Google manipulating search results in favor of Adwords

[imagolfer]

Google, The Big Engine That Should (not do what they are doing).

I found that Google has manipulated their search results by requiring searchers to enter multiple search terms separated by commas in order to find my site. Otherwise my website www.pinespringsgolfcourse.com is not even in their results ranking according to www.googlerankings.com and my own google tool bar by entering a single search keyword phrase. I have tested it up to 1,000 positions. Not there.

When entering any of my search terms as a single keyword phrase, the only way searchers can locate me is via Google’s Adwords Ads. They show up when using only a single keyword phrase, as they should.

But, the manipulation is clearly evident when you enter three or more of my search terms separated by commas.

Then I rank #1, but there are no Adwords Ads on the page with the other regular listings. Strange, uh?

Their Adwords ads only show up with my adwords ad when you enter a single search term. This is normal and Google knows very well no one enters multiple search terms or phrases separated by commas.

Therefore, the ads do not show up when entering multiple search terms. They are programmed to show up with one term for the Adwords ads as my website is manipulated to only come up with multiple terms with separated by commas.

Further, even two search term phrases will not pull me up. The searcher must enter three or more search terms to see my regular listing separated by commas.

You can see the evidence for yourself at http://www.pinespringsgolfcourse.com...e_ranking.html. I have taken pictures of my browser and the google ranking tool and posted them to prove my findings. I have documented in detail what I am claiming.

See for yourself and keep in mind that I’m surely not the only one this is happening to. I posted a little information at Webmaster World a few weeks ago when my regular listings went MIA after signing up in the PPC program with Google and another company. I was furious and the other company gave in and “relisted” all my listings with all search terms. Google would not.

After repeated request from me asking where is my website was they just kept sending back emails stating everythig except where my site was. I told them I was not complaining about whether I was number 1 or 5 or 800. The point was that google bot had visited my site repeatedly but I was missing. I found out why I was missing.

After that post someone posted a reply stating the exact same thing happened to them. I have read many similar complaints. I can verify mine.

Everyone having problems with positioning should test their search terms, but I suspect they have other ways to hide websites also.

Michael

[Duncan Pollock]

Michael. You have me somewhat confused or are you, I'm wondering, not setting your AdWord campaign(s) up the way you could/should do.
Your ads appear for a variety of search words and phrases that you choose. They can be as many or as few as you wish, and the only thing that can go wrong is that an ad gets deleted because its CTR is below the minimum .5%
How, then, can you say that your ads appear only for a single word instead of a phrase? Are you using that one word alone as a keyword and not including the phrases you think should also make your ads appear?
In turn, I don't understand your reference to entering multiple phrases separated by commas. Since when is search supposed to be done this way? Surely, you enter one phrase at a time, find the results it produces, and then put in a second phrase for a second set of results, and so on and so on? The only place where phrases get separated by commas is your site's metatags, isn't it?
With all due respect, I'm tempted to recall the saying that "the fault, dear Brutus ...."

Duncan

[imagolfer]

Duncan,

You don't get it! Just click on the provided link and see if you begin to understand. You are making uninformed conclusions without viewing the details. My post clearly states that there are pictures available.

Do you work for Google?

Michael

[imagolfer]

Mr. Pollock wrote:
Your ads appear for a variety of search words and phrases that you choose. They can be as many or as few as you wish, and the only thing that can go wrong is that an ad gets deleted because its CTR is below the minimum .5%
How, then, can you say that your ads appear only for a single word instead of a phrase? Are you using that one word alone as a keyword and not including the phrases you think should also make your ads appear?
In turn, I don't understand your reference to entering multiple phrases separated by commas. Since when is search supposed to be done this way? Surely, you enter one phrase at a time, find the results it produces, and then put in a second phrase for a second set of results, and so on and so on? The only place where phrases get separated by commas is your site's metatags, isn't it?

Mr. Pollock,

I am not complaining that my site does not come up under the Adwords ads, THEY DO. My site does not show up in the regular listings anywhere within google's listings, UNLESS YOU ENTER MULTIPLE SEARCH TERMS. Then I rank #1, but the adwords do not show up and they should not show up unless you enter one keyword search term.

The point is google is manipulating their search results by requiring a searcher to enter THREE or more search terms to locate my site.

Visit the page with the link provided and see all the pictures of my browser and www.googlerankings.com browser and see if there is not manipulation by google.

I can not manipulate google's results. They obviously can!

Try all of my search terms in your own browser.

I am in the top five with MSN and Yahoo with each of my search terms. I was listed with google UNTIL I signed up with google's adwords program.

By the way, Google made up my ads using the search terms I gave to them.

Michael

[JayDrake]

Originally Posted by imagolfer

I am not complaining that my site does not come up under the Adwords ads, THEY DO. My site does not show up in the regular listings anywhere within google's listings, UNLESS YOU ENTER MULTIPLE SEARCH TERMS. Then I rank #1, but the adwords do not show up and they should not show up unless you enter one keyword search term.

I've looked at your screen capture, I've also done some quick searching and taken some time to look at your site. What I see is that your front page appears to be reasonable on the front end, with several mentions of golf course, Tyler, Texas which is where I started my own searching.

When I peeked at the source, however, I was horrified. It was quickly apparent that the web editor you use creates an awful lot of mess in your code that I recommend getting rid of or at least trimming down. Google's spider may not even see any of your content because of all the code it has to sift through to find it. Your index page does not validate and requires a plugin, both of which may cause trouble for Google's spider. In addition to these potential difficulties, when I checked for backlinks to your site I came up with a grand total of 1. From WebProWorld, as a matter of fact. While links from WebProWorld are certainly links and should count for something, it can be expected that the value should be fairly low based on the dissimilar 'themes'.

In all, I think it is preposterous for you to feel like your site should show up for single search terms above other sites which are better optomized for those terms like golfcourseportal.com which comes up first in a search for 'golf course tyler texas' (without the quotes) showing a listing of Pine Springs Golf Course.

Certainly when you begin to add more phrases or terms to your search that are on your site you will find yours floating to the top as you exclude those which do not include the phrases or terms you are looking for as being less relevant.

My recommendation is to spend time on cleaning the code of your web site, optimizing for those key phrases that bring you the most traffic (which can be determined from the successes of your paid listings) and generally work toward making your site better for both the Search Engines and your visitors rather than trying to find conspiracies that simply don't exist.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

The point is google is manipulating their search results by requiring a searcher to enter THREE or more search terms to locate my site.

Visit the page with the link provided and see all the pictures of my browser and www.googlerankings.com browser and see if there is not manipulation by google.

This does not show any form of manipulation. I cannot fathom how it is that you make a leap from your poor ranking to manipulation except that you would prefer to blame Google rather than yourself for poor rankings. I honestly do not mean to be insulting in any way, but your site needs a great deal of work from an SEO perspective. (Mine does too!)

Originally Posted by imagolfer

I am in the top five with MSN and Yahoo with each of my search terms. I was listed with google UNTIL I signed up with google's adwords program.

