Expert help, please

[Daisy May]

Let me state first of all, that I am a complete novice about anything to do with php, etc. The only things I have learned have come from this forum and from the regular emails.

For about four years, I have been running an online shop using 'shop in a box' software. As the site has proved to be fairly successful, I decided to have a bespoke site built for me. Back in April, I accepted a quote from a supposedly reputable web developer, and waited and waited. After threatening the firm with legal action in October, they decided that they would get to work.

This firm informed me that I would get more functionality with OS Commerce rather than bespoke, and so used that (as I said before, I am a novice, so didn't really know what he was talking about.

It appears that all the web developers have done, is copy all the text from my current site, and paste it to the new one. This wouldn't be too bad, but their layout of products is dreadful - need a magnifying glass to read some of it. I have complained about this and other parts of their work, but the developers either sigh and look at me pityingly, or just ignore me completely.

I was promised a new, really professional site so am I expecting too much in being less than happy with a second rate copy of my current site. Also, is OSCommerce software as good as having my own code written as they promised.

I am sorry if I have bored you with my tale of woe, but I really do need advice and it seemed that you were the best people to ask. I should add that the site is costing me a lot of money, (well, it is a lot of money to me) and as I was promised a professional site, am I being unrealistic in expecting one?

[compusolver]

This is an all-too-common story in web development. I got most of my clients after they'd had bad deals like this.

You wouldn't put up with this in any other type of business and you shouldn't put up with it in web development either!

Most likely your "reputable" developer is either not very knowledgable or not very reputable or both. He may be unable to write the custom code you requested due to lack of know-how. Or, he may be too busy and since he'd long ago spent your money, he decided to toss up some freeware code to appease you.

The advantage of well-written custom code is that it will do exactly what you want with no bloat. A good developer should create an "admin" section where you can handle future product/services changes without further need of his services and without you having to learn anything.

You should start any development project with a written agreement. On all large projects, I setup a message board just for that project, so that communication can run smoothly and effectively - ensuring that the project conforms to the client's vision.

You may need to call an attorney ("solilcitor"?) - another field that has its share of sleaze. Good luck to you!

[newconceptdesign]

I am not sure what was your deal with the company, but they are definitely not creating a custom application for you.

OS Commerce (http://www.oscommerce.com/) is ready, open source package. It means that they do not pay anything for it and using ready product to set up your store. With a bit of time and patience you would be able to do it on your own without any programming knowledge.

I don't want to comment on OS Commerce features, but in my opinion, the over all result is not very nice looking and you will not be able to have a custom store application.

You should really go back to the agreement with the developer and point that this is not a custom build store and if you indeed accept using OS Commerce, then you should re-negotiate your contract.

[TrafficProducer]

Hosts shopping carts:

Some hosts free shopping cart software for using with sites.

These Host carts are usually well known and respected make it an easy as possible to modify the way it looks and may use Templates to do this.

Any software would require at least some coding skills to make it look the way you want.

Online Payment, Shopping Carts, etc Links

[Daisy May]

I am so grateful for your responses. I have been going crazy trying to get things sorted out.
The original quote was for a professional bespoke e-commerce site that would be easy for me (green as grass) to handle. This quote was given and accepted in April. Last month, the web chaps said that I would get a lot more functionality with OS Commerce and that is why they wanted to use it. I mentioned that it was supposed to be a bespoke site, specially written as per their quote. I was told that they were the experts in their field! I have been told the site is almost finished and someone is supposed to be coming tomorrow to train me how to use it. To me, the site looks a mess, and compared to their handiwork, my 'shop in a box' looks first rate. If it is allowed, and someone will have to tell me if it is okay, I can let you see what they have done so far.

[EditFast]

I have also had my share of disappointments when it comes to Web developers. I now know that you MUST specify in very detailed language what you want done before an agreement is made. It takes a lot of time to create a site specifications document (or project specifications depending on the scope of the work to be done) and if it is not done in an organized manner the developer will simply not read it or not be able to follow it. A page by page description of functions, menus, graphics etc. is needed.

