Outsourcing graphic design to India

[ianski]

I was wandering what people thought of the idea of using a partner for graphic design and flash in India. My expertese is PHP and MYSQL and the overall concept of the sites that we design and to be honest I am having less and less time to keep up with the design aspect of the sites. As we are a new business we wouldn't be able to afford subcontracting to a company in the UK (where we are based) or the US or Europe. I know there seems to be loads of companies in India doing this now. I know that it is much cheaper in India due to it being a developing country and the huge amount of workforce. If it is a good idea can anyone recommend anyone or tell me how to find out more information on this and finding a good partner?

Many thanks

[Eagle Imagery]

*
On the very rare occaision that I do, I would never outsource to anyone outside the UK.

If they're outside the UK, suppose they let you down? Suppose they give you a design that infringes copyright? What then? What recourse would you have? I'll bet they'd simply "disappear". :)

[brian.mark]

We've used a firm from Russia before. They do the work, set it up on their server so we can see it first, then we pay and they send the files.

The latest design for www.ToolBarn.com came from the company janeth on this forum works for. Again, they had a couple of designs on their server, we sent payment and started to implement.

If they require payment up front, I'd say stay away. If not, then I have no problems with using lower cost designers from outside of the US. The quality of work we've seen has been great.

Brian.

[MarcieZoob]

I believe in building networks close to home and supporting your own local businesses. Start with your immediate area first and then network out from there if you can't find what you need close to home.

I hate to see businesses fail in our own communities because it's a little bit cheaper to outsource to India or Russia. Come on, guys...

[Eagle Imagery]

^ Agree entirely with you, Marcie. Not supporting your own economy will only hurt you in the long run. :)

[paulhiles]

I've actually had experience of the flip-side of all this.
Earlier this year, I had a print design job from a Russian film company. Prior to that, I was approached by an Indian outsourcing company (based in London) to help with their graphic design needs. The company had all the programming expertise they needed, but no-one to do any visuals! I guess it can work both ways! :o)

Paul

[brian.mark]

Originally Posted by MarcieZoob

I believe in building networks close to home and supporting your own local businesses. Start with your immediate area first and then network out from there if you can't find what you need close to home.

I hate to see businesses fail in our own communities because it's a little bit cheaper to outsource to India or Russia. Come on, guys...

A little bit cheaper and we'd keep it at home. But when you're talking $5,000 vs $150 (that was the quotes US vs. Russian for one website), that's too much of a difference to say "I'm supporting local business". The site was even pretty simple. Only one page was dynamic, simple flash header, but quite a few forms. This is the site they did.

When it's in the same ballpark ($30/hr vs $35/hr) we keep it local as much as possible. When it is a huge difference, then we've got to consider saving the cash.

Brian.

[jacobwissler]

This is my business, I sell web design in Houston with heavy media advertising, and have most of the work done in India, South Africa and China. I have learned some valuable lessons:

1. The customer service part of a web design company needs to be local, and must speak the local language without an accent that angers consumers.

2. Web designers on complex jobs that require a lot of communication with the client must also be local. If the web designer must get to know the business of the client (for example, building an eCommerce site with 3,000 parts that the average person would not be familiar with) that web designer needs to be in the United States, so he can have constant telephone communication with the client.

3. On design jobs which require a lot of artistic talent but very little understanding of the client's business, the job can be done in India for much less.

4. Different nations have different cultures. Some people off shore do not understand the American concept of getting a job done by a deadline. In many nations, it is not considered dishonorable to delay things and miss deadlines. If you want to play on a global scale, you must accept these cultural differences.

5. Never, ever send money over seas as a deposit. Pay when the job is done. That assures the job will be done.

6. People who complete a job are entitled to immediate pay. Select a bank in the nation where your employees are, so you can get money to them fast. This makes you the employer of choice, and you will be able to hire the best talent in that country.

I hope my experiences can help some of you who are thinking about trying this. I learned these lessons the hard way.

[edhan]

We too have outsource to do web design and programming as the workload increases. The only problem we face is when things needed to resolve quickly, the problem of reaching the outsource company that is not locally has been a hassle. So far for our local outsource, we can resolve matters easier. Of course that does not mean every outsource from overseas will encounter the same problem.

