Website Pricing

[mykiesee]

I charge $100.00 per page for a static web design and $200.00 per page for flash. Recently, potential clients have called requesting a quote and when I tell them the rates they say something like, "Really, that's all, I thought it would be more."

Now I'm thinking, is this a good thing or a bad thing? I don't want to leave money on the table but I also want to be affordable to the small and medium businesses out there. I'm located in South Georgia and I know rates vary by location but I would like some input as to what others think and maybe different ways they may be charging clients.

Any comments would be appreciated.

[dharrison]

Hi mykie

Have you checked out what your local competition are charging? Either sending an enquiry either through their website or via a gmail/hotmail email address.

It sounds sneaky, but research is normally a good way to find out what the going rate is (and its certainly the norm where I am).

Another good tip is to find out what you are getting for your money (eg support, analysis, maintenace etc) and how can you improve on that.

HTH

[rumblepup]

This was one of the reasons I got out of the design business, pricing.

Did you ever get those customers that said "Wait a minute, the kid down the street will do it for 50 bucks and a can a coke"

Value is in the eye of your client. When it comes down to it, how do you value your time vs. your service? Are you making enough money?

Charge what you will, but I would suggest to get off the per page pricing. Move to an hourly rate, so to value the time you spend instead of the page you make.

[mykiesee]

Yes, I've gotten those kinds of comments about the kid down the street, a cousin, etc doing a site on the cheap, but I always remind them that you get what you pay for and ask if the person has a degree in design as I do. If they start off wanting to be cheap, then I suggest they go with the kid down the street as it won't benefit me monetarily or mentally in the long wrong.
I think I'll brush off my dusty yahoo email account and go shopping as suggested above.

Thanks for the input.

[varun8211]

You won't believe, people charge $100 for the complete 6 pages websites.. so it really matters where you are located. now, $500 is a very reasonable amount for 6 pages website with a small php contact us page but I would give some concession for each extra page.

Varun B
http://www.galaxyweblinks.com - Custom software development & Website Design

[ran_dizolph]

Definitely get off the 'per-page' charging...main reason being, your idea of what a 'page' consists of can be quite different from that of a client.

I've tried going the hourly rate route, but to be honest, have found just sitting down with the client, hammering out exactly what they want/need, then providing a complete quote for the job to be the best way to go.

Don't EVER sell yourself short, or low-ball yourself. If the client opts to have their newphew who is 'good with computers' do it, they will soon enough realize the shortcomings of that. Stand strong by what you feel your time is worth, and you'll do just fine.

[davidredwine]

I used to compete with the kid down the street who would do a website for $50 and a can of coke. Young people's lives are dynamic and change fast, and therefore depending on a very young school or college age webdesigner can result in the client being left holding the bag on a website they can no longer administer (lost docs, passwords, backups, lost domain name, etc). I now charge $75hr for business clients (5 or more employees) and $50hr for mom and pop shops (4 or less employees). Standard IT networking sysadmin, and programming rates vary from $45 to $85hr on avg across the nation, and really it comes down to how good you are, and how much you want the work. At $45 or less, it is simply not worth my time....life is too short. Now that I charge more (I used to charge as little as $25hr), I am happier, my clients are more impressed with the work (I guess they only value what the pay for, the more they pay the more they seem to value the work.....people are funny that way).

I try to do the harder stuff, like the layout, imaging, navigation, seo, javascript, tables, and the first pass of the iamges and prose myself. I often try to involve some of my clients in making simple changes themselves, like prices, rates, seasonal photos, or text. When they get a taste of what is involved, they are much more humble and more appreciative of the rate they are being charged.

Anyway, I have so much work to do now, I generally won't take on an SEO campaign, for example for less than $3200 unless the site is pre-existing and is already ripe for SEO.

On the Design side, some pages (like an interactive search page, or e-commerce page, or page with forms) take more time and effort than others, so a per page price makes no sense.

I agree with rumblepup......per page is not a fair way to price your work......not fair to you, and sometimes not fair to your client.

I try to sometimes raise my rates to semi price myself out of a project, but this often backfires and clients are sometimes more easy to sign up. It's crazy, but you should try it.

P.S. when a client comes to you via a referral from a previous client of yours, it will be hard to price yourself out of the business......generally they know the rates you charged the referring client. In this case, I usually go up 30% on average.

If you think I'm crazy, wait till you, my friend, are working 7 days a week and average of 10 to 14 hours a day, then tell me you don't want to raise your rates.

