"Professional Website" - What it is???

[sudhani]

While doing a few websites for my clients I unusually get a comment that says "This part of the website doesnt look professional" ... Say colors in one example, graphics in another and use of flash movies in one more incident.

I always wonder what a "Professional Web Design" is all about??? Any ideas?

Isn't easy for a client to call it "unprofessional" when he doesnt like something and "really" don't have a clue what he actually wants in that place.

[vwebworld]

Well, a "professional" website... hmmm.
Unfortunately, that can be in the eye of the
person viewing the site.

A "professional" site meets some basic criteria:
consistancy of design, sound navigation, little
un-need graphics/animation, visually pleasing, and
communicates the purpose fo the website effectively.
There are a host of guidelines - does and don'ts,
follow them.

The second key is what is considered professional
for the company, or product, or service? For
example, you wouldn't use a "clown theme/graphics"
for a funeral home website. Here you can take your
cue from the company's existing marketing material
and that of its' competitors.

~roland

[SyrenSong]

Sometimes it's easier to look at things from the opposite direction - what isn't professional looking on a website?

1. Lots of animated gifs;
2. Lots of blinking text;
3. Too many fonts;
4. Too many colors;
5. Spelling and grammatical errors;
6. Too little whitespace;
7. Too much whitespace;
8. Inappropriate layout;
9. Music with no user controls;
10. Forcing visitors to download a plugin so they can view a website;
11. Too many banner ads;
12. Popups all over the place;
13. Too large text;
14. Too small text;
15. Too much text (scrolling for days to get to the bottom of the page);
16. Slow downloads for dialup visitors;
17. No ALT tags;
18. Low contrast on the pages (hard for older visitors, especially, to view the site);
19. Broken hypertext links;
20. Broken graphic links;
21. Inappropriate fonts (e.g., humorous looking fonts on a serious site);
22. Sites designed for larger monitors without taking smaller monitors into consideration;
23. Redirects without warning;
24. Try the Design Peeves forum for more examples of what people consider unprofessional....

[masterpeace]

Sometimes clients do say it looks "unprofessional" when there is somethign they don't like about a site deesign and they don't quite know why.

I tend to try get around this by asking more questions about what they DO want. The most important thing I can do then is LISTEN. Try ignore my own ideas for a minute and ensure I understand what they think they want & need.

Each business has its own style and "flavour". I have a couple of local wineries as clients. While for one their style and look is classy, boutique and "slick", another has made its niche in projecting a kid friendly, relaxed and casual atmosphere. For the "classy" winery, an animated gif would be an absolute no-no and very unprofessional. For the second it would fit in well.

Sure there is some difference between their products but not a great deal. The difference is in their market and therefore their "image" has to reflect that.

I find that usually when I get a comment of it looks "unprofessional", clients mean they want to project a more conservative look and feel. It does also happen the other way around. In the end, I find the best thing to do is ask LOTS of questions when I get this kind of response to draft work I have done, and be sure I have a full idea of what they want beofre I do anything else.

I am in the beginning stages of a site for a new client, but they had little info on exactly what they wanted in it. The result was that my initial draft didn't strike them but they couldn't really say why. I sent them an email which I have taken sections from and included below:

"...As I mentioned at the time, my initial draft was aimed at least to get "something" up and running, but I need more input from you about the style and look that you are hoping for in the new web site, otherwise we are wasting time on designs that are way off base.

If you could email me some info on the type of colours you would like, what "feel" you want it to reflect. For example, some wineries/restaurants focus on the family friendly and fun atmopshere, so a designer would use a more colourful palette when designing these sites. Others want a classy boutique look and the colours etc reflect this... This is important information as it changes how we aproach the concept designs...

Anything you can write or send, be it colours you like/dislike, the "mood" you want it to reflect. Think about adjectives that describe your business & pick the 5 most appropriate..."

The response from them was actually apologetic that they had not been more specific earlier and grateful that I bothered to ask more questions rather than risk another draft that was not suitable...

Ask questions... ask questios... and make sure you are listening carefully to the answers...

[Robin]

I agree with masterpeace. The most professional sites are the custom sites. Just like a good logo the site that is customized to reflect the entire image of the product/company or person that they represent are the best sites and they stand out.

