Google PageRank Entertaining Us?

Chris · #1 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 11:23 AM

There has been a rumor going around that Google’s PageRank Toolbar display should only be used for entertainment, meaning that the green bar is not an accurate account of a site’s PageRank.

According to Barry Schwartz of SearchEngineRoundTable.com, a post showed up on the SearchEngineWatch forum from an individual claiming to have inside knowledge concerning the PageRank display on Google’s toolbar. As indicated in the post:

“The PageRank that is displayed in the Google Toolbar is for entertainment purposes only. Due to repeated attempts by hackers to access this data, Google updates the PageRank data very infrequently because is it not secure. On average, the PR that is displayed in the Google Toolbar is several months old. If the toolbar is showing a PR of zero, this is because the user is visiting a new URL that hasn't been updated in the last update.”

If this were true, it would mean all the people who worry about “the little green bar” are wasting their energy. Although, many would contend this is the case even if Toolbar PR is accurate.

Because the post contained information that supposedly came from a Google representative, news of Google PR being for entertainment purposes only elicited widespread surprise from the SEO community. As indicated in Barry’s synopsis: “…we all knew PageRank was not something to look at too closely these days, but for Google to come out and say ‘The PageRank that is displayed in the Google Toolbar is for entertainment purposes only’, kind of shocks me.”

Surprise was not the only sentiment being expressed by readers of John Galt’s post. Some of the more cynical in the SEO world were far less surprised and drew some degree of validation from the “news”. Poster KeywordMonkey had these thoughts:

“...if it's (a fairly) pointless cosmetic feature that will inevitably mislead most web users, why keep it? It's of SEO value of course - but who doesn’t have to re-educate clients about it?

In fact, I think Google should put a well written explanation on the toolbar download page stating what it does and doesn't show, so we can point clients to that and then get on with the real job of SEO - making sure clients sites are spider and user friendly, with good content that Google etc. will be happy to send users to.”

In the comments section of Barry’s entry concerning the latest PageRank confusion, noted Google insider GoogleGuy flatly stated that the SEW post was mistaken. According to GG, “I'd strongly disagree with the statement that the toolbar PageRank is for ‘entertainment purposes only’--millions of toolbar users use the PageRank display to judge the quality of pages. I think it's also a little irresponsible to quote JohnGalt claiming to talk to some random person at Google, and then for you to quote it as a response from Google, which makes it sound more official.

I'm happy to refute that this is any sort of official stance.”

Unfortunately, most of the subsequent comments were generally reduced to “PR is worthless”, “No it’s not” debate. However, in the SEW discussion, Dave Hawley offered this thought that seemed to sum up just how important PageRank really is: “While PageRank may, or may not, be a big factor in SERP position. It can be a HUGE factor if a PR update sends you from page 1 to page 2, or vice versa.”

Barry, who was pleased that GoogleGuy came by and cleared up any misconceptions, had a thought that, even after GG’s comment, may still have a nugget of truth to it: “Apparently, Google is still using PageRank to rank sites but just not displaying the current value to the Google Toolbar user.”

**jawn_tech** · #2 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 11:51 AM

Great article CRich, you hit the nail right on the head. I think it confirms what many people have been saying, or thinking, or wondering about.

One thing I've compared PR toolbar to is the "need oil" light in your car. Don't rely on it. But the car needs oil to run nonetheless.

Google's highest factor is backlinks. PR is their method of calculating backlinks. You'll know when your site is low on backlinks either by 'breaking down' (like a car) in the serps, or when the 'light goes on' (rather, when the PR shows 0) -- but by that time it's too late. The best way to ensure a smooth-running website in the serps is by constantly adding more backlinks.

bhartzer · #3 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 12:12 PM

We know that the public display of PageRank on the Toolbar is not the real PR of a page.

I'm am of the opinion that if Google displays the PR of a page then it should be accurate. If not, then they should not display it at all--it's very deceptive.