My company charges $400 an hr for the technical work I do for their clients (technical consulting).....and believe you me, those clients are getting a bargain. I can usually save 20%typical project price I look at, and it seldom takes me more than 1-5 hours to do the analysis and revisions. On an $80,000 project that is a $16,000 savings. For the record, I have saved my clients more money than that in many circumstances.

However, I have more clients than I can handle inside the company I work for (I do outside work for the $50/$75 hr).......and I am thinking of going to a 5 hour/$2000 minimum.

[bwelford]

If you really need the revenues, then you've got to set your prices at levels that helps you get immediate revenues. However in the longer term, I think you've got to decide whether you're designing 'pretty' web pages or whether you're creating a website that can deliver leads and create sales. Pretty web pages are easy and can be made cheaply. Selling effective web pages demand much more and if you do them well, then your customers will pay much higher prices.

[MarcGrobman]

Yea, it is troubling to have to list it per page, but you do need some way to put limits on the work and that is a pretty concrete way.

I bid on a per project basis. First there is a design process with comps where the client decides what the overall site will look like. That is a separate line item. Then the first page or two get built out. From there I caclulate it on a per page basis depending on how large the site is. Most of the work is in the design and build out of the first couple of pages.

I have also begun to quote this as an estimate that will be billed hourly. And if they start to excede the budget, I notify them ahead of time. Otherwise you can really get in trouble. Some clients require so much hand holding and often the cheapest ones are the most demanding.

But when I need a concrete bid, I hold them to a page count and a certain number of revisions. That way it is clear when they are going over, or at least I have something concrete I can point to.

Either way the key is organization and clear communication to allow you avoid spending to much time and to avoid upsetting the client with unexpected fees.

[jrdmra]

I charge around $100 per page. I mostly find myself designing static sites for small businesses that are around 5-7 pages. This includes two revisions and one design. If they want me to make two or three designs then I charge at least $1,000 The client writes the content. I have a $400 minimum to even take a job

However. I never tell a client " I charge $100 per page" I talk with them, discuss what they want see what they liek and what they need and go from there. I can usually get an ongoing SEO contract with the client as well so I factor that into the original design price as well, offering a lower price for long term contracts.

Strictly HTML sites with no programming except your standard contact forms and the client provides all photos and content.

Content writing adds an additional fee based on 400 word pages.

Any additional technical consulting including marketing, content and information management is more money. I also sub contract all of the programming php asp databases etc. and upcharge teh client because I deal with the programmer directly.

This works for me, You should read teh book Million Dollar Consulting By Alan Weiss. He really gives great advice for the self employed consultant on pricing, marketing and selling yourself and your services.

I also get the "thats all?" comment from somke and from others I get the "Thats too much for our company" so its give and take. If I drop my prices, I drop my services I will use templates, drop the page count or revisions or extend the deadline significantly to offer a lower price. Often the people who want the lowest price are the ones whoc are the most difficult to work for. That is definately true! I am never afraid of losing a contract because the client doesnt want top pay me what I am worth.

[Akashic]

I agree with Marc, I quote on the design, pages and content as separate entities. After the design and any variations on it are quoted on I look at a price per page.

[Haze]

Originally Posted by mykiesee

I charge $100.00 per page for a static web design and $200.00 per page for flash. Recently, potential clients have called requesting a quote and when I tell them the rates they say something like, "Really, that's all, I thought it would be more."

It depends on your market. Is it the local hair dresser or Coke?
Do you want them to call back a year later etc..

We charge 30 euros/hour flat rate whatever we produce.
A A4 colour magazine takes app. an hour per page to produce.
A 6 pages static website with a asp forms takes an hour or two to set up, and the other 5 can't take many minutes to produce, unless you do the copy and translations as well.
So whatever you guys charge over there, even the kids, we probably can do it cheaper..
Be glad for your 100...

Ciao Haze in Spain
www.activemarbella.com

"Realize that if you have time to whine and complain about something, then you have the time to do something about it."
-- Anthony D'Angelo

[LD]

After a needs and requirements meeting I typically go with per-page-pricing when preparing a proposal as most of my clients are small to medium sized businesses and only some have need for a database or e-commerce site which can be a little more “involved”.

I used to calculate the number of hours I thought would go into a project. As an example, I might have included 3 hours of research, 3 or 4 hours assessing the competition, 5 hours designing the main interface, 4 hours coding, a couple hours for manipulating images, formatting the text, testing and so on and so on. However when I compared those hours multiplied by my charge out rate compared to a standard pricing scheme, I was really close almost every time. So I started going with a standard fee for the first page and then charge a per-page cost for the next 10 and if more pages are required, I’d then reduce the per page cost for the following 10 etc.