One thing I think is tell tale of a BAD site is a site that is based on the recognizable templates that come from FrontPage. Regards

Robin

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robin Titus
http://www.TheDigitalHorse.com
Dressage Tests Online, with free classifieds, forums, and calendars.
Riding is simple... it's just not easy
-Anonymous

[voodooboy]

Defining a “Professional Web Design” is like defining what Semi-formal dress is. In California, where I grew up, semi-formal was a nice pair of leather deck shoes, Khaki pants and a long sleeve silk shirt. In Tennessee, where I (unfortunately) live now, semi-formal means you dust off your boots, turn your collar down and take the chew canister out of your back pocket.

Professional is all in the eye of the beholder. What you see as amateurish, may seem professional to the average viewer. A cartoonist would see joecartoon.com as a professional site, while an attorney would not.

As a designer, I look at professional as a clear, accurate representation of the person, group or company it represents. I want my site to look like, well… “Me.” I don’t want to look like Joe down the street and I don’t want to sound (or read) like Sally across town. If the site looks like and sounds like the person, group or company it represents, then it is a professional site.

When a client comes to me and says, “I want my site to look more professional.” I can usually narrow it down to the fact that they got online, looked at their competitors’ sites and liked them better than their own. Now that is not a lack of professionalism, it is a lack of one upping the other guy. It is then a matter of tackling their site and running through it (page by page if you have too) and decipher what it is about the site that they find unprofessional. Maybe they started out young and have matured, the copy sounds like a young guy talking instead of a respectable business person. Maybe the site was just some blocks of color put up to get their name online and now they realize that impressions are just as important online as they are offline.

Like masterpiece said, “It is all in the communication.” Ask questions, listen to the answers and repeat the answers back to them. (You need to know you got their answers correct, and they need to know you are listening AND understanding.) Don’t play cat and mouse with ideas. Define everything upfront before you touch your computer. If you ask the right questions and verify their answers, you should be able to nail the professionalism in their design the first time.

[kiumars]

Professional design can not be defined by a list of rules. Difference between a good looking web design and a professional design is that the first one happens ones and the second happens every time. Professional design is a combination of many things within a sales package. It is not what you see but what you do in and out even communication, collecting information, transferring ideas and above all how to guide and control the project. Forget all about design and work on your professional look and expertise as a sales person, coordinator or director of the project. Do what “masterpeace” says Listen carefully when you approach a client” and do your own long list of rules as “ SyrenSong” says when you return at your desk only but never discuss it with the client. Professional design is a combination of years of experiences. Less risk, fast work, more money, no experimental job. Remember that your creation of fantastic design and art is a bonus to your client as a surprise not the goal of your sales procedure. If you do it reverse, the client will take the benefit of having personal opinion and remove the control out of your hand when it comes to negotiation and pricing. If you go along with design and artistic feelings and show yourself sensitive and fragile, no matter of result, this is what your client might tell you “we appreciate your work very much, but if you make it cheaper then we can bring you a lot customers through this site” They thing that they are doing you a big favor. And if you get upset and all the sudden react professionally, will be too late and the client takes your motion offensive, rude and even the act of greediness. They start talking to everyone that been cheated by amatory. Well things can go very ugly and out of hand. Now whom to blame? The client? No, never and never. Dealing with clients is the most important part of a professional design process. Bottom of line, the client does not understand what a professional design means, then what are you worried about? Read their needs carefully and put the best flavor of your fantastic art on top of it. A good sales person sales before showing the product.
Design comes from your heart. Professional design comes from your mouth based on experience and practice.Go for it, strong and have ultimate confidence in yourself. Clients love to see strong characters and feel more secure and convinced.

Best regards,
Kiumars

[salubritas]

I'll chime in with a couple of (perhaps facetious) definitions of "professional web design".

1. If a site was designed by someone who designs sites for a living, then it has a professional web site design :)

2. If the site design fits with the purpose of the site, whatever that may be, its a professional design.

(1) is literally correct, but unhelpful. I personally like (2) as it should be the aim of a web designer (whether professional or amateur) to create a site that acheives the client's goals.

[jasidog]

I think it depends on who is saying it.