[andrewtcrane]

I have a follow-up question related to this that I will post in this forum. Please read if you have experience hiring abroad.

Thanks,
Andrew

[ambassador]

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Jul 23, 2005

Interesting, I have been looking for someone who is "local" (i.e., southeastern USA) and who is very very very experienced in writing a PHP-based, search-engine-friendly shopping cart program. Thus far, I have totally discarded two different custom-written shopping cart programs written by two different individuals (consequently, I have lost about $900 USA).

Outsourcing the task to India or elsewhere has become something that I have begun to consider. Communication via english, and more specifically by english phone conversations, is my single most important concern, outside of the actual shopping cart program itself of course. Having wasted about $900 dollars to date and already being grossly over budget (i.e., the cart has now cost me $900 and I do not have anything to show for it), it seems to me that a company in India, or elsewhere, may be the only way for me to be able to afford the desired result.

Like "brian.mark" said, the cost difference is sometimes just too great to go local - especially in such cases as mine where you have already spent $900 and have nothing.


Ambassador
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[rstarkey]

I have heard many horror stories of web work coming out of India. The grammar and spelling is poor. I also do AutoCAD work & we received drawings from a contractor who had the drawings done in India. We are now fixing their mistakes. Keep the work in the US & GB. I worked with web developers in GB when I was at Compaq in Houston. They did good work (and knew how to speak English).

[Weedy Lady]

Hey, folks, don't forget to look at Canada for your outsourcing needs also. I am a customer and/or affiliate of some Canadian companies and have found that they are always prompt in answering any concerns or problems I have. I have no problem paying small amounts of money to them in advance, and where applicable they pay me on time. And they speak English.......with a really neat accent!

I don't suppose they work "cheap". No need to. But worth checking out anyway.

[mktplace]

we live in a global economy, and those who take advantage of the fact will generally come out ahead.

we are all humans, so support the human race vs. the humans who live "close to you".

if you like e-bay because there is a feedback mechanism, then you will like www.elance.com because it operates on the same principle, only you are buying human capital instead of chotskies.

elance lets you be blind to color, race or religion. post your job, let folks bid on it, compare ratings/price and hire the best person for the job.

if you don't like the results, excercise your right to vote, and chances are, those folks won't be doing much work for anoyone else.

choosing someone with a lot of good feedback will minimize your risk.

[rklwebs]

When ever I have a workload that I can not handle I outsource the work to my old college. The stdudents there have many co-op hours to fill and usualy I can get the work done for little to now cost to me as they count the work towards their co-op hours. :)
I don't know about the UK and if it is possible to do this there. But it just might be something that you could look into instead of outsourcing to another country. Check out your local Universities. You not only could be helping out a student but you may even find the perfect person to join yopur staff in the future.

[Manpasand]

Originally Posted by Eagle Imagery

If they're outside the UK, suppose they let you down? Suppose they give you a design that infringes copyright? What then? What recourse would you have? I'll bet they'd simply "disappear". :)

Yes, I agree with you but it depends on services provider and client is how much serious about the projects and transparent business relationship.

Originally Posted by jacobwissler

Web designers on complex jobs that require a lot of communication with the client must also be local. If the web designer must get to know the business of the client (for example, building an eCommerce site with 3,000 parts that the average person would not be familiar with) that web designer needs to be in the United States, so he can have constant telephone communication with the client.

I agree

My views:
I am getting lots of queries everyday and it is very difficult to differentiate the genuine queries.

Few days back I have got invitation from xmgonline.com (US Company) for outsource partner which site's design has stolen from futurevision.com.ua (Ukraine Company).

We have designed and implemented the software for one of the client in US. After implement everything in his website, he sent payment by Credit Card and after sometime he has charged back the WHOLE amount.

Besides above incident I have good relationship with US and UK companies and individuals.