Of course with this type of pricing there are limits to the number of images allowed on each page as well as the amount of text per page as it could easily get out of hand. If someone wants 20 images on a page, the 15 extra images I work with are charged as an extra using a standard per image charge. The same can be said for excessive text that needs to be formatted on a given page.

This is a rather simplistic explanation and a little more goes into it than what I’ve indicated, but basically I have found it really works – for me anyhow. As a check, I do log the number of hours I put into each project, on specific development levels and compare it to the amount invoiced and of course can adjust my charge out rate per page if I was falling short of my targets.

Sorry – it wasn’t supposed to be this long winded.

[orfeo]

I find per page charging very-very wrong. Issues of complexity arise all the time. It's not the same to build a site that has one standard layout through out 20 pages and another one with different designs per section or other customizations.

Also it assumes that the site is static and to me it seems a little like degrading our job. I like per hour charging but I never talk about that to the client. I just calculate the hours it will take me (researching, planning, meetings, design, layout) and then come out with a price. Since I try to calculate some hour for research, reading and meetings I don't charge more than 30 euros per hour. If I have to do a strictly technical job (security audit e.g.) I charge 50 euros per hour.

At the end the client should just hear a price for a specific job.

Just try to deserve every penny you ask and don't worry about cousins and kids down the street. No matter what you ask (500 or 5000), someone will be there to tell its too much.

my 2 cents

[dgm2006]

In my experience clients inevitably take a project price and then work out the page rate themselves without consideration to one page being static HTML and another being Pure Flash with integrated video. I advocate giving clear guidance to potential clients combined with showing them examples of sites that cost 'X' to create. As much as we love our work, we do it to make money. Research your competition, price fairly and relevantly for the client. Professionalism, reliability and quality of service are worth paying for.

www.davidmears.co.uk
www.dandpc.co.uk

[hkentcraig]

After doing websites professionally since 1998 but only for friends I went full-time this past January of 2007 and pricing has become a major issue in generating both quality leads and inking contracts to the point where I am going to have to restructure my rates and terms and conditions.

Every client needs at least some sort of beginning ballpark figure even if it's just for a simple single landing page and they want a hundred page site eventually. This is why I have my "base rate" of a turnkey package for $395 for such a single page "business shingle" and anything other than that I quote (I always give a complete written quote with a full scope of work regardless).

The old rule in pricing consulting work of any kind I think applies still to webwork: if you need, say, $25 an hour takehome pay before taxes (call it $50K/year), you need to charge four times that or $100 per hour. This is because you have lots of unbillable time for marketing, collecting, research, etc. and that time has to be paid for somehow.

That said, I have had several clients absolutely freak when I mention that my base rate is $95 an hour ("my doctor/lawyer/plumber doesn't even charge that much!" is typical) so just as pure response to existing local marketing conditions, I am going to have to lower my base hourly rate just to keep the stickershock low.

In the end, though, since all work is quoted, exactly how much I charge for my work within my own internal accounting is irrelevant to the client, since all they care about is the bottomline cost and if they have confidence in me to give them what they want.

If I do, they're happy and they'll generate me new customers by word of mouth, if they're not happy then I could give them everything for free and they'd still be un-happy.

[LD]

Originally Posted by orfeo

I find per page charging very-very wrong. Issues of complexity arise all the time. It's not the same to build a site that has one standard layout through out 20 pages and another one with different designs per section or other customizations.

I understand what you are saying, however to say the per-page pricing is very-very wrong is wrong. It may not work for you but at least for me, it can simplify the process of estimating and may work for others.

I can appreciate the complexity and additional labour when not using the exact design layout throughout the entire site. This can easily be built into the cost. So if there are design mods on inside pages, this can be accounted for as an "extra".

Whether someone build an estimate around an hourly rate and end up at a cost of say $3000 for a basic site or you do a per-page estimate and end up roughly at the same price, I don't see that it really matters.

It's clear when a client wants 10 pages, but also is somewhat interested in a flash intro or banner, the this can be added in as an "extra" or "suggested service" alowing the client to choose. The same goes for any database work - it is added in as an extra.

I find that after taking note of the client's needs and requirements it's can also allow them to control their budget, scaling back or adding pages if necessary.