With some people profesional means grey and corperate. With some it's do with functionality and usability. Some might call something professional if ,whether they like it or not, it appears well made and without any real flaws.

You need to take it in context.

Ultimately it can just be used as way of saying they don't like it. As mentioned above ask questions. :)

[kiumars]

You have brought two options to define a professional design. The first one is agreed of having no relation to the subject. The second however, is further out of scope, because who defines the purpose of the site? The client or the designer? Or together? Usually clients can not see the purpose of their site deeply enough therefore, they expect that the designer should help them with the concept. For example you want to build a house and ask an architect to design your house. Your purpose is very simple at the beginning but when the architect involves into the project you will soon find out that there were a huge amount of information, ideas, solutions which direct you to a better understanding of necessities which concludes stronger purpose. So the purpose can change its true colors. Not any purpose is the right purpose. So, what purpose should be accomplished to make your second option a better choice? This is a task of a professional design not just to fit any purpose.

[salubritas]

I think the whole point of design (whether a house, car, or web site) is to meet the needs, or purpose, of the project. Of course this does not mean any purpose, but the right purpose.

Kiumars, I can understand your argument that purpose is not always a fact-based concept, but it is something that must be worked out and decided upon. If you cannot figure out why you are building a site (or house or car) then you should not be creating it at all.

A commercial web site should be driven by a business need, e.g. to grow revenues, educate customers, or build brand awareness. A personal or non-profit web site might have a purpose that is simply to say 'here I am', to inform, or to put across your views.

So, to get back to the question. A professional site design is one that meets the needs of the web site. A corporate intranet is well designed if it reflects and develops the corporate identity, and enables users to meet their own needs quickly and easily. An artist's site might be well designed if it captures the "feel" of the artist's work even if the navigation is obscure.

If the site fits the real needs of the customer (even if you are your own "customer") then it's a well designed site.

[kiumars]

Hello Salubritas,

I am very sorry for giving you a wrong impression, and talked in general not exactly addressing to you. No doubt you knew precisely how to define “purpose” on the second option. However, you were a little bit lazy in writing and gave me the chance to take it from there. The purpose of discussion is to leave doors open for negotiations and through negotiation we may be benefiting of ideas that placed directly or indirectly within the lines. We are not here to prove anything to each other. No one is better than the other or any is trying to make a statement. We are all busy with our work during the day and this Forum is a wonderful place to get together and share some common ideas together. Most of the questions that asked in this Forum are already cleared and obvious to the person who puts the questions at the first place. For example I am sure that this topic (I always wonder what a "Professional Web Design" is all about??? Any ideas? ) that brought “Sudnani” is already cleared. And it is not right to look at the writer as a desperate person looking for an answer but a person who opens op a delicate topic which can be discussed or inspired by some one else. Like the music and movies we all enjoy and maybe one word can be the inspiring point to someone, if not at least we relax and take some pressure off hard working day. All people in this Forum are professionals, that’s what bring us together otherwise we would have discussed about art and design with our neighbors and if we did would have become a boring freak to the public eyes.

Best wishes,
Kiumars

[salubritas]

Kuimars, I'm just trying to argue my point to make this an interesting debate. I agree with everything you said in your last post. No offence has been taken or is meant.

In reality, I think most people use "professional design" to mean the absence of what are normally amateur elements in a site like those listed by SyrenSong. Of course lists are a simplification - you can't avoid using lots of animated gifs if your business is selling animated gifs!!! Having said that, if a beginner said to me "I want to make my web site look professional" I think a list of do's and don'ts is ideal.

It's certainly an interesting question and I do not think there is any correct answer - which makes for a lively debate!

[voodooboy]

It's certainly an interesting question and I do not think there is any correct answer - which makes for a lively debate!

This is the whole point. There is no correct answer. When it comes to "design" it is all perception. My perception of a professional site may not be the same for you.

You could look at a lawyer’s site and say, "Now that is a professional looking site." But if a daycare owner comes to you and asks for a professional looking web site, are you going to think of the lawyers site and use that influence to create the site for the daycare? If you're a designer you aren't.

