Handling Excessive Customer Changes That Consume Your Time?

[careiley]

Firstly, my business model is to charge a flat rate for Website and CMS design. This seems to have gotten me more business than using an hourly rate in the past. So, I charge half up front and half upon completion.

My dilemma is that my clients seem to be coming back at me with tons of requests for change after change after change, even when it seems that they are happy with the site design and are just about to give their final approval and final payment.

I have even had one client that made me wait 45 days before they were ready to give me the first round of changes. I definitely know that this was my fault as I did not write anything into our contract that covered this "statute of limitations." Still, that's just unfair to the designer who relies on this as income!

Other clients are like the classic story of the moving company and the home owner, where the home owner keeps saying "No, I think I liked the couch over there... Well, maybe it would look nice over here..."

It's just not lucrative the way I am doing it now and I would love some feedback from others...

So, how do you web designers and developers overcome this issue of spending too much time on a website for changes at the end of its completion, when you didn't ever plan on being involved for that extreme amount of time? How can it be turned back into a lucrative and fair business relationship?

Thanks so much,
Alan
coloradocomputerguy.com

[JonHochman]

...we will make one (1) round of revisions which must be submitted to us within seven (7) days of delivery of the completed web site. After that, all changes will be billed at our normal hourly rates.

[martyn-it]

I have actually been both sides of the divide
I've been a corpoate buyer of web design and a designer so because I knew how long things take I think/hope I was always fair - but I know some people just arn't !
They want what they want but don't know what it is

I think it's a case of speaking with the client and always being fair putting in a time limit for revisions in the contract and communicating how much has used not -
You can have a fair idea who the B****** are when you meet them

Martyn

[bj]

LOL! Oh yeah, we've all had that client. More than once.

I once, in utter frustration, took my design completely off the clients' site (knowing they were clueless and hadn't backed anything up) and refunded them all their money with a very politely worded email about how working with them I found that it had become obvious that I just didn't seem to have the right vision for their company, and it was costing me greater than triple the dev time of any past client and that I would rather cut my losses and move on to the rest of the work in the queue, and that I'm sure, as fellow small businesspeople, they could understand. I also included links to getafreelancer.com and a couple other sites. This was after they had completely ripped apart design number three (which was exactly what they had specified) not to mention untold hours of adjusting this two pixels or making that a SLIGHTLY lighter shade of blue, or let's try this font . . .

It may not have been the best way to handle things, but truthfully, since I did that once, I've found it much easier to deal with clients since.

I've also gotten REALLY good at spotting the "problem children" within the first few emails back and forth. If I have yet to receive a deposit from them, I notify them that because of changed circumstances my turnaround time is now 10 months instead of the originally estimated turnaround. Yes, I've lost some business that way on purpose, but ultimately my life has been much less stressful.

[chebyrashka]

Well you really need to spell things out clearly in a contract if you get into that. There's no best way to charge honestly, I usually charge differently per client, some clients I have to charge hourly, some by the project.

I would recommend having a clause in your contract that any changes after xx approval are charged by the hour. And the clearer you spell your contract the better. One persons concept of a contact form can differ from what they are expecting so be clear. Usually I give a client one change also, if they go back and forth they start getting charged.

[hfgeorge]

Set your clients up with Contribute and tell them you'll charge them an outrageous hourly rate to make any changes either:

1. After 15 days of delivery, or
2. After the second draft is delivered.

Macromedia Contribute helps to keep the dumb BS typo sort of changes from bogging you down.

Good luck!

[pdstein]

Originally Posted by JonHochman

...we will make one (1) round of revisions which must be submitted to us within seven (7) days of delivery of the completed web site. After that, all changes will be billed at our normal hourly rates.

Ding, ding, ding... we have a winnner. Explain this to every client before the sale and then put it in the contract.

[timmathews.com]

Originally Posted by pdstein

Ding, ding, ding... we have a winnner. Explain this to every client before the sale and then put it in the contract.

Definitely Agree. This statement needs to be in the contract and signed before work is started.

[noel_x99]

Originally Posted by bj

I once, in utter frustration, took my design completely off the clients' site (knowing they were clueless and hadn't backed anything up) and refunded them all their money with a very politely worded email about how working with them I found that it had become obvious that I just didn't seem to have the right vision for their company, and it was costing me greater than triple the dev time of any past client and that I would rather cut my losses and move on to the rest of the work in the queue, and that I'm sure, as fellow small businesspeople, they could understand.

It may not have been the best way to handle things, but truthfully, since I did that once, I've found it much easier to deal with clients since.

I've also gotten REALLY good at spotting the "problem children" within the first few emails back and forth. If I have yet to receive a deposit from them, I notify them that because of changed circumstances my turnaround time is now 10 months instead of the originally estimated turnaround. Yes, I've lost some business that way on purpose, but ultimately my life has been much less stressful.

We've "fired" clients in the past. Similar to BJ's situation. We found too it was better to "cut our losses" than continue on a job. But these jobs didn't really get to the "completed" level. We tell the client that they should find another developer that can better understand their needs. (I DON'T refer them to anyone specific.)

We get client approval before the site goes live. Any changes after are charged at our hourly rate. "Priority" changes cost extra.

Like BJ, we've gotten better at identifying these clients before we start the project. It allows me the opportunity to build a "PIA" factor into the quotes.

[careiley]

These are great stories (esp. LMAO @ bj'story) and good advice. I am happy to see all of the diverse ideas and techniques described. Let's keep it going; this is great! :)

Here's a funny story that recently happened to me when I created a CMS site for a professional organization...

