FrontPage 2003

[dixiedld]

I have not been posting on webpro long, but long enough to know most everyone hates Frontpage!

What's the deal? Why is it so bad; because it is Microsoft? What about newbies to the web design scene? Is it not a good way to learn, or do you pick up bad habits?

sinned

[technica]

Frontpage inserts bogus Microsoft code into your page. For no reason. Just becuase Microsoft thinks your website should conform to internet explorer and everything Windows.
I used Frontpage 2002 for about 1.5 years, and switched to Dreamweaver. Please trust me, Dreamweaver will allow you to do so much more than Frontpage could have even dreamed of.
Everyone can get into why it's technically so bad, but in short:
it may look simple and incredibly easy
but taking the easy way out
normally hurts you in the end
;)

[dixiedld]

Thanks Becky for the response. It is easy. I have trialed the 40-day Dream Weaver MX-2004?? program. I did not have a book so I really fumbled through it until I got frustrated.

Thanks for the information Becky.

dixiedld

[vwebworld]

FP bashing is routine.... but folks - it is a tool,
as Dreamweaver, Coffee CUp's program, and others are.

Most of the code problems people can get into with FP
is when they use FP's features and publishing.

You should learn CSS and HTML and look into validation
requirements... but that should not preclude the use of a tool
like FP.

[technica]

I agree... learning HTML and CSS is key. All I'm saying is, using Dreamweaver from the start will make your life a lot easier when you begin to develop more advanced features for your site.
And later, as did happen to me, when you begin to actually learn about the whole process of web design, you'll appreciate how far ahead Dreamweaver is and how much it accommodates you.
Good luck !

[dharrison]

Hi dixield

I have no quarrel with FrontPage. If it wasn't for MSFP, I wouldn't have been able to start up my business at all.

All we're saying (If I may be so bold) is as with any other Visual (WYSIWYG) web design software on the market, they tend to bloat the page code, which can be a nightmare for non-Microsoft browsers.

It is easy to learn HTML and CSS, I'd say channel your energy into learning these first.

HTH

[imvain2]

From my experience [like mentioned above], the best possible thing to do is learn html and css, first.

People have many reasons for hateing FP. Some they will tell you and some they wont.

Like many WYSISWG editors, FP does add different uneeded tags and parameters that you can and should do without.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret which is another reason that designers aren't going to tell you why they hate FP!

I'm sure many designers here have come across one of these 2 scenerios.

1). Bob the small business owner knows he needs a website, one day he is roaming the aisles at his local computer/electronics store, and moseys to the software aisle. Low and behold to his surprise he sees Microsoft Front Page for $xx.xx and he can build and publish his own website. So he thinks to himself, well I do need a website and for only $xx.xx, its worth it.

So he takes FP home, installs it and within 2 days he has built a website using FP templates. He publishes his website, and sits eagerly awaiting emails telling him he has new orders, or that he has people intrested in his products/services.

Weeks pass by, weeks turn into months, a year goes by and little to no interest in his business. So instead of looking at the obvious, his first thought is "The Internet doesn't work for me", and just scraps the idea of a website.

2). Ann gets home from college and majored in computers [or not and she is "internet" savvy and wants to make some extra cash]. So she sees that many people are making money selling websites, and one day she happens to be in the magical aisle from the first scenerio and sees MSFP, and she buys it. She goes home, plays with it and builds her very own FP template website touting her webdesign skills and she will build complete websites for $150. She finds people who think they are getting a good deal and she builds a website using FP templates and publishes it. Again, like the first scenerio the website owner sits back expecting nwe customers, but don't see anything, and again they believe the internet just doesn't work for them.

=========================

In both scenerios, these people are now sitting on lazyboys, with their arms crossed and a scowl on their faces. If a real design company that can get the website found by potential clients, talks to them and says for $xxxxx we can build you a professional quality website that will be found by your potential customers. But the website owner says the internet doesn't work and has already lost the initial investment so they don't want to lose any more money.

In these cases real firms that can actually bring business to their clients, lose business because of people not knowing what is going on and trying to save money.

[cspelts]

I've used FrontPage since the first Beta version - and I still use it! I tend to spend most of my time in code view, so the bloated code problem is not an issue for me.