As I said before, "I look at professional design as a clear, accurate representation of the person, group or company it represents." If you go to a site and see a clown character in the logo are you going to think lawyer or daycare? Exactly! (I'm presuming you said daycare.) If the design creates an accurate perception of the person or company it represents, then it has done its job and would be in my opinion, a professional design.

[mathias]

Well from what others have already pointed out, all these comments add value to the answers.

I consider a site to be professional if it meets the goals and objectives it's intended to achieve. For any site, be it a personal or client site, has to portray fully the purpose for it being developed. If the objective is clear and works fine, then the site has achieved its value.

The other issue is in the use of the different components in building the visual interface and functionalities of the website. You can have the functionality going perfectly in the backend but if the visual looks are irrelevant to the image the website is expected to pose, that in itself is a bad website and the only conclusion anyone could have is lack of seriousness.

I think to achieve a better sense of a professional website, you have to identify the target audience. That is the majority of users for such a site. Anyone who has worked on a corporate site for serious organisations will probably explain more on the experience they go through trying to please their client.

Some big shot always looking out on where to invest their money, has no time for fancy graphics on a website, while an art collector always wants to have a feel of imagery before they enter to select on pieces of art.

Well thoughtout and structured sites, are considered professionally done. A rush layout and navigation can only be done by a novice in the game and so considered amateurish.

When a client points out that their site layout looks unprofessional, it probably isn't meeting with their goals and objectives.

The bigtime investor looking for a stock site should not say that a fun video downloading site is unprofessional because it wasn't built with him in mind.

To all this, be extremely sharp with how you present your design elements. Keep on your checklist all neccessary things to make your site easy to use and appeal to all users. I think by then, we can forget the big shot, he might also end up looking at the video site.

Anyone to add???

Matt

[mathias]

Don't know how this happened but read post above

[venezart]

The big questions.. What makes a site "PROFESSIONAL!!?" d-.-b , well before we get into that question, lets look at what the definition for "PROFESSIONAL" is. One of the definitions that I know is "A person who earns a living in a sport or other occupation frequently engaged in by amateurs."
Just like the most of us, that live, breath and compete daily in this development world of ours. So as competitors we already seen quite few amateur websites come and go through our long research of improvement.
What makes a site "PROFESSIONAL" well you as a competitor, Do you know your sport, How knowledgeable are you in your sport, think of what you seen and ask your self, "IS IT PROFESSIONAL".©

[SyrenSong]

There's a lot of great discussion going on in here. It certainly got my mind going, too!

I just got off the phone with an attorney who told me that he wants a "professional looking website" for his local bar association. He then told me he wants trees, water and blue sky. Why? The "local bar" he refers to is in the Wisconsin Northwoods - well known for lakes, blue skies and trees, as well as a great vacation place for outdoorsy types.

Personally, I wouldn't normally think of trees and lakes as being a "professional" image for a bunch of lawyers, but that's how folks think up here. The whole idea of "corporate" would be totally out of place in this neighborhood.

Another site I know of for a law firm in the southern part of the state uses a checkerboard in an analogy for their "professional" website. Does it work? Absolutely! They're a relaxed, but totally professional group of about 40+ lawyers.

The hard part in designing a professional-looking website is coming up with an idea that suits the people/company your designing the site for, as well as the people who will be using the website.

Sometimes where the people live can also make a big difference in what's considered professional.

It's not simply one thing or another that needs to be considered. It's a great many things that need to be combined in a way that works to suit the purpose of the site and the people who will be using it.

[mathias]

I suppose SyrenSong is right. In most cases here in Africa, everyone wants to have something with an "african feel". Even though I am African, this still breaks down to how african my design will be.

I still want to believe that being professional is not like getting paid for your services. It's about how well you handle a project. If you aim for the highest standard and do it exceptionally well. The comments are obvious.

Think outside the box.

[salubritas]

I agree that being seen as "professional" should not mean being paid.

I suppose that "professional" is often used to mean "high-quality" or "expert", rather than anything to do with livelihood. I was pleased to see that www.dictionary.com has 4 definitions for the word. The first is about the "old" professions - lawyers and doctors, the next two are about something you do for pay, and the last is:

4. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

Hurrah! We do not have to be making a living from web design to be correctly called "professional"!

[sudhani]

Oooo ... so many thoughts ......