This is entirely irrelevant. There are certain things that are common between each of these and other things that are completely different. I have many top spots in Google that I don't have with MSN or Yahoo and vice versa. I would love to think that I knew how to please them all every single time, but I don't and until I do I can expect my performance to be partly good fortune, but holding to some very basic tenets will certainly help anyone out with most, if not all, of the Search Engines.

1. Clean, understandable and validated code.

2. Content. Lots of it with your target key phrases in mind.

3. Links. High profile sites are better. Sites in the same industry as you are better. Sites that you do not have to link back to are safer. There is no penalty for being linked to.

4. Patience. Do something. Wait. Watch. Tweak. Move on to something new.

[imagolfer]

Jay Drake wrote:

When I peeked at the source, however, I was horrified. It was quickly apparent that the web editor you use creates an awful lot of mess in your code that I recommend getting rid of or at least trimming down. Google's spider may not even see any of your content because of all the code it has to sift through to find it.
_______________________________________

You clearly have more experience than I have. I would gladly accept any and all the advice you are willing to give me.

Even accepting what you have to say still doesn’t exclude the possibility for my site being manipulated.

Googlebot has indexed my site over 10 times in the last month. They clearly know I’m there, they just don’t allow my site to be pulled up.

Yahoo and MSN have had no problem “seeing my site”. I have ranked in the top 5 of every one of my search terms since I started my website.

Google begins their explanation about how to rank by first emphasizing the word [b]“relevance”[/b] as to ranking. What is more relevant to a searcher? Links, backlinks, and more and more links, maybe some bells and whistles, or simply being able to locate golf courses in tyler or east texas by entering keyword phrases related to finding golf course in east texas?

A million links to and from my site doesn’t make me any more or less relevant to being a golf course in the tyler east texas area. However, you get 90% of irrelavent searches. But you always show up if you are a sponsered ad.

Also, google is the only search engine that produce the results I have documented with single and multiple results.

You picked “tyler texas golf course” as listing a directory that has me included. That is a directory, not my site. I am not listed under any of my search terms. The overwhelming presence of directories are using bait and switch techniques to lure you to their site only to find out their true goal is to sell vacation packages, from Las Vegas to Florida to around the world. How are they relevant to local search terms for area golf courses?

If a searcher enters “tyler texas golf course, east texas golf course, golf course in east texas, golf course in tyler texas, etc., I believe they are attempting to locate a golf course in tyler texas or east texas.

With all due respect, I think you are viewing my post through “google eyes”, as you so strongly did with Andilinks on her findings.

About conspiracies: Is it just a coincidence that my post is slipping down the page and older post are moving up, or is that just the way this forum works? I really don’t know, just curious.

By the way, I read dozens and dozens of post that claim they have the links and backlinks, all the bells and whistles, and still can't show up or are losing their ranking.

I can't stress enough that relevency should be king!!

Ok Jay, I've given you alot of questions. Can you respond to my post and issues without making the behind the door technical issues that Goolgle wants us to believe?

Again, googlebot has no problem "seeing my site". The dude comes by alot. I viewed their cache on my site and they had all pages cached.

Michael

[imagolfer]

Well I see how the forum works. You make a post and jump back to the top. Makes sense.

Micael

[imagolfer]

Well it seems so far that WebProWorld is more independent than WebmasterWorld.

I made the same post at Webmaster World about google and they deleted it very quickly!

Here is what they said:

From engine
Subject Re:Google manipulating search results in favor of Adwords
To imagolfer
cc Brett_Tabke,Shak
Date 5:57 pm on April 27, 2004 (utc 0)

Hi and welcome to WebmasterWorld.
I read your post and, regretably, I had to remove it from our system.
The WebmasterWorld Terms Of Service does not allow such specifics to be detailed.
In addition, with the nature of the alledgement, we need to consider protecting the board from potential legal disputes which may arise today or in the future.
Thanks for understanding.
engine
WebmasterWorld Admin
cc Brett Tabke & Shak

Does every deleted post get sent directly to Brett Tabke and Shak? Is that the basketball player?

Could the actual translation be this: We are in bed with Google and we must protect their interest. You can not be too negative against them. Maybe they have alot of stock riding on the upcoming IPO.

The "forum" can not be responsible for a person making a post of their findings and furnishing proof to back it up.

Didn't think of it before, but if I'm on to something, then maybe someone will get onto it.

Michael

[AceWildCard]

Welcome to the manipulative world of Google.
Ive been there , done that, especially when they pulled their famous "Update Florida" manouver.

With a PR 6 , and topping the charts my site was pulled for no reason other than it was successful.

Secondly I did take screenshots and kept them for memories as well as proof of their actions.

Next problem, any time at the forums at webmasterworld.com that I say anything with evidence that proves google was guilty of manipulating results, the post simply doesn't get allowed at the webmasterworld.com forum. I feel there is insiders there as well, as speculated by many others worldwide. I get an angry rude response from the administrators there, or they simply delete my posts, even if i change identities and point out evidence politely. I rarely go there anymore, no sense, cant trust the google news anymore, god knows what will pull next.

I do not go to the webmasteworld.com website without first flushing my temp/cookies, in fear of their monopolizing search result tactics. I have found and read many issues regarding sites being pulled because of insiders at that forum.


The bigger they are, the harder they fall.
Won't be long before we all find out "inside" deciept from their employees.

My moto is "Submit everywhere else", and don't let them get their hands on my information, they don't deserve it :). Don't let them worry you, worry about every other search engine. You'd be lucky to be in #1 spot on google for any time, because of their "Manipulative Result Manouvers".

They took the "Search" out of "Search Engines" and installed "Manipulation".

Theres my 2 cents.
Do I trust and like google? No.
Reason why? They disrespected both myself and thousands of businesses worldwide.

I dont trust a damn thing they do.
Welcome to the world of google chap.

[cbp]

I know this was a private message to me from Iam agolfer, but I am posting the message here for a public response as the sillyness of it deserves it:

You must not be paying attention or you must work for google.
Want proof?
See my post Google is manipulating search results in favor of Adwords.
You can see proof for yourself at the link provided.

Obviously you believe in conspiracy's to accuse me of working for Google - that is a silly allegation. I do not. As for not paying attention, that is another silly allegation - I am actually in Australia and for the last 12 hours have been having dinner with my wife, having a 8 hr sleep, went to the gym, had breakfast - so I am not ignoring this thread - I just live in a different time zone!!!. You have again painted yourself as a blinded conspiracy theorist by making such silly claims. Just based on this alone, I can tell whatever your wrote is likely to be wrong - but I will read it anyway.

You are very wrong in what you are saying and what you are offering is not even close to proof. Duncan Pollock and Jay Drake have offered some good advice - take it. There is plenty of other good advice here at WPW on how to rank better.

Your site just ranks poorly due to changes in teh Google ranking algorithm. Nothing to do with Adwords.

If you choose to follow some other threads here you will see that sites come and go all the time - ie their ranking changes. I have some sites that increased in the ranking when I started using Adwords - others decreased. One site recently had a big jump in rankings - the only thing that was different is that I changed the ceral I had for breakfast on that day. All you are claiming is that your site went down when you started using Adwords - hey, I clapped my hands and the phone rung .... cause and effect?? I have seen many sites go up when they started using Adwords (cause and effect?). I have seen them go down ...