The problem here is that there are so many people out there who do not have the technical background to be able to create the type of specifications document that is required and there are so many developers who, unfortunately will promise you anything and tell you anything just to get their hands on the money. it really is a trial and error process to find the right programmer and after several hard knocks I now divide my projects into small parts and hire some one to do one small part. Be sure to test the completed work thoroughly. If the programmer does not fix the bugs for free find someone else. If they do a good job and do the work on time, then allow them to continue with the other work you have waiting for them.

In all cases, pay half up front and the balance upon completion to your satisfaction. If they do not want to go for this, find someone else.

Be sure to check resumes and especially references. It truly is a "buyer beware" market out there but it bothers me that there are so many unscrupulous individuals who want to do as little as possible for as much money as they can get. I am not sure why it is like this but I do know that it is also difficult from the developer's side as they are dealing with people who do not understand the complexity behind the scenes. A good developer will recognize this and try to understand what it is that the customer wants and what the customer's ultimate goal is. Once they have discussed this and come to an understanding, the good Web developer will be bale to provide satisfaction and the client will come back again and again. It took me a long time but I have finally found three good programmers who work for me. Unfortunately, they are very busy (I wonder why?) and are unable to take on more work until after the new year and I am now looking for another programmer.

[RegDCP]

I have to agree with what is being said Daisy May.

You *might* want to take a look at CRELoaded.
It uses the osCommerce "core" with more that 70 user add ons or "mods" added to increase functionality.

www.creloaded.com and since it is my favorite design program, I also have a fair bit of info about it on my site.

You really do not have to know PHP/MySQL to use it as all the admin is done in text (or html) entry fields.

Reg

[langsor]

Hello Daisy May,

I don't post here often, but your woes hit home. I'm a web developer and I clearly see both sides of the story.

First, let me say, your expectations are not out of line. If I knew what you spent for this work, I would have a better understanding of what you should expect from the designers. However, by any amount, you should at least get a functional site to the specifications you both agreed on. It sounds like you are getting neither.

On the other side of the fence, I have to say that the bar is set very low for website design. This pains me, but it is what I've seen on the web for years. There are many people who give you junk and expect thousands for it, and there are people who will give you a great site for a very reasonable rate. Usually though, if you want quality work, you will 99.9% of the time be paying what feels like an unreasonable amount for it. If you broke it down to an hourly rate, very often the designer is making less than a waiter at a decent restaurant.

What is not known to non-designers is how many details go into creating a site, especially one with special functionality like you need (even when its out of a box, it involves a lot of work that you will never see or know about).

I know of no industry etiquette that says you shouldn't share the current state of the site you are paying for. So if you want to post a link--go ahead.

I don't know if this post helps in any way? Let me know if you want me to take a look at your new site and provide unbiased feedback about the quality of what you are getting. I don't know about the merchant software they are using, so I can't help you there, I can see how standards compliant it is and how usable it is (or not). This might give you some ammunition for recourse in bartering with them to get your money's worth. They are most definitely relying on the fact that they have specialized knowledge that you don't have.


Good luck,


Kevin
kdouglas@satarah.com
www.satarah.com

[ronlee67]

Daisy May,

OSCommerce is GNU software. It is free to use and modify to fit your needs. Various people contribute new code to the project to improve features or functionality. As a result it is like a 'living document', constantly changing and improving. The problem with OSC is that the project lacks needed attention from the unpaid team leaders. Most needed enhancements must be done by picking through the various free contributions and integrating the code. I found this to be a daunting task and after three months switched to......

Another, similar GNU project is ZenCart. The project leaders started with OSCommerce as a base and build on it actively. It is a much more mature product. It is feature rich. The project leaders are much quicker to adopt well thought out feature contributions and incorporate into the latest upgrade. I think you would have little trouble installing and managing your own ZenCart site if you find it fits your needs. You can check it out at www.zencart.com.

If you choose ZenCart, the biggest challenge will likely be getting the look and feel that you want. You can get just about any look you want, but you will have spend a lot of time with stylesheets and css. This is good. It is one of the better methods of creating template based designs. You can't avoid the time required to get the look you want. Once established however, maintenance of your website should be a breeze.

If you don't get satisfaction from your current designers, and you still want to outsource the work, you may find it a bit less expensive if your designer builds upon a Zencart system. Be aware however, depending on your specific needs, ZenCart may not be the way to go. Be sure to check out the designer's own website, and any sites in his portfolio. If he/she doesn't have at least 8-10 sites in his/her portfolio and they all look good and function smoothly, I would keep looking.