But I really cant help but commenting on two things that registered in my mind

1. Listening Helps. As "masterpeace" pointed out, we need to probe and listen to the customer's requirements - This is the only way that we can understand their requirements. But I had this very pecular experience >> I was designing a site for a fashion show ......there was a team that was "reviewing" the site .... first done in flash / then in html (black and blue) then I had to change the colors again. Some wants flash and one other calls it unprofessional. One likes black and blue ... one person says she nevr liked blue ... All this happened >>> without telling me what content they are going to put on the website. And i had my nightmares!!! But the second point I am going to discuss now helped me to "freeze" the site.

2. Needs to have a sales pitch to become a "professional". Yes true ... This is the only thing helps as "kiumars" pointed out. We spend a lot of time thinking about customer requirements and the possible customers that are going to visit the website. This is the toughest part in "creating" something >> the person who is going to buy it (most of the times) doesn't have a "clarity" on what he wants >> having a good sales pitch helps!!!

This is the final version of the website: http://www.whartonfashion.com( Just remembered to post it on website review ... I am posting it there .. you can review if you can spend your time)

[Renaissancewoman]

First lets define professonal. Professional is having specialized knowledge acquired by either academic studies or experiences.

Looks does not determine a professional website. What determines a professional website is its contents and usability. If a website reaches the audience that it was intended for, then we are talking professionalism. Each website is unique in of itself. What one person might feel is professional, another may not. It's all in what yu are looking for.

You may have a website gear towards children and if the parent gets the message, then lets say that's professional. You may have a website gear towards knowledge workers and it reaches its audience ... etc.

Always remember that what makes a website professional is CONTENTS, USABILITY, CONTENTS!!!

[sudhani]

Think we are having a great discussion on the subject at the following post >>

Professional Website ...what is it?

Or you were trying to respond to the same post??

[Renaissancewoman]

Originally Posted by sudhani

Think we are having a great discussion on the subject at the following post >>

Professional Website ...what is it?

Or you were trying to respond to the same post??

I was trying to respond to the same post. Thanks.

Renaissancewoman

[kiumars]

Wow, congratulation for a very professional looking web design for the type of the client you worked for. Now I can better visualize your frustration with your client. If your client was a high rank professional fashion designer, your job was much easier and more exiting. It appears to me that they wanted you to cover op their weaknesses and their insecurities in design which made you uncomfortable and tired during the process of your design. You have done a great job for them and unfortunately they haven’t got much to show off or giving you enough materials to maneuver. Their work has no classification and even does not follow any season collection, definite trend or glamour. You can not characterize their fashion style. Looks like that, they draw their sketches after window shopping. Therefore working for such clients requires lots of nerves, specially when they feel of being involved with arts and for some weird reason have the right to squeeze their opinion into others profession. I do not think that you could have done better than that and honestly amazed that how could you survive working for them? I would have left the job the first week.

So, I was right about you, you were a professional designer at the first place. I did not know who your client was. Fashion designers are not easy to work with. You have been very patient with them and must have spent a lot more time as you should on a single project. The result of your design is outstanding, nice and clean, right colors matching the sketches. You have used shading on top and the bottom cleverly, because that has created a relaxing atmosphere for the sketches. If you hold your hands on top and the bottom somehow to covering them, then the sketches may look placed uncertain. You have placed them on a white background and gave them enough room to maneuver nicely. Darken shades have given further depth and brought the menu items closer to the eyes. You have used straight and clean horizontal lines which gives more attention to the vertical objects as models. Furthermore, you have followed the same vertical feeling on top for date, time and Venue, wisely a little bit further to left. If you have done it in horizontal order, that could have disturbed the height of your sketches. On registration page, the idea of folding sketches was very nice.

I guess after finishing this job, you definitely need a long vacation. Next Time please work for famous fashion designers. You will enjoy a lot working with them. Another good reason working for professionals is that they respect you as a professional and never disturb you at work because they never let others to disturb them while working.

Best wishes,
Kiumars

[sudhani]

Originally Posted by kiumars

honestly amazed that how could you survive working for them? I would have left the job the first week.

hahahah .... I was left with no option .... goto the website review forum (Review www.whartonfashion.com ) to learn more about the client (my friend) and why I had to create my first website >> though i have a team to do the work for me.