You really have two choices:
1) Believe in this conspiracy, continue paying for Adwords and continue to rank badly
2) Get over it, work out what the problem is, improve your site (its only PR4), etc

The problem with believing in the conspiracy of (1) is that it blinds you to trying to find the real reasons in (2).

CBP

[jstarkweather]

Lol...I thought the staff here was a bit anti-Google when I first started getting my emails.

Guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.

I think you should fix your site and then come back when it's fixed. Otherwise you are just expending a lot of energy over something you can't control.

Jim

[jstarkweather]

Oh and you should definately change your <TITLE> tag to read:

<TITLE>Pine Springs Golf Course of Tyler, Texas</TITLE>

Title tags are very highly weighted by all search engines.

Cheers,
Jim

[Duncan Pollock]

Michael: Other posts have shown that we're here to help you not heap praise on Google. As cbp suggests, you'd be better to drop the conspiracy idea and look at the consensus you're being presented with.
In any case, the whole purpose of AdWords is to give you a position on the first page of results regardless of where/whether your site itself appears.
This is what you pay for and that is what you're getting whenever anyone punches in one of your keywords (although I still raise my eyebrows at your idea that people will punch in multiple phrases separated by commas). But there's no mention whatsoever by Google that one of the benefits of an AdWord campaign is a guaranteed, let alone better, natural search position.
And sure, their idea is to make money every time someone clicks on your ad, but, forgive me, what in heaven's name are you wanting people to do instead? Keep drilling down through the result pages until they find you and then click on your link rather than on your ad, which they've been able to see -- and will have kept seeing -- from page one on?!
If you don't want to continue with Ad Words, drop them -- which you're free to do any time because Google doesn't make you sign up for a non-cancellable period.
And no, I don't work for Google any more than any other WPW member does that I'm aware of. However, we do try to make sense of what Google does and to govern ourselves accordingly -- as we're urging you to do.

Duncan

[imagolfer]

Mr. Pollock,

You still are missing the mark.

I stated that NO ONE USES MULTIPLE KEYWORD SEARCH TERMS. BUT THAT DOING SO IS THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN LOCATE MY SITE.

You need to stop responding until you review all of my screen shots that proves my allegation.

How can you continue to reply without even taking a look at my screen shots of my findings.

I am very suprised that you still think I think searchers use multiple search terms.

I am claiming that Google is using manipulation so that SEARCHERS MUST USE MULTIPLE SEARCH TERMS SEPARATED BY A COMMA to find my site. Every one knows people only use a single keyword or keyword phrase as a search term.

Please read and view my screenshots and then I think you will get my point.

Michael

[cbp]

You need to stop responding until you review all of my screen shots that proves my allegation.

Absolute rubbish. They don't come close to proving your allegation - haven't you noticed that no one beleives you?

Your site just ranks poorly. Period.

I think its pretty obvious why (eg keyword placement; lack of links etc)

CBP

[Dave Hawley]

Why do I have visions of imagolfer posting with alumina foil wrapped around his head :o)

imagolfer, you will never listen or take heed of anyone that is not singing from your book.

[imagolfer]

cbp,

Your integrity suffers. You should be ashamed of yourself.

You intentionally misrepresented the email I sent you. That email was in response to your defending google so strongly against the post that Andilinks posted on a similar subject. My entire post to you is right there under your post of you criticizing her findings on google search corruption. She made the same comment of not paying attention in the market.

I have read many of your post and you always defend google. I not only told you who I was, but told you to read my post. You have made multiple posts putting down people who make negative comments about Google. I referred you to my post to see proof in the pictures.
_________________________________________________

cbp wrote:
I know this was a private message to me from Iam agolfer, but I am posting the message here for a public response as the sillyness of it deserves it:
Quote:
You must not be paying attention or you must work for google.
Want proof?
See my post Google is manipulating search results in favor of Adwords.
You can see proof for yourself at the link provided.
_________________________________________________

Did you hire a private investigator to determine who sent the PM, or did you just look at the top of the email? My full name was there. Very ignorant statement inferring that I was trying to hide who I was.
_________________________________________________

Cbp wrote:
Obviously you believe in conspiracy's to accuse me of working for Google - that is a silly allegation. I do not. As for not paying attention, that is another silly allegation - I am actually in Australia and for the last 12 hours have been having dinner with my wife, having a 8 hr sleep, went to the gym, had breakfast - so I am not ignoring this thread - I just live in a different time zone!!!. You have again painted yourself as a blinded conspiracy theorist by making such silly claims. Just based on this alone, I can tell whatever your wrote is likely to be wrong - but I will read it anyway.
_________________________________________________

My stating you must not be paying attention was regarding your refusal to accept in any way that google could be corrupt in different posts you have made. You are blinded.
__________________________________________________

Cbp wrote:
You have again painted yourself as a blinded conspiracy theorist by making such silly claims. Just based on this alone, I can tell whatever your wrote is likely to be wrong - but I will read it anyway.
__________________________________________________

Wait a minute, you have made an entire post misrepresenting my statement to you, stating you can tell I am wrong, yet you haven’t even read the evidence presented. And I’m blinded!!! You are the one blinded and all “google eyed”. Now do you see how bias for google you are?
__________________________________________________

Cbp wrote:
I am actually in Australia and for the last 12 hours have been having dinner with my wife,
__________________________________________________

Having dinner with your wife for the past 12 hours…just how big are you?

It is amazing that the most critical replies are from folks taking up for google WITHOUT viewing my evidence.

That is what makes you and the others that put down the notion that goggle is doing what I claim seem bias in favor of google. Why do you and others like you spend so much time making posts against negative ideas or statements about google? You do not first review the facts and understand the allegation, you just start putting down the post and adamantly defending google. Or, maybe you just will not comment on the evidence after reading it in order to cloud the air with negative comments about the post.

By the way, you like repeating "I clapped my hands and the light came, but clapping my hands had nothing to do with the lights coming on".

I have a better one that usually rings true: Where there is smoke, there is fire. There are far too many allegations and google won't take the witness stand.

Michael

[cbp]

You intentionally misrepresented the email I sent you.

RUBBISH - I cut and pasted exactly how it was written to me.

All I can do is repeat what Dave said:

you will never listen or take heed of anyone that is not singing from your book

CBP

[imagolfer]

To Dave and cbp:

You simply make ignorant and vague rude statements without responding to the facts. You can't make any common sense opinions as to why the results show what they show. The facts speak for themselves, but instead of foil, you both have on blinders on and attack instead of analizing the facts in an intelligent manner.

Why? Because you can't argue with the recorded results. If you can, please do so without trying to discredit me. Discredit my findings or explain why my findings do not prove google is manipulating search results.

Make an attempt to explain the results I furnished instead of posting only attacks.

cbp, you posted an email about an entirely different post on a different subject that was refering to a Andilinks post. Fess up to everyone and tell the truth.

My post to you was in response of the way you and Jay were attacking her. You were rude and disrespectful with her. She handled herself very well and you couldn't handle her. She clearly put you in your place, as she did Jay.

