Firefox's CSS support a joke.

linknode · #1 (**permalink**) 01-30-2005, 09:52 AM

I know this is going to upset many Firefox lovers but I just downloaded the browser of the week and it rendered my CSS site terribly, unlike Netscape and other browser that show minor variations to the original, Firefox completelly misses the mark and turned my beautiful site into a Picasso.

Does anyone know any sites on Firefox and CSS?

corporateface · #2 (**permalink**) 01-30-2005, 11:29 AM

Can you post a link to the site you are referring to?

linknode · #3 (**permalink**) 01-30-2005, 02:40 PM

corporate,

Thank you for your post, the site is stil not live, but I'll be sure to post the link once it is.

Without my site in question, I'd like to hear view on FIrefox and CSS support, hearing so much about the browser I was saddened to see it turn my work into a mess right in front of my eyes.

I do see a few sites posting about problems with FF and CSS, I'll check those out to see if I can figure out how to get everything in it's place with Firefox.

in closing I would like to say that is at least worrysome and I believe that Firefox needs at least a few more improvements before I consider it linknode worthy.

Thanks again,

rivux · #4 (**permalink**) 01-30-2005, 02:50 PM

To quote Sean Connery from Celebrity Jeopardy "boy, I think you might be legally retarded".

Don't blame firefox just because you can't write proper css. And having it show up in IE doesn't mean its proper. I have never seen Firefox incorrectly display valid markup. Have you tried validating your page yet, I would be interested in the results.

http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

GuyLaDouche · #5 (**permalink**) 01-30-2005, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linknode

I know this is going to upset many Firefox lovers but I just downloaded the browser of the week and it rendered my CSS site terribly, unlike Netscape and other browser that show minor variations to the original, Firefox completelly misses the mark and turned my beautiful site into a Picasso.

Does anyone know any sites on Firefox and CSS?

Not to be rude, but I am willing to bet that it is your coding that is the joke, not Firefox's CSS support.

It is one of the top browsers as far as standards support goes. And yet despite that, hoards of amateur web designers (seemingly like yourself) who produce horrific code come into forums like this to say that "Firefox breaks my website."

Just because you can't write proper XHTML/CSS doesn't mean Firefox is a joke. It means that you are a joke for assuming that your code is so pristine. That it doesn't even occur to you that perhaps YOU broke your page is stunning. And you coming in claiming that Firefox's CSS support is a joke only lends me to believe in your amateurish level even more. You need to do some reading/research.

Fact is, 99 times out of a hundred, it's poor coding on the designer's part that causes Firefox to display unpleasant results, and likely this applies to you. Have you validated your XHTML/CSS? I'm thinking yours would fail. Firefox is likely actually displaying your page the way you coded it.

Validate your pages. If they pass validation and Firefox is still turning your page into Picasso, I will rescind all my previous comments. But I highly doubt that that will be the case.

paulhiles · #6 (**permalink**) 01-30-2005, 03:01 PM

I would agree wholeheartedly with the two comments above.

Linknode, your sense of indignation regards Firefox's support of CSS, can only be due to the fact that you have designed the site using Internet Explorer as your default test browser.

A few important points to note...
1) IE trys to display virtually anything shoved between two <HTML> tags - it has a notorious reputation for being very forgiving when it comes to displaying invalid code.
2) IE does not always interpret CSS correctly, and 3) if you had chosen to test in Firefox (and other standards compliant browsers) as you were designing, you could've avoided your current predicament.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news... but best you find out sooner rather than later!

Paul

linknode · #7 (**permalink**) 01-30-2005, 05:19 PM

paulhiles,

Thank you for your post, and you are correct in your assumption that I designed the site in IE, I'll try to redesign it in Firefox and see what happens.

The thing that you mentioned that strikes me as odd is that my code does validate, so I have to take a look at everything else and see where the problem lies, time to pull out the Xtra large coffee cup, it's gonna be a long night...

Thanks again...

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
GuyLaDouche and rivux,

You both have come in here and ripped me apart, this is a forum which allows it's users to portray opinions, right or wrong, that's why it's called a discussion forum.

This is a place for people to help people, not to put people down base on their knowledge or lack of it in a certain area, perhaps you should stop posting until you've learned how to do that.

You certainly have shown your lack of professionalism here today...what a shame.

GuyLaDouche · #8 (**permalink**) 01-30-2005, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linknode

GuyLaDouche and [someone else],

You certainly have shown your lack of professionalism here today...what a shame.

And you showed professionalism? Instead of coming in and asking for help to get your page working you come in spouting off like some clueless noob about how Firefox is a joke of a browser when it comes to rendering CSS.