[brettgodfrey]

I think a professional web site is one where nobody notices the design but only the content.

The viewer should not think "this is a great/poor web site" but "This is exactly what I was looking for".

When I read a book I don't take too much notice of the quality of the binding. Whilst the cover helps to attract me I have never considered the artist or the printer.

I hope the sites I deliver for clients say much about them and nothing about me.

[kiumars]

Sudhani wrote:
Hahaha, hahaha, hahaha, hahaha…………

Dear Sudhani,

Wish I could do the same, but no never. Instead I wish you were honest.
Last night I was too tired after closing a hard working day. However, felt that it is my duty to stand for a colleague who must have suffered a lot by her/his client. Your last post gave me a wrong picture of that client and you as a designer have become a victim among some incompetent fashion designers. How naive of me to be that sensitive and protective. Therefore, I shared my sympathy with you and your situation, therefore, said “how could you survive, I would have left the scene if I were you…”
This morning I opened my mail and saw your response starting with “Hahaha….”

Why we people are so complicated? What is wrong with being open and honest to each other? I do not want to continue this, but wonder, whether you are the client and have put this wonderful topic here to analyze your own designers? Or you are writing a book about funny designers and their weird way of solving problems?

You brought such a nice topic for discussion, then, what was the point of destroying that image?

Truth is the first sign that defines an artist. I do not mind about your Hahaha thing, but I am very upset of the game you played as a designer.

Please excuse the tone of my post,
Have a good day,
Kiumars

[carju1]

Hi Kiumars,

Reading through all the posts by Sudhani I don't think he was decieving anyone here. I think this is a word understanding, language issue whereby you have both misunderstood the others meaning in both you 2nd languages (This isn't a telling off or a critisism, just my thoughts here).

Regardless if its a purly commercial contract or for a friend, most of us have been through the 6 re-designs, board disagreement senarios (I even had a "I'm paying, I decide" user once). I'm sure Sudhani appreciated you concerns and his hahaa was his way of making light of the situation - rather than taking fun of you - and he then explained the situation further so you did have the full picture.

I think what Sudhani means by "though i have a team to do the work for me" is a situation I often face whereby I am the lead designer and customer contact but I have graphics designers and programmers to do the actual work once the client has approved "my" overall design and layout and then I just project manage the site.

Regards
Julian

[sudhani]

Hi Kiumars,

I am sorry >> If I didn't make myself clear. Julian understood my thoughts correctly in the following sentence:

Originally Posted by carju1

his hahaa was his way of making light of the situation - rather than taking fun of you
Julian

Thanx Julian!!!

And remember, it was really a "Helpless" laugh rather than anything else ... because of the fact that a very close friend of mine is involved. I just can't treat her like the way we treat a customer (We can always tell a customer : This what you get for the money I get).

When I started the post, I almost pressed the quit button!!! But I couldnt really spend time in responding to all the people (like you, SyrenSong ... and all others) who came up with some really knowlegdable insights ....

And when I found time .. I was only trying to explain the "exact" situation that I went through. Just trying to make you people think what would you do if you were in a simlar situation or you might come out with another typical example from which I can learn.

Misunderstandings are common in forums like this >>> we just try to put our thoughts quickly .. and it might not give the reader a clear picture.

I have just decided not to use "hahaha" anymore in my posts .... I just need to be careful not to use any words or phrases that might hurt someone.

I am sorry, Kiumars, in case I hurt you!!!

Hope now atleast, I made myself clear!!!!

[kiumars]