You are entirely wrong about no one agreeing with me. A previous post and the email I am recieving definately agrees with me.

Now, if you two would, please make some comments or your own arguments as to why the results show what they show.

I have only made sarcastic responses to your attacks. When one is only rude, trys to discredit, and attacks the messenger, it appears that person simply can't accept google does anything wrong. So what is ones motive to only attack instead of comment on the subject posted?

Michael

[cbp]

I think fathom meant this message to go here and not in another thread, so I am taking the liberty of posting in here:

There is 100% no correlation between Google SERPs and Google AdWords or Google AdSense.

I do (use) both with 70+ websites and 100+ PPC campaigns, some websites do SERPs & PPC, others just SERPs but started with PPC.

I rank #1 on 1000's of terms and have PPC positions at #1 to #7, and PPC budgets which I manage and as such pause campaigns at times.

Results go up and down all the time, and positioning in PPC do as well.

But I have never, ever seen a direct correlation between pausing/cancelling PPC and drops in SERPs at consistent intervals... more importantly -- I have seen drops in SERPs when running adword which suggests (using some members logic) I should stop using AdWords to receive the opposite.

Taking screen shots of Google flux and comparing this to AdWords (or not) is simply showing "flux" not evidence that you have uncovered a plot.

People use AdWords to get "more clicks" and rank to get "more clicks" thus doing both is "worth more" than either alone.

You also have a big hole in the theory... the "ad" isn't important to Google as Google makes no money on "just the ad" therefore the ad itself is worthless, and any conclusion on "just ad" and "just ranks" is worthless as well.

Your theory must be supported by only those ads that "got clicks" and then pause/stop... as well as showing superior competitiveness in SERPs against listings below it... as if you are "bearly ranked #1" the theory is flawed by traditional best practices to get ranked and not even bearly believable.

How did you resolve these issues as they weigh heavily on your conclusions... or did you?
_________________
Forum Rules
eMarketing Synergy!

[cbp]

Discredit my findings or explain why my findings do not prove google is manipulating search results.

We have - you just do not want to listen.

without responding to the facts

I think your credibility for facts took a nose dive the minute you accused me of working for Google.

CBP

[fathom]

Originally Posted by fathom

Yes I did write this - but baffled how it got in the other thread

Originally Posted by cbp

I think fathom meant this message to go here and not in another thread, so I am taking the liberty of posting in here:

[Dave Hawley]

Michael, what is it you hope to achieve by your actions. Nobody here can help you anymore than they have. Why not contact Google with your conspiracy?

[JayDrake]

Originally Posted by imagolfer

You clearly have more experience than I have. I would gladly accept any and all the advice you are willing to give me.

Okay, let's start here. Hopefully I can be clear in what I say and we can all get along. :)

To begin with, my qualifications are as follows: I am a web developer/designer. I once owned my own company which did a variety of things from web design to pc repair to networking and I actually made good money with it for a few years but the stress and long hours did not work well with family life, so I headed back into the job market, did a few different things of technical nature which most recently (3 1/2 years ago now) landed me at my current job with PlanHouse where I get to do pretty much all of the jobs I have been doing for the five years previous. My primary duty is web development and design with secondary duties in network and server management/administration. We run our own web/mail/dns server (patched redhat distribution with php/mysql on apache, cyrus and qpopper for mail with bind for dns) and the site I deal with on a day to day basis is, for a company our size, rather large and at times unwieldy.

It was not until about a year and a half or two years ago that we really decided that search engine optimization was both valid and necessary, and since that point in time it has been a very large part of my job to learn what I can about SEO and employ it in those ways which would benefit the company in non-abusive ways. (Or ways which the search engines, Google especially, would consider penalizing our site for.)

Over the first year we moved from non-existant in the Google search to the top 800 in the first six months and the top 200 after a year. Needless to say, while this was a large change, I was not greatly encouraged at this time, but I pressed on, continuing to learn both the techniques that others had discovered and the underlying theories and ideals of organic searches. We have moved since then to be on the second and third page (10 results per page) of Google for our primary search terms of 'home plans' and 'house plans' respectively. We are now working on the hard part. That last 20-30 rankings to get to the top of the search. I am confident that staying our course will slowly push us up to those enviable positions.

In this, I have a few thoughts. First, slow growth is good growth. Shooting to the top spot happens. Usually when it happens it means you are benefiting from some flaw in the results, though I suppose that it is possible for one to absolutely nail it with their SEO. Most of the guaranteed placement companies out there that use what are considered by many to be shady tactics will indeed shoot you to the top like this, but after a relatively short period of time you will drop back down, possibly further than you were in the first place, and other companies which use the same methods will be ineffectual. Take your ground slowly and hold it.

Second, if Google (or another SE) dumps you down for no apparent reason, like during the Florida update, do not despair. They -do- make drastic changes at times then they do what they can to fix things if they find that they have damaged their results.

Last, organic search results are the most important thing to Google. This is true in one case simply by the fact that they sell those search results to others to use in their own search engine applications and if their results aren't good, those partnerships end which is an obvious loss of revenue. The other is that their other revenues depend entirely on searchers going to their web site. If their organic search is no good, the searchers do not come. If no searchers come, noone has reason to advertise with them, pay for sponsored links, etc. They would lose all credebility and the days of Google would be over.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

Even accepting what you have to say still doesn’t exclude the possibility for my site being manipulated.

Okay. At a certain level we must trust Google. Technically speaking Google employees with appropriate access and expertise could literally pick your site out and throw it to the bottom of the results.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

Googlebot has indexed my site over 10 times in the last month. They clearly know I’m there, they just don’t allow my site to be pulled up.

It's quite evident that your site is indexed and your site is found, just not in a favorable position based on the key phrases you want to target. This we will work on.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

Yahoo and MSN have had no problem “seeing my site”. I have ranked in the top 5 of every one of my search terms since I started my website.

Love it or hate it, Google's algorithm is certainly not the same as Yahoo's or MSN's. That's alright. We don't have to hurt your rankings there to get you optimized for Google.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

Google begins their explanation about how to rank by first emphasizing the word [b]“relevance”[/b] as to ranking. What is more relevant to a searcher? Links, backlinks, and more and more links, maybe some bells and whistles, or simply being able to locate golf courses in tyler or east texas by entering keyword phrases related to finding golf course in east texas?

Okay. I think I mentioned that you have appropriate text on your page. This is good. Very good, really. To me it is of greatest importance. Google does and/or has, however, worked with a somewhat complex popularity system which is one of the deepest mysteries of the engine. How does it work? We're not allowed to know, but many people have done their homework and come up with some reasonable guidelines, and in some cases people from Google have actually said yes or no to a few things here and there.

First, some guidelines that I follow which are based on various theories which have shown success, responses from Google employees and spokespeople in this and other forums and some bit of sensible application of the theory and ideals of organic search:

1. No link to your page will penalize you.
2. Links from similar or themed pages may (should?) be worth more.
3. Links from pages which are popular in and of themselves (based on links to them) are worth more.
4. Links away from your page reduce your popularity rating as you are sharing it with the site you link to.
5. Links from your site to a bad neighborhood may result in penalties.