Ron

[edhan]

Originally Posted by Daisy May

For about four years, I have been running an online shop using 'shop in a box' software. As the site has proved to be fairly successful, I decided to have a bespoke site built for me.

I was promised a new, really professional site so am I expecting too much in being less than happy with a second rate copy of my current site. Also, is OSCommerce software as good as having my own code written as they promised.

I should add that the site is costing me a lot of money, (well, it is a lot of money to me) and as I was promised a professional site, am I being unrealistic in expecting one?

As you have been fairly successfully running your site for 4 years, you should continue using it. As I always tell myself when something is running smoothly, don't change it. Unless it is not making money, then have to do something!

Since you have already made an agreement with them, they should deliver what they have promised.

If it is okay, let us know your link so we can view the outcome of the work done.

[Daisy May]

Oh, you are all so kind to help me like this and I am truly grateful.

I did go over the requirements for the new site and have a lengthy specification. Nowhere does it mention oscommerce. My only specification re. design was that I kept the colours, maroon, black and white and also the chest which is my logo.
This is my current site
http://www.parishchest.com and this is the new site due to go live early next week. http://parish.dev.amsoft-uk.co.uk/

When the web developers first came here and saw my own site, they said it was nice but very amateurish. They would provide me with new graphics and a far more professional site. The price quoted was £5,600 + VAT. This was about the same as several other quotes.
You be the judges and please let me have your expert opinions.

[Daisy May]

Just in case it causes confusion, the picture on the About Us page is my husband, Frank. He knows even less about web sites than I do - if that is possible!

[jnoneiliv1]

Daisy May,

I'm not a web development professional, but for what it is worth I think your current web firm MAY have done a good job. First, I think your original site while obviously not done by a professional graphics designer is really well organized, easy to navigate, friendly, and all around very well done.

I think the cosmetic makeover was done well, keeping the character of your original site. It might not look much different, but as mentioned before just polishing off the original design can take hours and hours of work. Even more important is that it looks like your web firm followed best practice design rules for keeping content and presentation separate by using CSS. If you wanted to change the color scheme, fonts, or graphics it can be done very quickly and cheaply. I think in this regard your firm really did you a favour by making future changes a snap to implement.

It appears that you have also gained a lot of new shopping cart funtionality AND possibly a good database driven backend to make it easy for you to add a large amount of new items to your online store.

It's just my impression that you may be under estimating the value you have received in the new design. I also think your firm may have done you a favour by implementing shareware for the shopping cart and item catelogue functionality instead of writing it all from scratch. I do believe there is a lot of functionality that you cannot see right now that will save you a lot of time and money in the future as your site grows.

If you site was all programmed custom, if you wanted another firm to make changes for you they would charge you more to modify someone else's code that may be "spagetti code". Now, if you had to find some one new, you would look for someone with experience with what looks like a well known shareware package. They would know what they are getting into and could provide you a much more competetive quote.

IMHO.

Cheers,

James

[langsor]

Daisy May,

I almost swallowed my gum when I saw how much you are paying for your "rebuild-overhaul". Unfortunately, value is subjective, so written project specifications might be the only thing you have to fall back on. You said you were quoted £5,600 + VAT which converts to $10,634 USD (+ tax).

Looking at your site (quickly), I find that in some places they simply copied and pasted the exact html source code that you had on your original site. The home page is one such place. It looks like your original site was constructed with a Microsoft product like Word (is this correct?). Word is not known for producing quality html, and these shortcomings have been reproduced in your new site.

When they did bother writing their own html, they seem to do an 'okay' job. Nothing fancy, but it is clean.

Not to disagree with an earlier post, but while some stylesheets (CSS) have been used to specify the look of your site, (which I do agree, is an improvement in design approach), the use of font tags and similar display tags have also been preserved with the copy and paste approach that these "designers" took.

As far as general (subjective) impressions go, I feel they improved the look...some, but not enough to warrant what they are charging for this change. The changes they made are "lipstick and rouge" to what you already had. The layout of the pages content, where all of the links are in three columns, forces the width of the page to exceed over ~80% of the monitor settings in use today (the page layout is too wide for the majority of visitors to your site), I forget the exact monitor-settings statistics I read recently. I recommend limiting page width to under 1024 pixels.