Quote:

If this were true, it would mean all the people who worry about “the little green bar” are wasting their energy.

Not only are they wasting their energy, I believe that Google is deceiving the public. They know it's not accurate although they continue to display inaccurate data.

I feel the same about backlinks--if Google is going to give the public a command to view the backlinks of a page then that, too, should be accurate. If it's not (and we know it's not), then Google shouldn't offer the command.

MikeV · #4 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 02:29 PM

let me pull the thread apart and derive something useful:

According to GG, "I'd strongly disagree with the statement that the toolbar PageRank is for ‘entertainment purposes only'--millions of toolbar users use the PageRank display to judge the quality of pages.

Analysis: I disagree with the word "only". I prefer "also" or "mostly". People use the thing therefore it has merit.. like tofu or the George Foreman Grill.. it's it worthless? well I wouldn't say that out loud.

GG: "I think it's also a little irresponsible to quote JohnGalt claiming to talk to some random person at Google, and then for you to quote it as a response from Google, which makes it sound more official"

Analysis: Standard government technique for denying a leak; attack the credibility of the reporter. Is he saying it's not true? No, he's saying he's bothered by the person making it sound like "official google policy" rather than the unspoken reality. Like the Iran/Contra thing. reality regardless of official policy.

Just my not so humble opinion.

I also do palm readings at book fairs. :)

Mike
mikev@seodocotor.com
Now that's Evil!!

mktplace · #5 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 03:54 PM

slightly off topic. . . but

"Who is John Galt"

If you were to believe the hype, then John Galt is here to make our world a better place, without technology :)

--see Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

Having said that, who cares about PR (I know, lots of you think you do :)? I think it is more important to see where you rank in the SERPs and how much traffic you get from Google (or any other SE for that matter).

I hope John (not his real name) Galt is right in his quoting of Google. It makes me sick to see those with PR5+ "selling" links from their sites. . . this is just another reason to avoid paying for links, as the pages they are coming from may not be what you think from the entertaining green bar. Demand verifiable statistics, else caveat emptor!

I beleive the green bar was accurate up until their API was hacked. Now they just leave it there because it is part of what "we" have all installed.

Anecdotal evidence? Site1 of mine is still a PR5, and is getting almost 3x the traffic it once was; a similar site has a PR2 and is getting almost as much traffic as Site1... hmmmm, makes you wonder.

fmoten · #6 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 04:06 PM

Great Article!

I appreciate someone stepping up..

arpecop · #7 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 04:48 PM

so how you can explain that one of my sites reach from 0 to 5 page rank 2 weeks before last page rank update and the site was started the same time

midwesternsky · #8 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 05:02 PM

Much has also been said about pages with little or no pagerank getting high rankings and have concluded that PR means nothing in those cases. Could it be that these pages do have high PR but simply havent been shown to the public yet?

The article below tries to make the claim that PR is no longer valid but if it is true that the toolbar is "entertaining us" then PR is still valid, but the toolbar is not.

http://www.axandra.com/news/newsletter111.htm

My thought is that PR is like oxygen, it becomes a big deal if you don't have any.

danno · #9 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 05:29 PM

Page Rank is a reality. There are no end to the tools that can help you calculate it.

The question is, should the pagerank display be used if the information is not correct.

Two diferent things.

PageRank is one thing.

PageRank display in the Google toolbar is another thing.

In this discussion it is important to use correct terminology so as to not ring the wrong alarm bells.

Absolutely, Google should keep the display of PageRank accurate, that is its purpose, to be a guage. If your gas guage in your car were to run like that, you could run out of gas and not get any indicator before hand.

If the API is not secure and can be hacked, guess what? It should be corrected so that it is secure.
Is this a publicly traded company or not? Wouldn't take too much pressure or media attention about it to get them hopping I would say.

Anyone who really cares should really raise the roof about this via press releases and complaints to the media. There is a specific category at PRWEB.com when submitting a press release that goes to stock related news. There's a good place to start.
You can also submit to one category for free BTW.