I've done both hourly and per page estimating but find per page much easier and can almost be done on the spot at a client meeting if the site needs are simple. Of course per-page pricing doesn't work when including a database,flash design, or even a "gallery" where a designer works with 100 imagesor more. These are priced separately.

I also include language in our contract which allows us to re-evaluation of an estimate should the needs or requirements change.

[mykiesee]

LD,
That is basically how I charge my clients also. I may not be as strict as I should about charging for some of the extras. I think what it boils down to, either way you go, is to communicate to the client what is included in a basic design estimate and what is extra.

Thanks to everyone who responded to my initial post. I can always count on you guys for great advice, tips, etc.

[rumblepup]

One thing I didn't cover in my original post was the fact that the DESIGN of the website, the GUI, if done in Photoshop or Fireworks, takes time. In fact, to me, it's one of the largest parts of the design, the visual layout.

When I did per page pricing, I lost my shirt on the time spent sending customers layouts, and having them change them, and go against your advise, or, approving a design and having them turn around the next day and COMPLETLY change it. AAAAGGGGHHHHHH!!!

That's why a per hour, IMHO, is better. A pre-approved estimate, with provisions for revisions, gives your customers the incentive to work with you, not use up your time.

Even though websites are a little easier to make, due to templates and such, most customers who need to hire a web-designer just DON'T KNOW what it takes to put one together, they think you just do it.

As soon as I stopped per-page pricing, I lost a ton of business, but I EARNED more at per hour pricing.

Even that has it's pitfalls, because you run into time overages that some customers don't, or won't understand.

In any case, the best of luck to you mykiesee. Communication is the key. When I finally got it boiled down to the nitty gritty and got that part right, I decided to get out of the business.

And by the way, as per your original post. It's obvious to me that your leaving a ton of money on the table if your customers are saying, "only?" Bump up your next quote to 150 per page, 400 for flash, se what happens.

[kapur]

My opinion is that we should give our best to the client in terms of services and design and charge the best. This will make you and your client satisfied and that is the punch line.

[LD]

Our contract language states a client is allowed up to 3 "minor" revisions. It goes on further to state what a "minor" revision is. Further language states that extra revisions or anything that is not a minor revision is treated as an "extra" and will be added to the overall cost.

If the client balks at paying extra $$ for extra revisions or a major revision, then ensuring you secured a "start" payment, your time will be covered up to that point and both parties can part ways. You can even send them the PSD if they ask for it.

Having said all that, I typically do give away some time and effort in most projects, however it hasn't hurt business as we often receive repeat business as well as second and third generation referrals.

[suzstephens]

After years of struggling with pricing issues, I just spent several $thousand having a new contract written. The basic approach is a flat fee estimate (I never use the term "quote") based on X hours at $X/hr.

I have found that an amazing amount of time gets eaten up by phone and email consultation before I ever actually fire up Photoshop to start design work, so my project description always specifies X hours for phone and email consultation, X hours for design, etc. I do this to put the client on notice that he's paying for my time, no matter how he chooses to use it.

I began doing this after a client exchanged 65 lengthy emails with me, then decided to cancel the project and demanded a refund. So now my new contract specifies that refunds are at my discretion and, IF I should decide to give one, will not include any expenses or fees for time already spent on the project for any reason.

I would never, never, never charge by the page.

Suzanne

[LD]

I can understand where you are coming from. However, it all depends on your charge out rate and experiences. If you charge enough in a per-page cost and language in the contract identifies the "extras" then you are covered. If you have let the client take advantage of you with emails, well, then that's the way that one went.

I host 9 out of 10 projects that I develop and if the client decides they don't want to go on, and they owe some labour costs, then they can have the site/files as it sits, if they pay the unpaid invoice or what ever. It's when they host elsewhere and decide they don't want to continue, it can could become an issue with outstanding invoices.

I also had many many emails from one client in particular - perhaps closer to 100! As we went on my responses got shorter and shorter to the point that I verbally indicated I'd only respond to emails I thought were appropriate and to let me do my job - he eventually went elsewhere - which was the best possible outcome for this situation.

This system of per page pricing works if it not an elaborate development and the language is up front and understandable to the prospect.

Suzanne, I'd never say you or anyone else is wrong, because what works for you may not work for everyone. I've just simplified the process for the not so big projects and it works - for me anyhow.

[tfinch]

One thing that wasn't really touched on in this thread was updates. How do people charge for updating websites or maintaining them once the site is complete. Is it monthly? Hourly, yearly?

[Easywebdev]

TIME. I charge for my time.