Why does Google hold these popularity contests? Credibility. If you told me you were a great cook I would have nothing to go on but what you say. I don't know you, so I cannot trust you. If a dozen people say you are a good cook, but I don't know them, you gain some credibility, but I still have my doubts. If Willian Shatner and all of the Iron Chefs point to you and say, "Now there's a good cook," I will beg to sit at your table. This is the very basic premise of PR. Is it a good thing? I think so, but others would disagree strongly. Does it exist? There is some discussion about that going on right now, though what I've seen thus far suggests it still does.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

A million links to and from my site doesn’t make me any more or less relevant to being a golf course in the tyler east texas area. However, you get 90% of irrelavent searches. But you always show up if you are a sponsered ad.

You're right. But a million links says that a million other sites see value in you and, if the links are text links, they say what it is that is valuable about you. Regardless of what the text says, however, even a million completely crummy links let's Google know that those sites believe in you, and Google can then assign a basic value to those links and see what it is you have to say about what your value is. If Google sees that the site linking to you is about fish, the link is about fish and your site is about fish, it will know that you are about fish and other sites about fish say so. This is good for your credibility.

[quote="imagolfer"]Also, google is the only search engine that produce the results I have documented with single and multiple results.[quote="imagolfer"]

Yep. Google has it's own unique, and generally better way of doing things.

[quote="imagolfer"]You picked “tyler texas golf course” as listing a directory that has me included. That is a directory, not my site. I am not listed under any of my search terms. The overwhelming presence of directories are using bait and switch techniques to lure you to their site only to find out their true goal is to sell vacation packages, from Las Vegas to Florida to around the world. How are they relevant to local search terms for area golf courses?[quote="imagolfer"]

Well... I agree that the directory listed is less interested in you than in selling a vacation or whatever else it is that it targets. However, their site is well optimized for the search term. To beat them you have to do the same.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

If a searcher enters “tyler texas golf course, east texas golf course, golf course in east texas, golf course in tyler texas, etc., I believe they are attempting to locate a golf course in tyler texas or east texas.

With all due respect, I think you are viewing my post through “google eyes”, as you so strongly did with Andilinks on her findings.

If by 'viewing through google eyes' means that I am looking at it from the perspective of what I know about the google search engine, you are right. I don't mind if Andilinks or anyone else looks at the data I give and says my facts aren't. To me that's her and other's loss. I'm not the best and I'll be the first to admit it, but I do know what I am doing and I look at SEO first from the perspective of the ideals and theory of organic searching and then from the technical standpoint because each of the search engines is attempting to reach that point where the best results come up naturally without need for human interference.

I have no doubt that your site can be number for the phrases you choose. In an edited directory it would almost certainly be higher than many, perhaps all, of the sites listed in the organic search. It's late now, so I won't go into great detail, but I'd like to help you optimize your site and I'm sure others would be happy to pass along their experience with you as well. I recommend looking at this from the point of view that there are things on your site that could be done better, not that Google has it out for you for any reason at all. This will likely endear you to others in the forum much faster and will probably lower your stress level a notch or two as well which is good for you. (I don't want anyone having strokes or heart attacks before we can see this through!)

Originally Posted by imagolfer

About conspiracies: Is it just a coincidence that my post is slipping down the page and older post are moving up, or is that just the way this forum works? I really don’t know, just curious.

Heh... Ya figured that one out. :)

Originally Posted by imagolfer

By the way, I read dozens and dozens of post that claim they have the links and backlinks, all the bells and whistles, and still can't show up or are losing their ranking.

I can't stress enough that relevency should be king!!

Wow... Finally done. Just about 3am so it's off to bed. I recommend going through the code of your site and removing extraneous tags that aren't used to display anything. This would be mostly meta tags not including keywords and description tags.

Go to w3c.org and use their html validator after that and find out what does and doesn't validate, fix what doesn't. If you are uncertain what the problem is, post it. If noone else helps, I'll get around to the post and do so.

Start looking into getting links. It really is important with Google. Possibly a good idea would be setting up some sort of partnership with other golf courses across the country to do some link trading.

Put this into a google search and find out how many pages on your site are indexed:

site:pinespringsgolfcourse.com "www.pinespringsgolfcourse.com"

More is better. I see 17. If all you have is 17 pages that's good for now. We can optimize and clean all those pages, then see what other benefits we can come up with for you.

Just because I happened to check while writing this, I see that today 1,500 pages are indexed by Google at PlanHouse.com. I expect this number to grow rather quickly over the next few months. In some ways, I am finding that large sites do very well with Google in some ways. Time to think about expanding that site or creating a complimentary site, possibly. :)

[simonm]

Wow, this is just like driving along the motorway (freeway to those from the USA) and you see a couple of idiots driving dangerously. Do you slow down and avoid it? no you catch up to see how stupid they are and risk joining in the crash!

So a web site with almost no incoming links - in particular none from sites with a context the same as the web site - complains that it is not well posted on Google. Also the overall page optimisation for search terms is poor - text as an image, a theme competing for very popular keywords. And then the site owner claims there is a conspiracy to artificially lower his rank and position.

Google deals with 4 billion web pages, for each page it has to have a serial number and many attributes such as PR, keywords, backlinks, forward links, IP, context of page and website, etc etc. Do you really think it has so much spare capacity that it is going to discriminate!

[Dave Hawley]

bah! another Google employee ;o)

[simonm]

Ha Ha Ha ...

[trsiyengar]

Well, the above comments make one to ponder a while, whether Simmon & Dave Havely are get paid to spread word & go against Google!

This sort of discussion already took place in the other thread, http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic...18394&start=25 where replies for Andilink's questions were recieved.

The MOD may better lock this post, before it reaches its unhealthy arguments.

Simmon & Havely may add my name to Google's Paid Servent's list; :) LOL ; but I lost heavily to Google, by way of MADADSENSE account! (By this way, will I get a check from Google??) Haha! Haha!!

[imagolfer]

fathom wrote:

There is 100% no correlation between Google SERPs and Google AdWords or Google AdSense.
__________________________________________________ ___

I will simply say that anyone that can state the above statement surely must realize that they or no one else can make that claim and maintain credibility.
______________
fathom wrote:
You also have a big hole in the theory... the "ad" isn't important to Google as Google makes no money on "just the ad" therefore the ad itself is worthless, and any conclusion on "just ad" and "just ranks" is worthless as well.
__________________________________________________ ___

Clearly a misquote. Never stated any such words. You must have read that somewhere else or misunderstood my point.
______________
fathom wrote:
Your theory must be supported by only those ads that "got clicks" and then pause/stop... as well as showing superior competitiveness in SERPs against listings below it... as if you are "bearly ranked #1" the theory is flawed by traditional best practices to get ranked and not even bearly beleivable. __________________________________________________ ___

Your assumption above is simply wrong. Your comments are of no relevance to my findings.
______________
Simonm wrote:
Wow, this is just like driving along the motorway (freeway to those from the USA) and you see a couple of idiots driving dangerously. Do you slow down and avoid it? no you catch up to see how stupid they are and risk joining in the crash!

