the big change he dropped to 17th page and what took number one was a poorly exceuted site that had nothing to do with the given subject. This is nto democratic at all.
We will adjust to the new rules but we worry when do tehy change again, if they change what will it be next!!

Vincent

Seems to me that as the result get less relevant the spin grows in proportion. Scary thing is that they may even believe some of their own hype. Certainly statements such as..

..show how much BS is contained within many of their recent replies. Anyone who has a raft of sites covering different topics to look after, and/or has researched the recent changes properly (oh so many haven't although they often shout the loudest) knows just how false her statement is.

I think relying on Google or any search engine (or third party) for that matter to advertise your product or service is a mistake.

Search engine ranking and web crawling are still very nascent technologies that are not foolproof, hence the rise of SEO firms whose income depends solely on devising new ways to fool search engines so your site appears higher in the SE rankings. One would probably be better off spending that money on traditional advertising media, don’t you think?

So now given that search engines are not traditionally advertising media (I’m not saying they are not a good medium for advertising, just that they weren’t originally designed for advertising) but instead have been coaxed in that direction what with banner ads and those irritating pop ups, it only makes sense that that Google is trying to accommodate advertising while still maintaining the quality of their search results.

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Herein lies the problem. The ARE NOT keeping the quality of their search results. Look into it properly and it becomes very, very clear. To believe that Google is in any way doing this to keep their results relevant is misguided at best.

I think this whole algorithm business is bs. After enjoying the top spot for several search terms for almost 2 months on BOTH Google and Overture, bingbangpoof, nowhere to be found. The chick who said check the links, well, that's not a solution, just a cop out. It's all about the paid ad dollar and anyone who doesn't believe that is a dreamer. I would challenge every paying advertiser
to pull their Google and Overture ads for 30 days and then see what happens after the dust settles.

A few quick "odds and ends" thoughts...

1.) Garrett: Sorry I missed you at the SES Conference. I didn't even realize you were there too! If I had I would have kept an eye out for you.

2.) Don't let Google or any other SE tell you how to build your site. They don't have that right, plain and simple. Build your site to satisfy your visitors and soon-to-be-customers. Not the SE's. To do otherwise is foolish.

Example... If you build solely for the SE's and get 1,000 new, unique visitors per day, but only 1 or 2 of those to turn into a customer, you're failing no matter how you look at it. On the other hand, if you build solely for you visitors and only get 200 visitors per day, but 8 of them turn into customers.... You get the idea. Build for your visitors, not the search engines.

3.) Yahoo! will be coming with their own search very, very soon. A little birdie told me so. ;-) IN fact, those who are searching on Yahoo from IP's originating outside of North America have already been seeing non-Google results for two weeks, so they're ready to roll it out. As soon as Y is out from under the Google contract they signed last year expect a change on the US side of things too.

4.) Right now, Google controls 76% of all search. That's why they're the king. The moment Yahoo flips the switch that changes. Remember that MSN currently uses the Inktomi listings (which is now owned by Yahoo!) too.

When Y flips the switch the G vs. Y -supplied results comes out to be a much more balanced 51% for G and 43% for Y according to my math. I should repeat those figures, but just read them again. I'm wore out from travelling and lack of sleep.

Be smart. Start working on your Inktomi listings now. (HotBot.com will give you pure Ink results to look at.) Seriously, that change is coming in a matter of weeks, not months or years. Nobody would give me a firm date, but "by mid-February at the latest" would be a very safe bet from the hints I got.

5.) Next on the short-term horizon? MSN providing their own Search results and possibly an PFI and PPC program too. All run in house because Mr. Bill doesn't like to share. Expect a full court blitz by MSN as soon as they can manage one. Bill likes to *control* a market, not be the #3 provider.

6.) Next on the medium-term horizon? The Personalization of Search. Say what? Okay, that speaks to a situation where data from each individuals search and what they do with it is saved to their local computer in a database. Why? Because Personalization is the Holy Grail that every SE is shooting for. It will provide each individual much more relevant results on their future searches. (Think of it in the same vein as much of the current Spam blocking software which you "train", then apply that idea to search.)

When that happens there will be such thing as a #1 ranking that applies across the board for everyone who searches XYZ Search Engine anymore. This sounds scary, but is a good thing. To compete and be successful you will ***have*** to target your content to the type of visitor you want to entice into becoming a Customer. Because the #1 site for I get on my computer will not be the same site that comes up as #1 for you.

7.) Basically a re-statement in more direct language... Stop obsessing over Google. Those of us who have been through this before know that they eventually return to relavent results. If they don't, they won't be the king anymore. It's really that simple. Plus, their market share is due to take a drastic drop very, very soon.

For your own searches, if you don't like G's current results, go try Teoma, they're a better engine anyway. They just haven't been marketed as effectively. Of course that's just my personal opinion. But wouldn't it be nice to see AOL drop Google and with one of the "smaller" engines like Teoma so that we could all have real diversity in the marketplace? (Send me a goodie basket for that thought if it comes true Paul! heehee)

I'll be back with more trinkets after I've had a chance to catch my breath and get about 24 hours of straight sleep. Garrett's right. Three days is too long if you're really hustling and trying to collect as much information as humanly possible!

This is my first post here. Thanks for sharing the info. Garrett. Excellent Job!