And just as an aside, several years ago I worked for one of the best known brand names in the world, and I even used it there. This company wasn't interested in the tools I chose to use, but in the results my work produced.

[Motherof4]

My site has been built with Frontpage exclusively. It ranks #1 & #2 in the major search engines for its popular keyword...ranks above major tv shows that ar in the same niche.

Like someone said, it is a tool and tools are only as good as the person using them. Most people here are probably more literate than I in coding and css. But I do understand what a nice site "looks" like. I have used Frontpage to get the look and slowly learned how to make it more productive.

I like this tool...it has been VERY GOOD to me!

[tfinch]

I went from writing code in Notepad to using Front Page. I loved it from the start, if only for writing tables! Yes, it puts in code you don't need but all WYSIWYG editors do that. That being said, I agree that you should learn HTML and CSS first.

I encourage you to try Dreamweaver again. As if Dreamweaver isn't powerful enough, now Adobe will be involved. All of the cool add-ons are great too. Try a day-long class to show you the basics.

I agree with imvain2 to a point. The people who do build their own websites tend to get frustrated because they don't know what they are doing and who has time for updates when you are trying to run your company? In my experience, business people who build their own websites eventually come looking for a designer to help them either maintain the site, "dress it up", or market it. As you know, there is so much more to websites than just design. Most of the time, however, we have to start over. If they would have just called us in the first place..... :-)

[rocky1]

Code Bloat would definitely be the biggest complaint I have in respect to Front Page!

I have in several instances, hand cleaned Front Page code to reduce page weight by well over 50%. This is fairly common on sites that have been around awhile, or in the hands of someone that knows nothing about code, or simply refuses to open the code and clean it occasionally. It can get waaaaay carried away too! Front Page is notorius for superceding in-line styles and formatting, rather than overwriting such, as it should. It's not uncommon to see pages with SEVERAL styles and formats applied to any given portion of content, nor is it uncommon to see entire pages of content even entire sites in that manner. In the case of the newbie learning web design on Front Page, and making frequent changes to their site, this can get ugly in a hurry... speaking from my own experience in such matters.

Have I given Front Page up entirely?? NO WAY! Wouldn't be without it. There are simply some things that Front Page does better than Dreameaver, and there are always going to be client's that want you to design a site they can work on in Front Page because they don't want to pay the price for Dreamweaver. In the case of the latter, you better have a copy handy because all things Dreamweaver do not necessarily work well in Front Page. I have seen a few glitches there. In having Front Page at my disposal however, I was able to correct those evils before turning the site over to the client.

As stated by others above they are each tools, and as any good craftsman knows, you can never have enough tools. My tool of choice would definitely be Dreamweaver, but that certainly doesn't mean I'm going to take Front Page out of the toolbox.

[rocky1]

Originally Posted by dixiedld

Thanks Becky for the response. It is easy. I have trialed the 40-day Dream Weaver MX-2004?? program. I did not have a book so I really fumbled through it until I got frustrated.

Thanks for the information Becky.

dixiedld

Try the books from Thompson Course Technology I think you'll find Dreamweaver so simplified it's unreal! Very easy reading, well illustrated, simple step by step guide to making Dreamweaver work for you!

You might find a title for the Dreamweaver version you want to work with and try Amazon, you can usually find copies for half price or less.

[dixiedld]

Hey, I appreciate all the comments. About Rocky1 comments that there are specific uses for FrontPage,

I have been playing around with php (xoops and phpNuke.. anybody have any suggestions about this?).
I may really show my ignorance here...
Let me ask this question. I can see where the home page could be done in php and utilize the FrontPage designed articles as the source for linking. My question would be how does the server handle the two at the same time, can it? I apologize if this does not make any sense.

This is what I am talking about.. http://ewcdesign.com ... the site is not anywhere near complete so please disregard the broken links and rough edges.

Rocky1, I appreciate the suggestion of the Thompson Course Technology!

dixiedld

[paydelott]

Yeah, I'd prefer to use Dreamweaver, but I can afford Frontpage, and I already have it.

Is it bad? No. No more than any other Microsoft product. I have used Frontpage to clean up really bloated, inefficient table-based layouts from Dreamweaver. Any tool can be used badly.