So a web site with almost no incoming links - in particular none from sites with a context the same as the web site - complains that it is not well posted on Google. Also the overall page optimization for search terms is poor - text as an image, a theme competing for very popular keywords. And then the site owner claims there is a conspiracy to artificially lower his rank and position.

Google deals with 4 billion web pages, for each page it has to have a serial number and many attributes such as PR, keywords, backlinks, forward links, IP, context of page and website, etc etc. Do you really think it has so much spare capacity that it is going to discriminate!
__________________________________________________ ___

Why are the attacks and name calling necessary? Why do you few, which are a minority, take it so very personal when a negative finding or post is made against google and insist on discrediting someone so aggressively?

What are your motives? What makes you so angry and vicious?

WHY DOESN’T ANYONE THAT DISAGREES EXPLAIN WHY ENTERING MULIPLE SEARCH TERMS WITH COMMAS PULL UP MY SITE WHEN WWW.GOOGLERANKINGS SAYS MY SITE DOES NOT EXIST IN GOOGLE‘S INDEX?
THEN IT SHOULD NOT EXIST REGARDLESS OF THE NUMBER OF SEARCH TERMS YOU ENTER. I SAY BECAUSE OF MANIPULATION. NOT A SINGLE PERSON HAS ACTUALLY MADE A COMMENT ON WHAT I REPORT, ONLY ATTEMPTS TO CRITIZE ME AND MY SITE.

Surely someone has an explanation of why a site that does not exist in google’s index all of a sudden does when manipulating the search terms.
___________

Cbp wrote:
I think your credibility for facts took a nose dive the minute you accused me of working for Google.
__________________________________________________ ___

No, my credibility is not even an issue. The search results speak for themselves.

I apologize if it offended you. The statement was simply made in jest after reading many of your post categorically denying that google is ever wrong. Show me a negative or even compromising post that you have ever made on google.

That is why I made the comment in jest. Does that justify the attacks and attempts to discredit me? No.

I have had several folks to tell me my home page is well optimized, including the next person I will quote.

Also, simon stated that I am competing with highly competitive keyword terms. Not the case! Only a few hundred people on the web enter my keyword phrases per month. I’m sure most know how to verify that. That’s in no way completive in relation to the web. But it is hard to find a golf course listed because of the unrelated junk pulled up.
_______________
JayDrake wrote:

Okay, let's start here. Hopefully I can be clear in what I say and we can all get along. :)

To begin with, my qualifications are as follows: I am a web developer/designer. I once owned my own company which did a variety of things from web design to pc repair to networking and I actually made good money with it for a few years but the stress and long hours did not work well with family life, so I headed back into the job market, did a few different things of technical nature which most recently (3 1/2 years ago now) landed me at my current job with PlanHouse where I get to do pretty much all of the jobs I have been doing for the five years previous. My primary duty is web development and design with secondary duties in network and server management/administration. We run our own web/mail/dns server (patched redhat distribution with php/mysql on apache, cyrus and qpopper for mail with bind for dns) and the site I deal with on a day to day basis is, for a company our size, rather large and at times unwieldy.

It was not until about a year and a half or two years ago that we really decided that search engine optimization was both valid and necessary, and since that point in time it has been a very large part of my job to learn what I can about SEO and employ it in those ways which would benefit the company in non-abusive ways. (Or ways which the search engines, Google especially, would consider penalizing our site for.)

Over the first year we moved from non-existant in the Google search to the top 800 in the first six months and the top 200 after a year. Needless to say, while this was a large change, I was not greatly encouraged at this time, but I pressed on, continuing to learn both the techniques that others had discovered and the underlying theories and ideals of organic searches. We have moved since then to be on the second and third page (10 results per page) of Google for our primary search terms of 'home plans' and 'house plans' respectively. We are now working on the hard part. That last 20-30 rankings to get to the top of the search. I am confident that staying our course will slowly push us up to those enviable positions.

In this, I have a few thoughts. First, slow growth is good growth. Shooting to the top spot happens. Usually when it happens it means you are benefiting from some flaw in the results, though I suppose that it is possible for one to absolutely nail it with their SEO. Most of the guaranteed placement companies out there that use what are considered by many to be shady tactics will indeed shoot you to the top like this, but after a relatively short period of time you will drop back down, possibly further than you were in the first place, and other companies which use the same methods will be ineffectual. Take your ground slowly and hold it.

Second, if Google (or another SE) dumps you down for no apparent reason, like during the Florida update, do not despair. They -do- make drastic changes at times then they do what they can to fix things if they find that they have damaged their results.

Last, organic search results are the most important thing to Google. This is true in one case simply by the fact that they sell those search results to others to use in their own search engine applications and if their results aren't good, those partnerships end which is an obvious loss of revenue. The other is that their other revenues depend entirely on searchers going to their web site. If their organic search is no good, the searchers do not come. If no searchers come, noone has reason to advertise with them, pay for sponsored links, etc. They would lose all credebility and the days of Google would be over.
__________________________________________________ ___

Is Jay the only person that can reply without attacking, belittling, and attempting to discredit someone?

Is there anyone that can be civil that can respond to the site that does to exist and then suddenly appear if you manipulate the search terms?

Those are the type of people I want to hear from, not ones that are vicious.

Michael

[JayDrake]

Originally Posted by imagolfer

fathom wrote:

There is 100% no correlation between Google SERPs and Google AdWords or Google AdSense.
__________________________________________________ ___

I will simply say that anyone that can state the above statement surely must realize that they or no one else can make that claim and maintain credibility.

Nah. This is a reasonable statement based on experience, although it does require a certain amount of faith in Google. It is possible for Google to do most anything, but it is highly unlikely that they would do the sort of things that have been hinted at with imagolfer and andilinks posts.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

WHY DOESN’T ANYONE THAT DISAGREES EXPLAIN WHY ENTERING MULIPLE SEARCH TERMS WITH COMMAS PULL UP MY SITE WHEN WWW.GOOGLERANKINGS SAYS MY SITE DOES NOT EXIST IN GOOGLE‘S INDEX?
THEN IT SHOULD NOT EXIST REGARDLESS OF THE NUMBER OF SEARCH TERMS YOU ENTER. I SAY BECAUSE OF MANIPULATION. NOT A SINGLE PERSON HAS ACTUALLY MADE A COMMENT ON WHAT I REPORT, ONLY ATTEMPTS TO CRITIZE ME AND MY SITE.

Oh... I can explain this one. :)

When you enter just one search phrase those sites that show up are, whether through hard work or just blind luck, better optimized to be found for those phrases. When you enter several phrases, however, yours is the only site which includes all of those so it is considered more relevant than the other sites.

To give a very simple example, let's say we have 3 sites, all about zoos and they were optimized for the following terms:

Site 1 - zoo, lions, tigers, bears
Site 2 - zoo, lions, bears, oh my
site 3 - zoo, lions, tigers, bears, oh my

Now, for whatever reason the 3rd site is not optimized quite so well as the other 2, so when we search for zoo or lions or bears we get site 1 and 2 at the top and when we search for tigers or 'oh my' we get either 1 or 2 at the top. But when we search for all of the terms, zoo, lions, tigers, bears, oh my - site 3 comes up top. This is because site 3, while not so well optimized as site 1 and 2, includes all of those terms which makes it more relevant in a technical sense.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

Surely someone has an explanation of why a site that does not exist in google’s index all of a sudden does when manipulating the search terms.