IMHO we can’t clap without two hands so client and service provider both relationships should be genuine and transparent. UNROFESSIONAL peoples are everywhere not only in India :)

[brian.mark]

Originally Posted by rstarkey

I have heard many horror stories of web work coming out of India. The grammar and spelling is poor. I also do AutoCAD work & we received drawings from a contractor who had the drawings done in India. We are now fixing their mistakes. Keep the work in the US & GB. I worked with web developers in GB when I was at Compaq in Houston. They did good work (and knew how to speak English).

You've got to be kidding. Spell correcting a website shouldn't take more than about 5 minutes per page at the most (if it's a big page). That's no reason to discount their work.

As for the site I posted above, the spelling errors are from our own employees and not from the Russian firm. I get email every day that I can barely decipher from people across town. Spelling is not a strength for many people in the U.S.

Brian.

[PuReWebDev]

You'd be better off sending your excess work to a bidding pool such as rentacoder.com

You'd most likely find an english speaking developer who is willing to do the work at a reasonable price.



PuReWebDev

[web-D-zines]

The bottome line here sir, is that you simply need to find a company that operates like us. Someone willing to help, and to help save you money. That's all. We're not a "cash-cow" company. We need busines: we know we need to save people money. However, I do believe that work should stay in the U.S., so if you want to bring the work to us we will take it. It keep my American workers employed.

You have a great day, and good luck and finding a company that will help save you money and offer professionalism. Oh, wait, that's us. :)

[brian.mark]

Originally Posted by web-D-zines

It keep my American workers employed.

See, it isn't just overseas developers that have grammar issues. Anyone can miss a mistake. I've missed a few right here on this forum myself.

Regardless of where the work is done, it'll need to be proofread before it is posted for customers to see. Nothing says "Don't do business with ___" like a poorly worded website.

Brian.

[Steven1976a]

I have experienced working with outsourced IT work in Myanmar. I have found the level of service very good and always willing to do additional jobs FOC.

The level of English is always very good and doesnt worry me with the country being a previous colony of the British Empire.

I also agree with the comments of one post that although people want to keep the work at home for locals, there is a point when there is a big difference between a company charging say 15,000 pounds and stretching the job to 6 months to justify the price and someone producing work for less than 1000US in less than a month.

Steve

[dburdon]

The closer the home the better - even within the UK!!! This is simply because you need a lot interaction and dialogue between the conceptual, implementation and feedback phases. Time zones, language differences and cultural differences do not make up for all the cost savings.

I have clients who've accepted cheaper quotes from designers based 150 - 200 miles away. Everything is fine until they hit a problem. Design is so involving you close and constant dialogue.

[ADAM Web Design]

Here's what I've learned about the subject, in my time outsourcing design (which I don't think I'll do again for a long period of time):

1. Never buy service from anyone who wouldn't buy into yours. In other words, if they're telling you what's wrong with your design and any internal systems right off the bat, then they're just going to be a problem.

2. Like jacobwissler said, don't give anyone an upfront deposit.

3. To extend 3) and jacobwissler's last point, be prepared to pay immediately if the job is complete. However, if there are errors, don't settle for them fixing the errors after; they won't. Make them do the job properly and then pay them for it. If you're not satisfied, remember that it's not an employee/employer relationship; it's a supplier/customer relationship.

I got myself into more trouble paying people in full for work that was substandard just because I knew they needed the money and they promised to fix things after.

4. If you can't hire anyone you would trust to communicate directly with a client and not go behind your back, don't. You can always protect yourself on both ends with a contract for customers stating that if they hire someone from your company, there's a fee, and if the subcontractor thieves your customer, there's a fee as well. But you'd really rather not have to fight that battle in the first place.

5. Be prepared to be insulted. This is going to sound stunningly stupid, but there are people out there who will write in to insult you because they don't like certain hiring policies.

6. Some projects require little direct client communication, and some require a lot. The ones that require a lot of communication can't be outsourced unless it's done in such a way as to allow for your monitoring of the situation. Keep control of these situations.

7. Don't settle for "the best of a bad lot" just because you need help. It would be a lot harder straightening things out that "the best" screwed up than it would be just to go the DIY route.

Hope this helps. Like jacobwissler, I learned things the hard way.