After finishing the main look and feel, they had the nerve to tell me that there was TOO MUCH WHITE SPACE on the site and that they had some good ideas on how to cure that. The most popular suggestion was to add a textured background to the site as it's main backdrop. Not just ANY texture! They wanted a LINEN TEXTURE! Yeah, that'll look Reeeaaallly professional, guys...if it was 1993 again and Frontpage templates was all that any knew!! Let's add some clouds to the background while we're at it! Geez! What a waste of my valuable time! -And what an insult to my design! What would Michaelangleo say if you asked him to paint Bart Simpson on the ceiling of the Cistern Chapel? (Well, he probably wouldn't say much today.)

Well, I digress...

Anywho, thanks for your input and keep it coming! :)

[careiley]

I think one of my mistakes may be that I show the client the website design as it is progressing along towards it's completion.

Do you guys think it's wise to wait until the final completion before presenting it to the client? -Ending up with 1 round of changes, as mentioned by JonHochman, or does this create more work?

Or does the alternative (as it progresses) actually create more work, in your opinion?

[bj]

I don't show them much until it's a done deal. And usually it's just minor changes from there, which I can live with.

[apalmer123@msn.com]

Well, we all have different experiences. I find that web design is best done as a fully collaborative effort, with the client involved at every stage. I don't want to get to the end of my development and show it to them for the first time and have them want a bunch of changes.

I only do websites by the hour. I give the client an estimate up front and some similar scope websites to look at, but each one is a unique experience and the number of iterations varies so widely, that I don't even try to make it a fixed price deal. I always say that if they have a budget, let me know, and I will keep within it. I build the site template and put in a placeholder page for each expected page with all the navigation working, then review with the client for basic layout, colors, fonts, etc, etc. When we've got the template agreed on, I fill out the details of all the other pages. I submit it to the client several times for review and comment. As you know, this step varies widely as well depending on how much input the client gives you as opposed to expecting you to craft the message.

I do some fixed price bids on larger development projects where the cost will determine whether or not they even do the project. But I always prepare a written proposal which outlines what will be delivered, and a clear statement that if the scope changes, the estimate will change, and I can get paid for extra features.

Just my 2 cents.
AP

[bj]

When we've got the template agreed on, I fill out the details of all the other pages.

Then you're doing data entry. I gave that up a long time ago and never looked back. All my projects are very short duration and client controlled after I hand them over. All are templated dynamic web aps. And my turnaround for a whole job is usually measured in business days, not weeks.

From what I'm seeing here, it's really depending on the nature of dev you're doing as to what is going to work.

[Keimos]

Hi Alan,

Firstly, my business model is to charge a flat rate for Website and CMS design. This seems to have gotten me more business than using an hourly rate in the past. So, I charge half up front and half upon completion.

It works to get you the business, so what you need to do is make sure that you have a contract that stipulates exactly what you are going to do.

My personal payment model that works for me is 50% up front, 25% on initial approval and the last 25% on completion. What you have to do with this is state in the contract that the last 25% will only meet the the limits of the approval, any further work will be billed separately

Keimos

[silveiro]

Hello everyone!
Greetins from Brazil !

I read this threat and could thinking myself dealing in same situation.....
Just waiting for: "OK BOY, ITS FINE, ILL PAY YOU"...

So, how I solve this 'issue'?

Pay method:
50% now
50% on 'final ok'

Work method
I start the work sending jpg's from the layout to the client...
Sometimes I got 'lucky' and this is ok, enough...
But sometimes is really, really, really hard to 'understand' what the hell hes wants... So your work dont go ahead...Gets 'stucked'...

Well, when this happens I invite the client to chat an online meeting, with MSN messenger or skype...PHp chat....(Choose best fit for your needs)

So in an 'online meeting' you can 'send' and 'receive' an online 'feedback'... He rejects, you 'correct' and send it back... and so on.
But this is a 'check mate' question!
On the end of the meeting is over!
He say$$$ YE$$$, 'my boy' :)
It work$$ with MOST boring clients!
:))

[RegDCP]

Originally Posted by bj

From what I'm seeing here, it's really depending on the nature of dev you're doing as to what is going to work.

Right you are BJ.
I prefer projects over straight design.

The client supplies content for an agreed upon layout.
As the webmaster I arrange the content to best serve the visitors and search engines.

Designing FOR the client is the worst possible scenario as they are rarely the target market and are too close to the product/service to evaluate the impact on visitors. (And by default the spiders).

I submit a price proposal for a site outlining what will be done, who supplies what, and specify that my version of their copy is what will be used.

50% up front, 50% upon going live as to the specifications of the agreement, (#of pages, products, etc).
If the project is ongoing then a monthly budget is, (usually), set with defined payments. (Normally invoiced on a monthly basis). If a client is not good at handling paying invoices, the project is moved to a retainer basis where the work is debited against payments.

If the client wants changes made that I know will have a negative impact on the rankings, and INSISTS despite patiently trying to educate them, then they are told to get themselves a different agency.

(You want HOW MANY items in the main navigation? TWENTY SEVEN? and a SPLASH page for the index cause it will show off your $1500 LOGO?)


Reg

[getmea]

As a consultant at a major Property & Casualty insurance company, we often run into the same situations (in a larger scale). Our remedy? Our company as well as every other major conglomerate have adopted the CMM (Capability Maturity Model) standards. Before that was Method 1. Before that was SDIP. No matter which decade we're in, the Software Development Life Cycle should be adopted for ANY work performed.

Briefly, (1) Get the customer requirements (2) Customer Signoff of CRD (3)Web Page (or Green Screen) Functional designs followed by Customer Signoffs (4) Technical designs by the SAs (5) Build/Test by the developers (6