If their stock goes down at all because of it, watch the miraculous correction that takes place.

Danno

Amykey · #10 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 05:53 PM

Having been bounced off and ignored by GG and its mini-me (Deemoz) for so long, I have been forced to discover the new MSN beta engine, where all my domains were listed error-free rapidly, I can only conclude that referring to the PR as "entertainment" is an unnecessary politeness, "antiquated" or "useless" would be more accurate. I have dumped the GG bar in eager anticipation of MSN advancements.

mac22 · #11 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 07:39 PM

Hello,

There is strange delayed( approx 8-10 weeks) when google "see" that some links direct to your site (sometimes at once, for example use "www.zegarki.com.pl" It's mine) but if you use "link:http://www.zegarki.com.pl/" almost none of them is visible as a link to this site even after 2 months.Only few of that sites are accepted as a links after that time .And there are any resonable solution how it is happend :((

mac22

cbp · #12 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 07:41 PM

Welcome to WPW

Ignore the link: command it Google - like PR, the backlinks are now there for entertainment purposes and what they show publically is meaningless.

CBP

clasione · #13 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 08:29 PM

It's pretty funny.... As I read this it reminds me only more that Google just wasn't ready for their toolbar pagerank feature to be minipulated so quickly and easily...

I imagine that their first defence was to stop the pagerank bar from working so predictably.... Now, they just doen't know what the heck to do with it....

Whatever they try and do - doesn't work -

it's figured out to quickly.... Their team of marketers are working hard at Google Inc.,
While the World Wide Web is working hard at home....

How do you really win such a battle?

So what's their second defence?
Well - they stop the tool bar from working at all....?

You would think that is the answer....
But I believe they refuse to take it down....

But they are in a very bad spot right now.... The newsletter mentions there "pagerank explanation" page....

They really can't say it does something it doesn't...

They definetly cant say it's for entertainment purposes only - that's just too foolish...

I love the toolbar, and I love the idea of pagerank - but I'm just not too sure how long they should use it, cause it's far from what it was meant to be....

They created something - and people sell it.....

Not exactly a successful plan....

Maybe it was just too good.....?

**jawn_tech** · #14 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 08:44 PM

**Applauding what CBP said**

Darn right. A site I manage has about 300-500 backlinks. Google shows about 50 of them.

(BTW, welcome new posters! Glad to have you here!)

My take on the "tool to measure quality" thing is that it's bogus. Google's stated purpose for the PR toolbar and what it does in reality are two different things. Using a PR toolbar for measuring the quality of a website is like using an inaccurate yardstick for measuring the "quality" of a sculpture in a museum. Wrong set of criteria, and it's innacurate to boot. A site's quality has nothing to do with backlinks, and PR is merely a mathematical equation on the premise of backlinks. Viewers can be the judge of a site's quality. PR certainly doesn't indicate a business' ethics -- there are bureaus for that. Non-ethical businesses can get backlinks and good SERP positions. So what's left? A colorful little green bar that's about as useful as a spinning knob on a playpen.

On the other hand, it is used by webmasters including myself -- not to evaluate my site, but for getting an indication of other sites/pages I may want a backlink from. That is, in hopes that the PR is still the same for that site since the last update, a couple blue moons ago (usually).

mlevenhagen · #15 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 09:16 PM

It was a good idea. Time to move on...

The people at Google aren't stupid. They got to realize that it's another good idea that took on a life of it's own and is manipulated by the whole SEO community. In hindsight, it probably would have been better to keep secret... although it was a good way to get people to download their toolbar:)

Quote:

Wrong set of criteria, and it's innacurate to boot. A site's quality has nothing to do with backlinks, and PR is merely a mathematical equation on the premise of backlinks. Viewers can be the judge of a site's quality. PR certainly doesn't indicate a business' ethics -- there are bureaus for that. Non-ethical businesses can get backlinks and good SERP positions.

I whole heartedly agree!