I feel it is an improvement that they added a 'Featured Products' box with photos, to your home page. The general effect of the makeover is one of improvement (the site does look better). I might have narrowed the pages and left-aligned much of the written copy, but that's my opinion.

As I mentioned earlier, I do not know about OSCommerce. In theory, packaged software is often a better choice than home-rolled (custom) software, because the developers and community of users of the packaged software can devote more time to features and stability than can a small team--just for one site. The bottom line is, does it do what you need it to, does it have the features YOU need... otherwise you could debate forever which package or approach is better.

Finally, I feel you were quoted a price for them to develop custom software for you. No other reasoning could explain why you paid so much. I would guess they tried to write it and got bogged-down or discouraged and changed over to packaged instead (they should have started with it). This is not, in my opinion, a problem as far as functionality--but it is a huge problem that you paid for something you didn't get. Since you did not get what was agreed on (and it seems unlikely they can even produce what they said), I feel you have real leverage to get a huge portion of your money back, if you were to fight this.

In all types of project design, it is a process of continuous refinements. You could ask for changes to what they've already done. However, this may be a bad tactic for you to take, because it implicitly states that you feel the basis of what they've done is worth what you paid (what they charged) and I feel it is not. You would do better getting your money back (broken contract on their end) and starting over--a wiser person. Once again, just my opinion.



Good luck again,


Kevin

[edhan]

Daisy May

I do agree with what langsor has mentioned about the price should be for a revamp instead just a 'touch-up'. You should be able to ask back some cash as not much work has been done between your existing & new site.

One last thing that I would like to point out is that if you are changing the domain name (existing site) to a new domain name (new site), then you will be missing all the benefits you have built for the last few years.

[Daisy May]

The developers are saying that they have spent too much time on the site already and claim it is costing them money. I haven't mentioned finances to them, so presumably they are working up to asking for more!

No, I have no intention of changing my domain name. The developers have just hosted the new site on their own server.

I have just telephoned the developer, told him (again) that I am not happy with the web site, and asked for my money back - threatened to go to Court to get it. The developer said he cannot understand why I am unhappy, but he will come here this evening to discuss things. God, this is a nightmare. I hope I wake up soon.

[ronlee67]

I echo the last three comments, especially the ones from James. The site DOES look better. The changes may seem subtle, but they do make a big difference in the professional appearance of the site.

I too feel the pages are too wide for most users. My computers are set for 1024 pixels screen width which is very common these days. There are not many folks using a higher resolution. Your new pages exceed that width a bit which means people must scroll left and right to view the entire page. I think the designers should bring the width down to no more that 1024 width or perhaps change the code so that your columns are a percentage of the user's display resolution (in otherwords make the page automatically adjust to the user's screen size..this is easily done in the code.) These adjustments should be without charge considering what has already been charged.

I think when you meet with the designer that you should review with him/her the comments made above by langsor. The use of stylesheets should have eliminated the need for most if not all font and display tags so the fact they pasted in your old code with these tags essentially ruins many benefits of the stylesheets... particular the ease at which you can manage background colors, type styles, etc.

The appearance and functionality of your new site is good, but was done with sloppy coding. Use this fact to come to a reasonable compromise on the price of the work.

If you expected a complete overhaul of the look and feel of your site and this was clear to the developers, they have a lot more work yet to do.

Ron

[RegDCP]

Daisy May.
I am one of the users that runs a high resolution (1680 x 1050) and I STILL have to scroll sideways.
If I go to a product page like http://parish.dev.amsoft-uk.co.uk/in...1680_3220_3238 the price hangs over the right margin and cannot be fully seen. A small amount of sideways scrolling is required. The product image on the above page is broken.

Your pages also show the same title and no description or keyword tags in the source code on the new version.
Not the best for SEO.

While I am not shocked at the price tag IF, and only if, it included writing the custom shopping system, which was NOT done. You are being had.

The system that they are using is oscommerce.
Your web guys are not too smart.
It seem they left the admin wide open and I have included a screen shot of your website's admin along with one of mine which uses CRELoaded.
You can immediately see the similarities. (And the extra functionality of CRELoaded.