Dear friends and colleagues,

My special thanks goes to Carju1 for his careful understanding and inputs as well as my sincere apology to Sudhani for taking a wrong picture of his situation.
You were right that we jump into conclusion because of the lack of information or not having enough time to read the whole history behind a subject. Sometimes our mistakes happen for good reasons to learn and define hidden values. It’s true that a designer’s brain is located inside the heart. That’s again the reason why an artist sees the world so beautiful and clean. Once again that’s another reason why artists afraid of facing impurities as if of a definition of the word distrust. Design is not only dealing with drawing tolls and computer but public relation and friendly communication which are the core of inspiration. The candle wouldn’t light without matches. Recently Rocky came with a caring topic in this forum and I was very touched and praised him ever since. He mentioned that a couple of our Canadian colleagues had a car accident and asked every one to write for them. That was so nice and makes us to believe and trust in each other’s faith and manners.
I really was not hurt by the “Hahaha thing” in fact laughing is healthy and much better than grieving. My sadness was due to getting a wrong picture of the situation that you were in and therefore asking you kindly to forgive me on that. However, I became very sensitive by putting myself into your situation dealing with a group of inexperienced fashion designers who wanted you to make them look great out of nothing. That work was too good for that client, but never should be presented as job reference to the board of Armani designers, unless to make them understand that the job was done to the need and the level of the quality design and performance of the client that you were working for. Your client had only a dozen of primitive sketches to tell the world what? And you as a web designer expected to do what? If you have super imposed your design, then the site represented you instead of your client, and that is a big mistake to do. As Brettgodfrey said earlier in this forum “I hope the sites I deliver for clients say much about them and nothing about me.”

I still believe that it is so important for a designer to have the courage to refusing projects that does not feel to fit in. That’s what I do, not when I was young. Those times I was getting so exited of taking in of any coming assignment as a potential job. Today, I study the project very carefully and try to see whether it is anything for me or should refer it to someone else. Twice I had inquiries to design porno websites and I turned them down immediately. However, a week ago had a nice inquiry regarding September eleven, and that is what I love to work for. Some projects I like so much that I even love to do it with no charge. I have done some of those and earned a lot spiritually rather than materially.

Sorry for a long writing, and must stop hear because I am very behind a tight schedule and have to hurry up before Monday.

Well, thanks again for clearing a better picture and a wonderful topic to discuss.

Best regards,
Kiumars

[sudhani]

Hi Kiumars,

Its ok it happens sometime ... we are soo busy sometimes that we cant really fo through everything meticulously. Thanx, now you understood!!!

After you raised a point that you need to be a good salesman to sell your website to the client, I really started thinking about it ...... And it did work for me .... and i feel it works!!!

Now I am just wondering what specific points we need to say when we design a website .... like what we need to say about colors, graphics .. etc we used ... I think you can throw more light on this ... any ideas???

[kiumars]

Hello Sudhahi,

Thanks a lot and welcome back. About some further inputs, followings really work for me almost on every case. However, what I learned is based on those tremendous bad practices in past. Let me give you a short picture of my experiences. I was born in a famous art family and practiced nothing but arts the whole my life. I lived alone since 18 and traveled all over the world, graduated in 3 major academies of arts. My goal was never to change courier even if a day facing financial difficulties will stay on top and never give up my dreams. I was young, enthusiastic, energetic, honest and full of ideas and very potential.
Now, look what happened. Too shy to deal with people, too shy to speak about fees, too shy to negotiate about terms and conditions in an agreements. However, too eager to give an open heart to the most challenging work when in most cases appeared to be nothing to challenge for. To define the last part, is very important. Sometimes we take a job too seriously, which is in fact of less importance to the client and because we are too exited, unintentionally make the client scared and uncomfortable to work with us. This happens a lot. Young designers speak more than they should. More talks means less control over the situation. Clients do not have enough room to capture a long speech and go unplug long before the speech ends.
Loosing one job after the other, made me to realize that the blame was not on my clients but me. I started to focus more on PR and sales issues and little by little built up a strong character able to discuss, negotiate and control a pleasant communication until to close a positive conclusion without even giving a clue about my design. That part remains as a magic card in hand to surprise later. At this point you have the chance to turn the table and make the client exited enough to wait for your delivery. The reason is logic, because when you seat in front of your client, you must make this clear that even you won’t know about the perfect design matching their needs, unless to spend some more times to learn and study about the nature of their business. I listen very carefully and keep eye contacts and make my questions very simple and short. I do not make notes during conversation, because that is too formal and a sign of insecurity. If they ask whether you should take notes, just say, not yet is necessary, let me to get a general idea and will return to collect more details later. This way you let them to feel comfortable and relax while talking. Never talk about other samples or speak negative. If they start with showing you some samples done by the others, just look. If they push you to give your opinion, It’s wise not to jump into discussion. If you do, the subject changes and you loose control. You can say, that it is too soon for me to judge whether those samples have any significant relevant to their needs.
Now, before I continue with every possible occasion, am sure that you noticed that it is all about creating an atmosphere not demonstration. The following atmosphere or scenario is my favor:
Have your client to challenge to make you interested in taking the job. Make them a success to hiring you not vice versa. During the first meeting let them to have the doubt whether you are willing to take the job. When you say yes, that means you have understood the project and committed to the work. That “YES” should not come easily from your mouth. If it comes out, worth a lot to your client.
Now back to your question, whether to talk about colors or graphics. I think that I have already answered to that. You should not know about the outcome of your design yet. You have already sold your participation as a designer to your client. Now you are ready to return to your office and start creating your masterpiece or whatever you may call it. That part is the shrine of your imagination, a forbidden temple to outsiders. During design process all doors are closed to others. And the client with full respect will be anxiously waiting for your call for the next meeting. Take enough time and do not hurry. When you are ready go only with one best proposal, never with several solutions. If you do, the job will never come to end, and in most cases the client starts with drawing lines or putting wrong colors on your sketches.