Your site exists in the index, it is just ranked very, very low. But we're going to fix that, right? :)

[joliettech]

Since I just took the time to read this entire thread, I thought I'd add my 2 cents.

imagolfer, your site is obviously indexed in Google. The fact that googleranking doesn't show you in the first 1000, is there are at least 1000 other sites better optimized for the key phrase you are using.

I did a search in Google using "pine springs golf course" (w/o quotes) and it returned 106,000 results. I don't know where you show up in these results, but I'll guess it's after the 1000 mark. Then I searched "pine springs golf course" (w/ quotes) and it returned 179 results and you are number 20.

My suggestion for you is to listen to people who have posted in this thread.
Get more links to you site using your key phrases.
Take a look at the sites in the top few pages of the results and try to determine what they are doing to get these results.

Just my 2 cents.

[idamay]

I recently joined with my PHASE 2 keywords, words that really didn't do much, in fact my site never posted in the top 100 for them. There were 4 of them

To my surprise, three days later, I was on the first page for 3 of them. This was after not placing in the top 100 for over a year.

I keep track of my keyword ranking obsessively. I was pleasantly surprised...

Could be coincidence I suppose. I don't think I'll pull them as this seems extremely helpful.

[cbp]

To my surprise, three days later, I was on the first page for 3 of them. This was after not placing in the top 100 for over a year.

Did this happen after you started using Adwords?

CBP

[idamay]

And they are at positions 4,6 and 7.

I don't want to jinx anything and I hate even posting this because I don't want to jeopardize things, but coincidence or not, I don't think I would risk pulling those words. I guess it could be a blip, becuase I can't imagine it's that easy and that I'd fall back somewhere, but it was VERY surprising to see...

The only reason for me posting I guess was so that someone could shed some light on things. Also, I didn't make a single change to my site.

[idamay]

It must be coicidence, because one of the words that I HAVEN'T joined adwords with just jumped up from nowhere to 16. This one however, I have been up as high as 6 in the past, but that was over 5 months ago. Since then it was out of the top 200 at least until today.

It all must be due to the changes that are being made. I am now convinced. Just very coincidental.

Things are looking up for me at least. I hope others see positive things.

[cbp]

And they are at positions 4,6 and 7.

So your experience is the exact opposite of the post the started this thread !!!!

CBP

[idamay]

I was responding to the title of the post "Google manipulating search results in favor of Adwords" and was commenting on that.

After reading through the jabs back and forth, I guess I lost track of the "content" of the original post about comma separated terms - which didn't make sense to me at all to begin with.

[Duncan Pollock]

imagolfer: You are having a hard time with us, aren't you?
But allow me, if you will, to comment on two posts in this thread. One is your own, which shows at 9.52 pm yesterday (Tuesday). The other is Jay Drake's at 2.29 pm today (Wednesday). Together, they explain why you punch in multiple search phrases and then -- and only then -- see your site in the results.
However, in being relieved at finally understanding why you search that way and having you acknowledge that this is not the norm, I cannot help but think that the manipulation that's bothering you so much is actually your own!
If Google isn't expecting people to punch in a bunch of phrases but does give you the result you want if you punch the bunch in, surely two things deserve to be recognized:
1. Google manipulates the results because you, as it were, force them to do so.
2. Expecting Google to give you your desired results if you don't force the issue is overlooking what you need to do to make your site appear in a better position -- which will happen if you follow the advice that several other posts (including those of Jay Drake) have recommended.
It isn't a perfect parallel, but anyone can turn up as number one if they simply punch in a search term (or, as in your case, a series of search terms) that no one except themselves would ever associate with their site.
(Who is it among my fellow WPW members that proves this with their signature tag line?)
Anyway, do please lighten up, imagolfer. The whole object of this exercise is to help one another, not to shout down everyone who doesn't immediately agree with a specific point of view.
PS. The Adwords appearances are, believe me, entirely coincidental. They have absolutely nothing to do with natural search results. WPW posts (all by people who do NOT work for Google!) have said this on numerous occasions.
PPS. Of course I've read your "illustrations" but this doesn't mean that my conclusions have to be the same as yours -- which obviously they're not!

Duncan

[Mel]

The bottom line Imagolfer, is that you are not happy with your Google rankings.

You have likely worked hard on your site and feel that you should be ranked highly for the name of your course at least, but Google does not place you there.

This can be corrected with a bit of "sweat equity" - listen to the advice given, make the changes suggested and your site can rank where it should.

[Dave Hawley]

and your site can rank where it should

Me thinks it does already :o)

Mel, you work for Google correct ? (tongue in cheek)

[Mel]

Actually Dave Google works for me ;-)

[imagolfer]

Duncan,

I did not start this thread to shout down anyone. I have been laughing with my friends at the personal attacks and attempts to discredit me by the likes of cbp. He does it quite often by using his sarcasm on many, many post. I simply began responding to him due to his attitude. I just could resist getting him all worked up. I sincerely think it is humorous to watch how some of these folks take negative comments against google so personal. It is like they believe in a googlegod. All the google followers at WebmasterWorld are really silly. They are the ones that made me think of getting all "googl-eyed" over googleguy that simply makes calculated posts on behalf of google.

About your opinions of my findings, I respectfully disagree. If the search engine didn't set it up that way, then the results wouldn't come up that way. That is my belief. I can not manipulate the results to get what I want if they didn't make it possible. Try putting in multiple search terms of yours and see if your site shows up with an improved position. It probably won't. That is why I say they "set mine up that way to hide my site" and believe I am not the only one.

I have even a more startling story about the PPC programs that I will post when the time comes.

Posts have claimed my site simply is not optimized for my keywords. To quote cbp, hogwash. It is and very well done I might add.

Please read the rest of my post.
________________________________
Joliettech wrote:
imagolfer, your site is obviously indexed in Google. The fact that googleranking doesn't show you in the first 1000, is there are at least 1000 other sites better optimized for the key phrase you are using.

I did a search in Google using "pine springs golf course" (w/o quotes) and it returned 106,000 results. I don't know where you show up in these results, but I'll guess it's after the 1000 mark. Then I searched "pine springs golf course" (w/ quotes) and it returned 179 results and you are number 20.
_______________________________________

Your findings prove my point. Were there over a hundred thousand websites related to pine springs golf course? Of course not!

Rarely does anyone use quotation marks and shouldn’t have to. You stated with quotation marks, I was number 20. Were there 19 other pine springs golf courses? No.

Yahoo and MSN have much better search results. I am number one as I should be for pine springs golf course.

As to keyword optimization, do a site check. I use my main keywords in the listing title, the listing description, my meta tag keywords, meta tag home page title and description, and my home page uses them several times in sentences without spamming.

So, you know not what you say! The same with some of the other folks.