I'm sorry, but if you were any sort of professional you would have tried to figure out WHY your site didn't work in Firefox. And very likely in such an endeavour you would have seen NUMEROUS others come in and do the *exact* same thing you did only to be told the exact same thing that you were told by Paul.

Fact of the matter is you obviously did nothing to try and help yourself, or you would have happened upon one of those posts. Instead, like everyone else, you come in blaming the browser rather than yourself.

I may have been harsh, but I am so absolutely sick of amateurs coming in with no clue what they are talking about acting as if they do. There have been very few instances where a CSS rendering problem that I've run into wasn't resolved relatively quickly with a few google and forum searches.

I'm sick of seeing people come in and ignorantly claim Firefox broke their web page. It shows their understanding (or lack thereof) of web design, it shows their lack of interest in even informing themselves of the very basics of designing to standards. And it's far too rampant. There's not a day that goes by without a post that is virtually identical to yours being posted in a forum.

rivux · #9 (**permalink**) 01-30-2005, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by linknode

This is a place for people to help people, not to put people down base on their knowledge or lack of it in a certain area, perhaps you should stop posting until you've learned how to do that.

Maybe you should spend 2 minutes doing some research before posting hack questions and making broad ignorant statements in your thread titles. You are right, this is a place for professionals and a professional would have done some research and learned that Firefox unlike IE, renders CSS the way it was meant to be rendered. So if your page doesn't work, its cuz you wrote bad code, its not Firefox's problem.

If you had come in here asking for help on your css issue, there wouldn't have been any problems. But blaming a browser for your issues (and blaming Firefox of all browsers) just shows how little professionalism you have.

Easywebdev · #10 (**permalink**) 01-30-2005, 11:49 PM

CSS > Valid xhtml
Rule #1 code for firefox - fix for IE.
I'm sure you have heard this before. Why, because it is true. Firefox is a standards compliant browser. If your code renders properly in Firefox then it is standards compliant. As Paul pointed out IE tries to be "smart" by interpretaing what it thinks the code means. Bad news.

Rule #2 Dont listen to anyone else, (heh, figure that one out as I give advice) dont use programs that promise "valid" code. Scrap your WYSIWYG and fire up a text editor (crimson editor is a good one) make mistakes, make more mistakes then learn from them.

Rule #3 if it works in firefox then you have learnt the lesson from rules 1 & 2, make mistakes, correct them.

If you make mistakes in your xhtml/css IE will not report them, rather it will take a best guess scenario and render what it thinks you were trying to achieve.

Once you understand firefox then you understand conpliant xhtml and css. Some people think that this matters not a jot but in the future there WILL be standards (the internet is still in its infancy) and those pages that are standards compliant may well find themselves top ranked in the search engines as they filter out the non compliant/old websites.

Code for today, plan for the future.

I replied because this is a good topic of converstaion but the original post was trollbait. DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS.

MarcieZoob · #11 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 06:50 AM

EasyWebDev said:

Quote:

Code for today, plan for the future.

Brilliant! Give that man a Guinness.

I've spent a great deal of time in the last year learning how to properly validate my site design. After 10 years of HTML, I realized I had some serious changes to make.

I love Firefox, it has opened my eyes and made me change my (old) ways.

Dragonsi · #12 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 05:09 PM

I agree with MarcieZoob,

Since downloading FF, I have realised that most of my coding was not correct, but just looked good in IE and like Marcie, I have now changed my style of designing and test in FF first and make minor adjustments to get the same result in IE.

However, I do feel for linknode who has been ripped apart for his quite harmless question. :(

paulhiles · #13 (**permalink**) 01-31-2005, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonsi

However, I do feel for linknode who has been ripped apart for his quite harmless question. :(

If it were simply a harmless question that had been asked, then linknode (Alessandro) would not have received the reaction he got.

Alessandro's post is entitled "Firefox's CSS support a joke". There then follows a completely misinformed critique of the mess that a standards compliant browser has made of his site.

If the post had read "Why does my site look like this in Firefox?", then I'm sure the replies would have been sympathetic and helpful.

Paul

Dragonsi · #14 (**permalink**) 02-01-2005, 06:02 AM

(trying not to be attacked myself) - I agree Paul, the question made me jump to protect the standard compliant of FF and should of been worded a little better. However, some members such as 'rivux' could of written their replies a little better too..

Quote:

Don't blame firefox just because you can't write proper css.

Maybe I am just feeling a little protective of our new members, please remember that we ALL started with little knowledge and experiance and I know for a fact that I am still learning everyday.