[ADAM Web Design]

Originally Posted by web-D-zines

The bottome line here sir, is that you simply need to find a company that operates like us. Someone willing to help, and to help save you money. That's all. We're not a "cash-cow" company. We need busines: we know we need to save people money. However, I do believe that work should stay in the U.S., so if you want to bring the work to us we will take it. It keep my American workers employed.

You have a great day, and good luck and finding a company that will help save you money and offer professionalism. Oh, wait, that's us. :)

If you want to present yourself as a professional, you'd better get a better grasp of the English language, padre. If I didn't know any better, I'd swear you were from another country.

[PuReWebDev]

ianski I'm just going to assume your probably not American or from the U.K., because that question of sending work to the middle east is sickening.

I'm an American and a patriot. That said, I wouldn't send not one of my hard earned dollars to the middle east. There's plenty of highly skilled American workers that could use the money.


PuReWebDev

[ADAM Web Design]

I'm a Canadian, and the way I see it, what difference does it make where someone is from if they can do the job?

I'd hire an Indian elephant over a designer from my country if I thought the elephant could do a better job and I could make more money off of him. And then I'd make it back by selling design services outside of the country.

It doesn't matter where someone's from, as long as they can cut the mustard. The problem is that most designers and developers stab themselves with the knife.

[Weedy Lady]

Adam -- you brought it back to square one.

I believe the original question was whether someone from India could do the job....correctly....

And the point everyone seems to be dancing around is that anyone from anywhere who can do that is OK. That is, after you take into consideration proximity when it is really necessary.

I bet this poor ole dog is getting tired of beaten.

[ADAM Web Design]

I thought that was what I had said. If not, I was trying to. Ah well. Guess I can't make a point to save my ass. :)

[Weedy Lady]

Sugar, ya made yur point. I was jest pointin out that you done it in sech a way as to bring this yar whole ramblin discussion back to the original question.

Ya done good, hon.

(That's Tennessee talk)

[kgun]

“A little bit cheaper and we'd keep it at home. But when you're talking $5,000 vs $150 (that was the quotes US vs. Russian for one website), that's too much of a difference to say "I'm supporting local business". The site was even pretty simple. Only one page was dynamic, simple flash header, but quite a few forms. This is the site they did.

When it's in the same ballpark ($30/hr vs $35/hr) we keep it local as much as possible. When it is a huge difference, then we've got to consider saving the cash”


Yes that is the problem.


“we live in a global economy, and those who take advantage of the fact will generally come out ahead.

we are all humans, so support the human race vs. the humans who live "close to you".

if you like e-bay because there is a feedback mechanism, then you will like www.elance.com because it operates on the same principle, only you are buying human capital instead of chotskies.

elance lets you be blind to color, race or religion. post your job, let folks bid on it, compare ratings/price and hire the best person for the job”.

Exactly. Do not mix religion, feelings and business unless in extraordinary situations.


“Like jacobwissler said, don't give anyone an upfront deposit”.

I paid up front for PPC by Mamma.com, a Canadian Company.

Has anybody heard about insurance? There is a comapny in the UK, Lloyds

http://www.lloyds.com/index.asp

that insures the most.

Risk education course here:
http://www.riskgrades.com/

Rule:

If

Price (including insurance cost) higer at home than abroad

then

outsource.

If you do not do it, your competitor does, and then it may be too late.

Kjell Bleivik
http://www.multifinanceit.com/
http://www.skupot.com/

[pagetta]

I am not experienced enough to say whether outsourcing to india is beneficial or not, but I agree with the suggestion made earlier. Contact your local university, or even ones further out, and advertise for a placement student. Some students have to do a full 40 weeks work experience, I only had to do 6 weeks and I did it at a web design company locally. I benefitted from getting really involved in a lot of projects as it was a small company, they benfitted from getting cheap labour and also someone with new fresh ideas and the keeness to impress!
If you don't want a full time placement student, just contact the media school. At our uni we'd get emails from our course leader letting us know of businesses in the area who were looking for freelance workers to do design or programming.
Students are always up for jobs like this as it brings them extra cash and gives them sonething to do other than watch re-runs of hollyoaks all day! Plus it adds to their portfolio, and gives them opportunity to gain experience on a professional project.
Cheap for you, supports local community and business - everyone's a winner!