I pointed out that my website is indexed, but “hidden” by requiring a searcher to use multiple search terms to pull it up.

Pretty much all the golf courses use the same search terms I do, but don’t show up either in google. The irrelevant sites using spam techniques flood the search results. Google wants it this way so you need to join the Adwords program.

Are not east texas golf courses, tyler texas golf courses, golf courses in tyler texas, golf courses in east texas, etc. proper keyword phrase usage for a golf course in east texas. I think so.

Enter them in for yourself and see how many east texas golf courses you find. But there are many, many with websites.

I am amazed at the google defenders that can’t realistically defend them and just make uninformed negative statements out of the blue.

Google has been asked to explain what is going on and they remain silent. Why can’t they have googleguy or gogglegal to make a post with a logical explanation of my findings and clear things up? I say because they can’t.

I know some brainwashed google worshipers will go absolutely nuts over my next opinion, but calm down and accept that it is just my opinion and belief.

I want to comment on Links to one’s site. Anyone that has mentioned links please do not think this is directed towards you. It is not. It has been my belief about links all along.

Here goes. Supposedly, links to your site make your site more worthy, credible, etc. I say they are almost entirely useless and senseless and have no relevance and lend no worthiness to the site they are linked to. Google has brainwashed folks into believing they are important, or somehow an actual “vote of importance”. Google wants sites competing to have their Adsense program. They are laughing all the way to the bank.

Here’s why they have no meaningful purpose:

Any one can PURCHASE them from the other site for a fee, which discredit’s the link. Google in the end is the one who benefits.

Does anyone actually think that links between sites really speak well of the other site. They don’t even know each other. People trade links simply to comply with Google. If the links traded or sold between parties that have never met, never done business with each other, don’t have a clue of the reputation of the other, etc. then there is no relevance. Yet there is this imaginary “worth” of the site as if their reputation, honestly, importance, etc exist because they have more links than someone else. That is simply nonsense.

A link being considered “a vote of importance” as if from a better business bureau is just nonsense. Again, the links are irrelevant and should not be given any importance.

A link with relevant text linking to another site is different than say a link from Texas Avenues (a directory that offered me a link for $49 a year). If you want to fall for the link theory making your site more relevant than it is, you can spend enough to rank as high you need to feel, and have google reward you for wasting all your money.

The typical small business website will never get the “link from text referring to their site”. Therefore, they only have their product of service to offer and anyone believing links make them important to a searcher is misguided.

My golf course is one of, if not the most popular golf courses in my area.
I do not sell products or services or need the web for my business. You are probably now asking yourself, “then why do I care one way or another”. I don’t. It started as a hobby and then I saw all the irrelevant search results, such as directories using local search terms and golf course names that have been out of business for years to lure visitors for other purposes and I thought I would speak out.
Well linked, but very unethical. I have even told them the sites they uses as their titles are out of business. They don't care. The searcher think by clicking on the title listing "Bellwood Golf Course" that they are about to visit Bellwoods website. There isn't one. And the golf course went out of business years ago.

Google has been advised of the "bait and switch directories" but don't care. They acknowledged in a email response to me they were advised, but did nothing.

They need the linking stratagies to promote their Adsense and Adwords. They are profiting on sites that operate contrary to their own guidelines. Hows that for ethics.

My site is only about 90 days old and has had thousands of visitors with much less than 10% coming from Overture or Google.

I don’t have to worry about being banned or penalized. The websites that depend on the web for a living do have to be careful. I don’t.

I can speak out and hopefully help small businesses get out of google what it’s founders initially wanted. A place everyone could use and get relevant search results without bias. I don’t think they were concerned with links. I think the big engine has lost it's way and will suffer in the future for it.

By the way I'm told the few in disagreement with me in the post must be right. They are not even one percent of the viewers, and all of the dozens of emails agree with me. So, what say you 'bout that.

Now, about being critized for believing in conspiracy theroies. I do. I believe also that anyone who doesn't don't get out much or ever watch the news. The oil prices, Enron, Martha Stewart, Insider violations, the government cover ups, price fixing, and yes even search engines. So anyone well informed knows some will go way out there in the name of greed.

One last prediction to perhaps make some google worshipers have a stroke. But just a simple prediction from someone with a good imagination and observant to current events around the world. Worked up already, aren't you?

The big engine will be derailed. There will be a massive merger take place and Yahoo will be the King of Search. Bill Gates will be involved, cause he don't like being # 3. The entity will rule and succeed due to the back to the basics of searcher friendly quality results that google strayed away from.

OK, maybe not. But if Las Vegas gave a line on it, I'd place a huge bet.

imagolfer

[cbp]

I have been laughing with my friends at the personal attacks and attempts to discredit me by the likes of cbp

You brought that upon yourself by accusing me of working for Google (when I don't) and accusing me of ignoring this thread (I live in a different time zone, so was asleep when you first posted).

You are welcome to continue believing as you do and your site will continue to rank poorly -- no skin off my nose.

You have been given some very good advice in this thread from some very competent people ... your choice if you you want to ignore it.

CBP

[imagolfer]

<MOD EDIT - personal and racist insults deleted.
Please see forum rules>

[imagolfer]

By the way, if there are any more subjects you need advice or an opinion on, I have both!

Not like those drive by one liner throwers that are meaningless and can't formulate ideas and thoughts.

You must admit, I'm at least amusing.

Now, someone get googleguy or googlegal to respond to my complaint. I need to go to bed so I can get up early and buy some Yahooooo stock!

imagolfer, and a good one!

[Dave Hawley]

Yahoo and MSN have much better search results. I am number one as I should be for pine springs golf course.

I see, the SE's you rank well on are not corrupt, but Google is? Why would ONLY Google be corrupt?

[Mel]

Originally Posted by imagolfer

By the way, if there are any more subjects you need advice or an opinion on, I have both!

Not like those drive by one liner throwers that are meaningless and can't formulate ideas and thoughts.

You must admit, I'm at least amusing.

Now, someone get googleguy or googlegal to respond to my complaint. I need to go to bed so I can get up early and buy some Yahooooo stock!

imagolfer, and a good one!

Please spare us the agony Imagolfer, several of us have responded in an attempt to help you but it seems to me that really don't want help or better rankings, all you want is a forum to rant on.

Actually I don't find you amusing at all.

[Dave Hawley]

You must admit, I'm at least amusing.

That you are. Trouble is we are laughing AT you NOT with you!

[daxesh]

I found that Google has manipulated their search results by requiring searchers to enter multiple search terms separated by commas in order to find my site.

by imagolfer

I must say imagolfer is a new kid on the block with little experience. I am most surprised at all the other FORUM MEMBERS not doing enough research before giving an answer or making fun of others.

I will give an answer to end agonies of all of us including imagolfer.

imagolfer had said that his site only comes when multiple search terms are used seperated by commas and because of this fact the whole debate had started in the first place.

I have found that his site is coming on 17th position for the keyword ->

Pine Springs Golf Course Tyler Texas

without any commas in google. So I think this will satisfy everybody and it here hopefully.

[Dave Hawley]

I will give an answer to end agonies of all of us including imagolfer.

Well, what is it?