It's spirred this whole "IBLs are king" thing that just creates a storm of SEOs trying to buy or cheat their way into the number one position in the SERPS. Another tool that hurts the internet as a whole.

You don't have to worry about the value of your content anymore... you just need people linking to your site.

P.S. There sure are a lot of first posters in here... Welcome!

kservik · #16 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 10:46 PM

Well, there is a another problem with PR that few mentions. Its the problem with getting a higher PR in smaller countries and even more in regions of theese countries.

In Norway, the the pages with the highest PR we got is PR8. We are the country in the world with the highest internet penetration in the world. Still we only got a few pages at this level.

In my hometown, a region with 140.000 people (Norway got 4,5 million) the highest PR is 6 (large regional newspaper). One site got this, a few are PR5. Getting a PR above this, will mean buying links or getting into non-relevant link exchange with international sites.

Getting help from DMOZ is of not much use, since the PR of the relevant categories here are very low.

Cyber Gypsy · #17 (**permalink**) 12-03-2004, 11:02 PM

I agree with you mktplace. I was approached by another website wanting to "sell" me a link because their PR was a 7. I think it is over rated. I use the google adsense to pick up spare change, but I get plenty of traffic from Yahoo and MSN to my websites
I built a clothing alterations website and put it on geocities. Did nothing to promote it and it has a PR of 6. Go figure? http://www.yolandasalterations.com is the forwarded url.
Http://www.auntjudysattic.com only has a PR of 4 but if I had any more business I would have to hire help for that one. Most of the traffic comes from yahoo, msn and Jeeves.
Google just has more servers and they are faster to list the latest information. The drawback is you have to wade through to many irrelevant listings.

drods · #18 (**permalink**) 12-04-2004, 06:20 AM

well, the inconsistency in rankings in google compared to page rank could be explained by the fact that the pr is in fact for entertainment purposes only, but unfortunatly as of yet, we dont know. or at least i dont!
i think theres probably more to the page rank than just entertainment value.

but hey, it wouldn't surprise me if it was just for entertainment.

whatever! im actually fed up with trying to gain high rankings on google, theres inconsistancies all over google.
For me, its easier to get well ranked on yahoo & the quality of traffic is just as good in my main game (adult) !

food for thought though!

cbp · #19 (**permalink**) 12-04-2004, 06:46 AM

Quote:

theres probably more to the page rank than just entertainment value

PR is still probably very important ---- its just the true PR is used internally at Google and what they give us via the toolbar is the entertainment.

CBP

sem-seo-pro · #20 (**permalink**) 12-04-2004, 09:05 AM

Hi there

Googles tool bar is not a joke nor is it entertainment.
It is however misunderstood.

One thing Googles Tooolbar does not do is accurately reflect true PageRank due to the fact that PageRank is based on two criteria.

One criteria you can see in the little green ink on the toolbar, the other criteria you see in the results pages of Google but not in the toolbar.

One is general ranking which is the value of the links leaving your page and this is what is displayed in the toolbar. This value has little to do with how well you show up in the SERPs.

The other is specific ranking which is the value of incoming links to your page, which match the users keyword term search query. This value has a great deal to do with how well you rank in the SERPs.

The above are thoughts of others which I feel have the greatest accuracy in describing the toolbar and which I happen to agree with.

Your mileage may vary!

Clint

rcl · #21 (**permalink**) 12-04-2004, 10:14 AM

The Google PageRank and the Alexa Ranking.... I think both are confusing. The difference is that, you can abuse Alexa more easily. Just set some of your friends to install

Alexa toolbar on their computer and ask them to browse your site regularly...you will find Alexa ranking is increasing at rocket speed. Google PR is not so rocket speed

increaser though, but it is really can be abused, I think.

My below directory site once had a PR5, when the directory was little, about 2000 resources. Now it has 13000+ good resources and PR became 4. While my server stat

and Google AdSense stats shows a definite increase in quality traffic.