And also Excellent Job to RandyC insight!

Hi all,
Garrett, great work!! I would have loved to see them squirm when the question re: the algorithms came up..LOL
What should have been done from the beginning with any search engine is set the rules and leave them.
Our search is set up that way and I wouldn't even hesitate to let you know how you can get a better ranking. Also, we have had a way since the beginning to make the visitors have a say in how your site is ranked. People can send us comments, both negative and positive and that all effects the way the rankings are. It is built in.

Since the Internet broke loose and Yahoo figured out how to index all the sites in a searchable data base, we have had people trying to regulate it. I see Google in that light and am shocked to see other major search engines follow suit. When you pull from other data bases, when you only do your searches on one engine, when you only go to one store to purchase your advertising, we, WE have given Google this power and sooner or later Google will figure that out.
It is a shame that the darn search is so good. and I have to give it to them for that.

Dmcgill

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"For your own searches, if you don't like G's current results, go try Teoma, they're a better engine anyway. They just haven't been marketed as effectively. Of course that's just my personal opinion. But wouldn't it be nice to see AOL drop Google and with one of the "smaller" engines like Teoma so that we could all have real diversity in the marketplace? (Send me a goodie basket for that thought if it comes true Paul! heehee)"
so what are optimazations for Teoma versus Google?

Janeth wrote:

I agree 100% but right now they just sell links for $300.00 a piece

Surely most stopped buying in, when they became obviously ineffective in search results! I believe many buyers and SEOs ducked out sometime back, didn't they?

We and our clients did!, It was so obvious clients opted to terminate on their own!

2, Interesting things though:

1). Ducking out didn't appear to have a negative effect on Yahoo Search Results for participants.

2). Some sites have been more positively effected by the GOOGLE influence on YAHOO than what was observed with the fee, prior!

Ken

Build for your visitors, not the search engines.

Excellent idea... but first those visitors have to find the website.

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I'm back from the living dead I think. LOL A full night's sleep seemed to help a great deal.

Frogman: Teoma's algo or "method" if you will is the same as most search engines honestly. Just that theirs is more refined. So if you get a good ranking on Teoma you should everywhere else. Nice side-benefit there.

The quickie/basic instructions: (I don't think Paul Gardi w/ Teoma will shoot me for putting this out there since he talks about it both publically and privately.)

• Build your site so that it will convert visitors into customers.
  Work your keyword phrases into your copy so that the SE can tell what your site is about.
  Do a good amount of research and get some incoming links from some of the so-called "Authority" or "Expert" sites.
  Provide a good product or service, then sit back a bit and collect tons of money.

The keys being, structuring your site and writing copy that will convert; and obtaining quality (as opposed to quantity) incoming links to your site. Become an authority for the subject of your site.

The main difference between Google's PR and Teoma is that Google has never tried to decide if a site linking to you was an Authority or Expert site on a particular subject or not. Teoma does.

Part of Teoma's algo looks at the Community of a given search before trying to determine Authority. Only if a site is an Authority in a given discipline is it given an Authority label.

A quick for instance... With Google's PR, if a site was PR9 because it was a fantastic resource for Widgets, that PR would be passed on to anybody they link to, even if the the subject matter was totally different.

Teoma goes farther... Meaning if a site was an Authority for Widgets, but was linking to a site about Lederhosen, it would be counted as a link, but not an Authority link. They've done Google PR better than Google has, because they look back far enough at incoming links to the sites giving you incoming links to see if the theme or subject matter is on-subject.

Sounds difficult, right? Not really...search on Teoma for your phrases. Along the right side you'll see two things you can use to help you out.

The first is Refinements, which is simply a bit of a guess as to a more specific search based upon the searches performed through Ask.com or any of the other Teoma partners.

Second is the Resources section. That will give you a huge amount of information concerning the top sites that are considered to be Authority sites.

Do that on several of your main, secondary and tertiary keyword phrases, write some decent copy and get a few quality incoming links and you're set!

Randy

If you build for your visitors so that they become clients, include the phrases they would search on to find what you have to offer where appropriate, and obtain incoming links from some quality sites you'll be there TrafficProducer.

Visibility (or ranking) and Conversion has to work hand-in-hand. They're not the same thing of course, but with well written copy you can certainly satisfy both of those requirements.

Better yet, this approach works across the board for all search engines.

I agree with you janeth !! :-)

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Hi nakulgoyal

Yes it does not matter how many people are buying what your selling the point is that is what there selling.

Also greeneagle you may want to re think what your doing because if Yahoo drops Google you may wish you had paid the $300.00 for the link.

Just a though

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You're a bit wrong on that score. It has nothing to do with whether or not YOU or your website is using adwords. Ours still is and always was on the real estate terms...we only made it to number 5 and that wasn't good enough, so we kept on the adword for that one term. We died just like all the rest. And we are still on the adwords thing. It has to do with the keyphrase, and whether or not its a good adword producer. If it is, then there are no business sites on it now. Therefore they will all have to use adwords or sink. That being said, I don't think it is 100% of the reason...but it's probably 80% of it.
20% being trying to weed out the SEO sites.

Something amusing....if you put in Myrtle Beach house right now...guess what comes up number one?
The House of Blues! I thought that was a hoot.

Jan