Since they left the admin open I figured that they also had not protected the source files themselves and a quick check showed
osCommerce, Open Source E-Commerce Solutions
http://www.oscommerce.com

Copyright (c) 2002 osCommerce

Released under the GNU General Public License
which is the open source license used on all osCommerce pages.

As someone that has done about 22 sites in CRELoaded I would guesstimate you are paying about $530 an hour for this work.

[gitazz]

Daisy May

I am a web designer and am in the process of building an online shop for a client with an inventory of 10,000 itmes and am going to use oscommerce. I am charging them in the range of 1/4 of what you paid for a much nicer CSS controlled site with an ability for the customer to update the site himself.

Like every one has mentioned above the scrolling is annoying and that is part of basic good design. If they have not used CSS looks like they are so behind times.

But saying all that I also know how much work goes into creating a site. The best way is as some one suggested to put it in writing what the delivarables are in the initial contract and stick to it. This homework can avoid disagreement between client and developer. I know all this is too late for you but maybe you can wrangle them to fix the site a bit more.Good luck!

[Daisy May]

I do have their agreement and quote in writing, thank God, but the developers do not seem to worry about this until I mention legal proceedings, and then they do a bit more work.

Today, I sent through a list of things I was not happy with. This I was asked to do by the director of their company. Their programmer blew a fuse, was very nasty to me and complained that I was giving him extra work and thus I was delaying the completion of the site.

[NJ]

Last summer we had the task of choosing a company to build our new site http://timberbuysell.com. Since the software model is basically a classified ad system, I suggested using off-the-shelf instead of custom programming. I researched about 12 different products.

Would you believe that several of the companies had "our customer" links that were broken. One "happy customer" said that the software "sucked" when I contacted him and recommended another product. I did find one where all the customers I called said good things; so we used their product and have been very happy with the product and their service.

Due diligence paid off!!!

[edhan]

[quote="RegDCP"]
The system that they are using is oscommerce.
Your web guys are not too smart.
It seem they left the admin wide open and I have included a screen shot of your website's admin along with one of mine which uses CRELoaded.
You can immediately see the similarities. (And the extra functionality of CRELoaded.
quote]

This is a serious issue. Better do something about the security. RegDCP is right that you have been overcharge as it is not a custom work. You will need to tell them to deliver what they promise otherwise you will not pay them for the work that is not done.

[ronlee67]

In the United States you would not be successful suing them if you already paid them. Making payment is considered by the courts as accepting the work. If you still owe them money that's due when they claim they are done, don't pay it. Then let them sue you if they want to. In the meantime, document every detail that they failed to complete that was part of your contract. You will need this to answer any lawsuit they file. Do not accept the work, and do not use the newly developed website. Obviously, if they do complete the work to your satisfaction you should pay them the agreed price.

Did your contract specify that the job would be done in a workmanlike manner ( skillful; well executed: a workmanlike piece of writing. ) or similar terminology? If so, you have a shot at getting the courts to reduce the amount you should pay which may result in a partial refund (at least that's how it works in the US).

It also sounds like the programmer is the problem. If he "blew a fuse" he may be one of those temperamental types who doesn't get along with anybody. I would communicate only with the director until the matter is resolved.

Ask yourself: are you really giving the programmer 'extra' work or are you only asking for what you both agreed to in the agreement? If the work you are asking them to do falls within the agreement then stick by your guns. If they don't perform, and
1. the site is unuseable, and
2. would require considerable expense to fix, or would be cheaper to start over, ...
then you may have legal grounds to recover what you have already spent. Again, legal concepts in the UK are probably different than the US, but with that much money at stake I think I would consult an attorney (I think you call them solicitors in the UK).

One of the legal terms that applies to this situation in the US is "specific performance". It basically means that if you sue them to complete the job, you are suing them for "specific performance" or for them to perform the work according to contract. This would not apply if you just want to dump them and start over with someone else. I wouldn't do that now, but if the designers throw up their hands and quit work on the project then they will be the ones dumping and puts you in a better position to sucessfully sue for your money back.

Which brings up one other point when establishing an agreement with a programmer/designer/whatever. Your agreement should have a clause specifying the time frame in which the work will be completed. Hopefully you have both this and the workmanlike quality clause in your agreement.