Can I rattle out a 6 page static brochure site in an hour? yep, I can, 75 euro please. Can I secure a new server with the latest software and patch the latest vulnerabilaties, yes I can, 2 hours = 150 euro please. I want to design a new application from scratch, heres the brief, probably going to take 140 hours = conservative estimate of 10500 euro give me more details please. Thank you very much, pleasure doing business with you.

TIME, charge for your time.

Time is relative, if it takes you 40 hours to do a 6 page brochure site and you have an hourly rate of £30 sterling then charge for it.

If you have been in this business long enough then you will have developed methodologies and a library of code that will facilitate the rapid development of websites.

How quick can you work, a brickie gets quicker with each job, so should you.

Some things I take as a given when working with web "design" firms,
1. They have a basic understanding of web standards and design, they understand colors so a page they design does not appear as a blue screen to a person thats color blind.
2. They know a little bit about marketing and seo, tags and keywords, how much is too much, how much is too little?

EXPERIENCE, do you have it?

TIME + EXPERIENCE = TOP PRICE.

Your running a business on a plan with a limited budget do you want to hire johnny for a can of coke and no guarantees or hire someone with a proven track record and an ability to do the job on time every time?

I'll give johnny a can of coke every day but when I want a job done that I can't do myself I'll source a professional.

So, are you professional?

One thing a new designer must learn and understand is that some jobs are not worth it. Bargain basement hunters, shrewd buggers that are used to getting things done on the cheap, cut them loose. not worth it, walk away. An hour spent letting a cheapskate talk you into a cut price job is an hour that could be spent making money, if it smells bad from the start then walk away. An hour of your time is worth your hourly rate, you have spent the time to learn what you are doing, they are not paying you for that one specific hour but all the hours of work you have put in to be able to do a job for them within an hour.

We all know that knocking out an 6 page brochure site with a php contact form is a bit of a doddle. But there are people who know nothing about php and are selling 6 page websites with a matts formmail script for £300, totally insecure, a load of anti semantic crap code but it does a job?

What you must decide is wehre you fit in?

Are you the crap coder that hacks a site together from the available technologies and prays they never come back to you as you have no clue as to what you actually did? Forum? I didn't write that.

Are you the middle of the road designer/developer that cares about client retention, likes to learn and study and keeps current and likes working with a small client base rather than get money from whoever is willing to pay?

Or are you the consumate professional who is at the top of the tree in their given profession and eats sleeps and breathes rss feeds from the various new technologies they are tracking (they know all they old stuff (php, asp, ruby, css, dhtml, etc inside out))

What you know and how long it takes you do do what you know determines your hourly rate.

Having a different price structure for an hour of writing xhtml and double that rate for writing an hours worth of php is ridiculous. It still takes an hour, what is an hour of your time worth?


As an addendum, do not host your clients sites, do not get a reseller deal with the likes of enom to register client domains. It may seem like a good idea at the time but believe me you want as few ties as possible to your clients.
Pick one thing to do and get good at it, don't try and do it all. Get known for that one thing that you do and your rate will become known and people will come to you willing to pay you your hourly rate for what you can do. Why? because someone that your did a job for told them that you could do it.

[jameshills]

Two other things to consider when looking at pricing methodologies for websites ...

1. With a CMS, the concept of "per page" goes out the window ... if I have a joomla "blog of category" with 10 different items in it, is that 10 pages or 1? Same is true for most CMS based sites.

2. With pricing, the value isn't only in designing a website - the kid down the street (or I) can probably deliver you "a website" ... but is that kid skilled to design the site from the ground up to work as a marketing tool? - well written, SEO optimized copy? well designed menu structures? secure and stable website host? and ultimately able to offer the client consulting on how to make the new website work for them as part of their overall marketing strategy.

That's what I do, and I get paid well to do it (even if some clients simply don't see the value). That being said, I have gotten more business the more I charge though there is a ceiling at some point.

When clients come to me 30-40 days later and tell me that they are so excited that they just got their first call off the new website that makes everything worthwhile and puts everything in perspective financially. Many of my clients recoup the cost of the initial site construction very rapidly and that ultimately helps build a strong longer term relationship between them and our company.

Anyhow, ultimately you just have to have confidence in your skills and not worry about the kid. If he is that good, then just hire him

[cw1865]

Originally Posted by mykiesee

Now I'm thinking, is this a good thing or a bad thing?

It depends on your 'capture' rate. If you're capturing 100% of the quotes you issue, you're pricing is too low. If its under 100% (and it probably is), its your call!