Now, how to start a new design? Below is my way:
One week relaxation, and during this period never start putting any idea on a piece of paper. I trust my feelings rather then relaying on academic backgrounds or any experiences before, Never look after duplication of ideas. First week is to see from inside not through the eyes. Have you ever practiced meditation? That’s what more looks like. Tense minds can not be creative.

The last important issue:
There is a big different between a sales type of person like a car dealer than a sales person who sales his/her own arts. The first one is the skill of selling without believing in the product, the second one is the one who absolutely has the belief and trust in the ability of doing the job. That confidence should be strongly noticeable to the client at the first meeting. After you said “YES” to your client do not start the job prior receiving at least 50% down.

One more last thing:
Take the job that you really fit in, and it is more than OK to say “NO”. Give your “YES” the highest respect as you can. That is an unbreakable, irrevocable, unconditional commitment.

Conclusion:
The whole scenario is similar to relationships between a man and a woman’s first day of dating. What do you expect? Honesty, confidence, understanding, not jumping into any conclusion, not to be over exited, letting the other to speak first, no self boasting, stop talking about others, creating an atmosphere of comfort, avoid promising much, no pushing attitude, make the next meeting even more exited. Above all, the excitement of discovering an untold mystery is the key too keep the relationship more interesting . That mystery is the answer to your questions about the colors and graphics. If you disclose those too early to your client, will no longer be considered as a mystery.
Art should first strike the artist before shaking the visitors. Let it bloom naturally.

I am still at the early stage of learning. Next year what I have said today will be of my past bad practice. That’s the mystery of life. After all there are no rules, we just make them to sound good rather than to work better for us.

Best regards,
Kiumars

[dancedevils]

I do not know about anywhere else, but in the UK the term 'professional' is used to describe a service that is payed for.

Something that is not professional looking is not worth buying. (As in PAYING FOR!)

[kiumars]

Hello Dancedevils,

You have just posted two short sentences each of different meanings.
The first sentence does not describe the concept of “professional” and if it does in London, may be that’s why you pay the highest lawyer fees in the UK “150 Pounds per hour where in the States they pay 150 US Dollars” Not mentioning that English lawyers are working too slow and charge more hours on reading documents.

The second sentence is also wrong because you said “professional looking” what about functionality and performance? What about the budget and customers needs? What about false trends or lack of technicalities? The term of "Professional looking" may work better for make up artists not web designers.

Best regards,
Kiumars

[dancedevils]

Erm actually no. I meant what I meant in those sentances and they both meant the same thing in original English if Americans could only speak it!

I live in the part of the UK where buying things is cheaper than in America so I do not know where you get London from. Where I live, we practise and easy way of life and tend to live longer than anyone else inthe UK thanks.

[sudhani]

Originally Posted by dancedevils

I do not know about anywhere else, but in the UK the term 'professional' is used to describe a service that is payed for.

Something that is not professional looking is not worth buying. (As in PAYING FOR!)

Yes I think this is another convention across the world!!!

The more you charge, the more professaional you become. Am I right ;)