Ron

Ron

[Daisy May]

In April, the developers said the site would take 6-8 weeks to build and launch. Then, in May, when nothing at all had been done apart from the graphic at the top of the front page, they said that it would all be complete and online on the 24th. August. At the end of August, nothing had changed at all.

I had a load of Fairs to attend at the end of September, plus four interviews with Family History magazines who wanted to take screen shots of the new site and write articles about it. The developers knew about the interviews, etc. and said, no problem. They had some difficulties with the site, but it would be launched well before the end of September.

The director of the company telephoned me again last night, and said that he would get the site finished to my satisfaction. When I asked him if he would add the site to his online portfolio, he said probably not, so obviously, he is not proud of it, which makes me feel great!!

Sorry, but I am not sure what this means

"Your web guys are not too smart.
It seem they left the admin wide open"
What do I need to do about this?

May I thank everyone who has responded to my plea for help. It is so great to know that all you experts are willing to help a complete novice like me. You have no idea how much I appreciate all your help and advice.

[AndrewGreen]

Hi Daisy May!

I'm a web designer (based in Dorset) and I echo most of the comments made about the new site.

Yes, the code does seem an absolute mess

I'd also say that the 'redesign' is very lazy. Whilst your existing site looks a little home-made, the new design looks like it's based on a template and is certainly not what you should expect from a professional designer - they've basically taken your text and layout and added a different (very basic design) navigation box and a different (fairly appalling) header. The width (requiring horizontal scrolling on my 1024-wide screen) reflects incompetence.

It makes me so angry to see people charging ridiculously large sums for websites (I would have charged around 1/3 to 1/2 of what you have paid) which look unprofessional and don't satisfy the user's requirements.

I would be very happy to talk to you on the phone about this whole issue (01305-871561). I am very experienced, also, (having been the legal consultant for an online consumer complaints site) in the legal ins and outs of the Supply of Goods and Services Act, which is the relevant legislation here, and never fight shy of going down the legal route, if necessary.

So, do ring me, any day after about 1pm! I know how confused non-technical people can feel, when faced with technical people hiding behind their supposed expertise and would be pleased to help you.

Andrew

[Daisy May]

Thank you very much Andrew. I will call you on Monday after lunch. In the meantime, this is the quote that I received from the web developers. It was dated 29th. March, 2006.

"Having considered your requirements, we believe we can deliver the following (in approximately 4-5 weeks from commencement):

Online shopping site

New look and feel/re-brand of the public facing pages

Credit Card payment fulfilment via third party payment gateway provider (e.g. Protx/Secure Trading – although we need to discuss the options further with you)

Product upload/management

Content Management System (CMS) for static pages

Back office automation

Automatic confirmation email to customer

Automatic order to supplier

Automatic entry into ledgers for monitoring accounts etc.

Manual entry of dispatch confirmation emails (we could provide an option for some suppliers to self service here if they are up to it!)

Simple month end reports

The total effort/cost for this would be approximately 16 man-days @ £350.00 per day = £5,600.00 + VAT.

Obviously, we would need to double-check that we can export the products from the existing database but do not believe this to be a problem at this stage.

If you are happy with the above, please let me know and we will then work up a full proposal document for you."

[RegDCP]

Sorry, but I am not sure what this means
Quote:
"Your web guys are not too smart.
It seem they left the admin wide open"
What do I need to do about this?

Daisy May.
Instead of the custom software you were quoted on your designers have taken the osCommerce open source, (free), software package and used that to setup your new site.
When they did they reworked it to remove the oscommerce logos and information in both the parts teh public will see and in the admin.

However it looks like they forgot a major part of the security in the admin, the login screen/routine.

I will not link directly to the admin here but I will PM you to show you what has been done.

Reg

[AndrewGreen]

OK - speak to you on Monday!
Andrew

[Daisy May]

Just to let you know that the director from the web developers came here yesterday afternoon. I re-iterated the problems I had found with the site, and then listed your comments. This is what he said.
1. He needed a list of my products (20,000) so copied my entire site and the loaded everything into the new site. He has removed tags, etc. when he found them.
2. He does not need password security on the admin section until the site goes 'live.'
3. The screen is set to 1024 and does not need scrolling.
4. He agreed that some of the work looks sloppy and will get his web chap to sort this out next week.
5. My site was a lot more difficult than they had anticipated on their first visit. The work is now costing them money, so they wanted to get it launched very soon but he has no idea when that will be. He wouldn't commit himself to weeks, but said hopefully, it should be on line before Christmas However, having quoted a price, he will stand by it, and try to get things sorted out to my satisfaction.
6. OSCommerce gave me a lot more functionality and was a better option than bespoke.