(puts on bullet proof jacket, ready for onslaught)

paulhiles · #15 (**permalink**) 02-01-2005, 06:15 AM

No worries Dragonsi, I do appreciate where you're coming from, and I agree with you that new members should be encouraged, not disheartened! :o)

Maybe some of the comments above were a little harsh, although taken in context, they are maybe understandable. This particular post from Alessandro (linknode) was made at the same time as he also posted 7-8 separate posts, giving tips on building a better website. One tip suggested you should test your design in a variety of browsers. The irony is clear for all to see, don't you think?

Quote:

I know for a fact that I am still learning everyday

Very true, me too! I would be worried if I ever stopped learning!

Paul

rivux · #16 (**permalink**) 02-01-2005, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragonsi

(trying not to be attacked myself) - I agree Paul, the question made me jump to protect the standard compliant of FF and should of been worded a little better. However, some members such as 'rivux' could of written their replies a little better too..

oh come on, if you are going to quote me, atleast quote one of my wittier statements :) Though seriously, I don't believe my comments were too harsh as people need to stop blaming the browser or other people for their issues. Take some control, take some responsibility and take some time to figure out whats wrong with things, don't just come in here blaming something or someone else.

If you expect people to take time to help you and to answer your questions, the least you can do is try to help youself first by doing some research. Too often people post questions on forums that could have been answered with a simple google or forum search, but they can't be bothered to do it, they would prefer someone else just hand them the answers.

Dragonsi · #17 (**permalink**) 02-01-2005, 11:27 AM

Well said both and I meant no insult to any member.

Forums like this are an amazing resource of information and help and spending a little time doing a search will often find all the answers needed, but I must admit myself - I have asked questions without looking deep enough..

It does seem that it is ironic that Alessandro (linknode) has posted on how to write correct code while only recently downloading FF. Hasn't that been available for well over 12 months now... Oh look, I'm doing it myself now... attacking other members.... time for a ciggie and a cup of tea me thinks....

:)

linknode · #18 (**permalink**) 02-01-2005, 11:09 PM

Hey folks, it's great to hear your opinions on new members, I'm sure the new members won't be able to wait to join after the warm feeling they'll get when reading this post.

Some of you fine WPW folk disagree with my topic title but it was designed to do just that, be controversial and get everyone talking, if I had put some lame topic on there I bet half of you wouldn't even have posted and many more wouldn't even have looked.

But oh well, if someone has to be the bad guy, let it be me, I benefitted from this topic and I'm sure others will also, and in the end, that's what I wanted to achieve.

I wish you all the best,

paulhiles · #19 (**permalink**) 02-02-2005, 05:11 AM

Alessandro, I'm glad to hear you've benefitted from the information in this thread!
I hope any new members reading through this thread will be able to see the points raised and decide for themselves.

The outcomes as far as I can see them,

1) Firefox is the most CSS friendly, web standards compliant browser currently available.

2) IE is very forgiving of invalid HTML markup. The often quoted "design for Firefox, debug for IE" is great advice!

3) Testing in as many browsers as possible whilst designing is highly recommended.

4) If you're looking for help on a specific problem, it helps to do a bit of research first. See if your problem has been asked before.

That's all folks!

Paul

shyspinner · #20 (**permalink**) 02-02-2005, 05:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Easywebdev

CSS > Valid xhtml
Rule #1 code for firefox - fix for IE.

Amen and hallelujah !!!!!!!!

Sorry, but the number people who tell me they tossed up a web page in a day/week/whatever using Front Page make me shudder. I know the poster did not say he used FP, but the mention of IE is synched with Front Page for me. IMHO any browser that will render that much bloat, and leave you open to so many vulnerabilities is just plain scary.

I used Opera about a year ago, then switched to Firefox. I developed my site with FF and added hacks/workarounds for IE.

Since I hand code, it took a long time, but in the long run, I will be the one who can sit back and relax, not needing to re-code half the site when I need to update. FF is a dream. Wasn't sure at first, but in my humble opinion it also kicks O's butt as well.

linknode: A great place to start is the forum for Firefox, I learned a lot from reading there.

http://forums.mozillazine.org/

My final thought.....I don't think Google hiring all the FF dev's is a coincidence ;-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Edited to add: I was in no way putting down Front Page Users, as I realize it is a very popular program and used by many. I have known many people who began with FP, learned more about coding and thus went to the next step and learned how to "strip down" their sites using less code once they understood what they are doing and entered into the realm of designing for many browsers at one time, so FP probably is a good learning tool for many.

Faglork · #21 (**permalink**) 02-05-2005, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shyspinner

Since I hand code, it took a long time,

If you do not already employ it, get the Webdeveloper extension for FF. It's a godsend! I rarely get excited about new features, but this really blew me off. It makes life so much easier.
http://tinyurl.com/6w4jo

Greetings from Germany,
alex