Most important rule for Microsoft product users:
Use the product--Frontpage, Office, etc.--as Microsoft intended you to use it. Nevermind the standards. Don't quarrel about it and try to fix it unless you're really good. Frontpage works as Microsoft intended, and it works well enough provided you really understand how to use its features.

Yes, you can use css. Frontpage makes it easy to edit basic css files. No, it won't write css for tableless, 3 column layouts. You'll need to learn css for that.

Yes, you can write xhtml that validates. But, you'll have to make a few fixes to the code--like closing backslashes for all tags including img, hr, and br.

Will it write bloated code? Yes, if you use some of the really inefficient WYSIWYG tools for tables or positioning. You can turn off most of the extra Frontpage stuff in code too. What doesn't get turned off can be removed in a global search and replace of code.

[dixiedld]

From Paul
Yes, you can write xhtml that validates. But, you'll have to make a few fixes to the code--like closing backslashes for all tags including img, hr, and br.

Paul this is one of the problems I had. When I tried to validate sites that I had submitted for critiquing, when I corrected the errors that were returned the site did not function properly. The only way to get the web design to run as intended, it resulted in validation errors.

Thanks
dixiedld

[noel_x99]

I've actually gotten jobs because I'm willing to work in FP. Some clients bought the software thinking they could make a site and realize they don't really know what they are doing. I make the site for them and they maintain it themselves. These sites actually use customized FP themes and tools.

Most of the time, I use the code view and CSS. I'm sure the code isn't always as efficient, but I like to balance time, budget, and effectiveness too. I do OK with FP 2003.

There is an issue with many programs - people confuse access to the tool with the ability to use it. Just cause you can buy FP doesn't mean you can make a website.

When I'm explaining that to people, I tell them that I could go buy a keyboard, but that won't make me a musician - even if the keyboard has "preprogrammed" music stored. I could take lessons and really practice, but I'm not going to be any good at it. I have no musical talent. I could never play professionally or even on a high amatuer level.

By that same token, someone with no design skills, no technical skills, and no writing skills shouldn't be making a professional website. Just because you can buy a tool that has templates...that doesn't mean you can make a professional site.

[kidsfreesoul]

Like Motherof4 said, "My site has been built with Frontpage exclusively. It ranks #1 & #2 in the major search engines for its popular keyword...ranks above major tv shows that ar in the same niche."

I agree. Same is with my websites. Right from the start, I've used Front Page after the tricky Homepage making at tripod. You can say, I am a tripod learner, google fan and a front page devotee! I can't use Dreamweaver now. Just like the fact that while blogging, if you use Blogger, you don't like to jump to word press! FP is easy but I only wish it can generate the RSS.XML too automatically.

- ilaxi
Edited my mod Webnauts. Links to you web site may only be in your signature.

[scarytruth]

If you’re looking at PHPNuke and Xoops just know that most of the Major Search engines don’t really like those unless you mod rewrite the Url's, but that’s a whole other monster. If I was you just stick with the basics of MSFP for now get the site up and then try and learn Macromedia software or DreamWeaver.

[scarytruth]

If you’re looking at PHPNuke and Xoops just know that most of the Major Search engines don’t really like those unless you mod rewrite the Url's, but that’s a whole other monster. If I was you just stick with the basics of MSFP for now get the site up and then try and learn Macromedia software or DreamWeaver.

[megahertz28]

I use FP to create my sites. I don't however use FP to upload content or do anything fancy so I don't need to turn on FP server extentions and dont have to deal with some of the problems with what using it's "advanced" features can cause. I am used to people bashing the tool but I always remind them that it is just that, A TOOL. Just becauase you use front page doesn't mean that you will be penalized for it. (other than from coding snobs) Try to clean up your code, follow optimization techniques, & get links & you can turn out a high traffic site in far less time than some of the other methods. Good luck.

[send2paul]

I never used Frontpage.

But I do have a mint condition, unused, unopened demo copy of Frontpage 98 which Microsoft were posting out wayback when.

One day..... I'll sell it on E-bay :)

[dburdon]

Windows works. Outlook works. Excel works. Word works. Powerpoint works.

But Microsft can keep the rest. Including IE.

Now Google pack. Hmmmm.