I must tell you that he looked rather surprised (shocked) when I mentioned your comments. He was not happy that I now had access to some great advice from experts.

Did I tell you that you guys are terrific?

[AndrewGreen]

You should make sure that you don't AGREE to him doing more work and having the site ready by Christmas. Whaetever they can bolt on is unlikely to make the site look any better, improve the messy code, or rectify many (if any) of the other problems. Personally, I think you need to be going down the route of sueing them for breach of contract and getting all your money back.

The most relevant part of the Supply of Goods and Services Act to your case is this:
"... if a definite completion date or a price has not been fixed then the work must be completed within a reasonable time ...
"The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 requires a supplier of a service acting in the course of business in England, Wales and Northern Ireland to carry out that service with reasonable care and skill and, unless agreed to the contrary, within a reasonable time and make no more than a reasonable charge."

Note the "within a reasonable time". Consumer law in the UK is very much based on the concept of "reasonableness". I am sure that no court would agree that the time you have had to wait is in any way "reasonable", so it might be best to major on this aspect and leave all the tricky stuff (which is open to opinion) about whether the work has been carried out "with reasonable care and skill" ... although, of course, there will be no harm in using that as well!

Currently, the 'Small Claims Court' only deals with cases up to £5000, but I understand that larger claims can be referred there, under certain circumstances. The advantage of a small claim, of course, is that you don't need a solicitor.

We can talk more about this tomorrow ....

[Daisy May]

At the moment, I have only paid them a third of the total price. The rest was payable on completion.

I should say that I didn't want the shop to be a total culture shock for my customers, and told the developer that I didn't want flash or anything else weird. Perhaps that is why they they designed the front page the way they did, although having said that, it is not exactly

New look and feel/re-brand of the public facing pages

as they promised.

[NJ]

To all of you that are helping DaisyMay, I'd just like to say that you guys are great! I teach Web Marketing and Design classes here in Missoula, Montana. Most of my students are small business folk in Daisy May's shoes. At the first class session, everyone introduces themselves and the site. Sometimes I think they can see the steam coming out of my ears when I hear their stories of incompetent or arrogant web contractors. I have listed WebProWorld on my online syllabus; so they will know that the web design industry has some great people like you!

Daisy May, I hope you can give those designers a swift virtual kick in the you know where. Beyond making you feel good, it will benefit all the potential clients they will con.

Since you mentioned this forum to the director, hopefully he will take the time to read this and see the error of his way. I supposed it wouldn't be good manners for you to mention who they are, but it might give them 1) a chance to respond with their side of the story, or 2) an incentive to mend their bad business policies. A technical person is too valuable to waste in shoddy business. It's such a waste of time and money to go to the court/lawyers (solicitors).

[AndrewGreen]

Aha!

You can get the name of the web design company from the url of Daisy May's new site - www.amsoft-uk.co.uk.

They are "a talent and skills based developer of high quality IT solutions" .... and I'm the King of England.

[Daisy May]

Just to let you know that just when I was on the point of starting legal action to recover my money, some progress has been made with the site.

No date for launch has been given, but I have passed on your comments to one of the directors, and he has promised to personally oversee all of the work from now on.

A huge thank you to every one of you that offered advice and help. You saved my sanity and I am very grateful.

[Daisy May]

The director of Amsoft came here again today and I advised him that as the site has still not been completed, and indeed, looks far from completion, I wanted my money refunded.

Mark Hole, the director, did everything he could to try and persuade me to change my mind - site is almost finished, launch later this week, etc., etc. I stood firm and said that they are in Breach of Contract, and he had the option of just giving me back my deposit and parting in a reasonably friendly way, or I am fully prepared to do battle in Court.

I bet I shall have a fight on my hands but I am confident that justice will be done.

Thanks again to everyone who offered me help and advice. You are the tops.

[ronlee67]

Daisy Mae....... can you give us an update?