Google manipulating search results in favor of Adwords

[JayDrake]

Originally Posted by Mel

Actually Dave Google works for me ;-)

That's beautiful Mel. :)

[Haltos]

Originally Posted by imagolfer

Well it seems so far that WebProWorld is more independent than WebmasterWorld.

I made the same post at Webmaster World about google and they deleted it very quickly!

<edit>by fathom, reason: no private emails or PMs</edit>

Does every deleted post get sent directly to Brett Tabke and Shak? Is that the basketball player?

Could the actual translation be this: We are in bed with Google and we must protect their interest. You can not be too negative against them. Maybe they have alot of stock riding on the upcoming IPO.

The "forum" can not be responsible for a person making a post of their findings and furnishing proof to back it up.

Didn't think of it before, but if I'm on to something, then maybe someone will get onto it.

Michael

My understanding of the legal issue of such a post is that you cannot make unsubstantiated inuendos/allegations. However, if you want to raise a question, put a question mark at the end of your quote and legally you are asking a question, and not making a statement!

[JayDrake]

Originally Posted by imagolfer

Your findings prove my point. Were there over a hundred thousand websites related to pine springs golf course? Of course not!

Rarely does anyone use quotation marks and shouldn’t have to. You stated with quotation marks, I was number 20. Were there 19 other pine springs golf courses? No.

There were not this many sites related to "pine springs golf course" but to pine, springs, golf and course there were. This is a matter of understanding how string matching works. You are absolutely correct in that the average searcher either does not know to use quotes or is not willing to trouble themselves to. For this reason we optimize for what we expect they will search for.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

Yahoo and MSN have much better search results. I am number one as I should be for pine springs golf course.

It is apparent, then, that your optimization is adequate for those search engines. It can be noted that Yahoo and MSN are more similar to each other than either of them are to Google in how they determine what is and isn't relevant. In your case, this is a good thing. In many cases this is not which is why Google holds the title of best search engine. It hits the mark more often than the others do, although it is certainly true that those others, like Google, continue to improve.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

As to keyword optimization, do a site check. I use my main keywords in the listing title, the listing description, my meta tag keywords, meta tag home page title and description, and my home page uses them several times in sentences without spamming.

This is a good start. It is questionable whether Google reads far enough through your code to reach your keywords within the body of your site. In most cases I wouldn't question this at all, but your source code is horribly bloated with unnecessary tags and such.

Whether or not Google (or any SE presently) cares about code validation is unknown, but they should. (Valid code is more likely to display properly in all browsers and pages that don't display properly will turn off searchers.) Validating your code and correcting any errors could be of some help, though I doubt it would be a big boost. It is, however, good practice that everyone should adhere to at all times.

Those two things are fairly basic 'quick fixes' you can deal with over the course of a couple hours fairly easily. What would make the greatest difference for ranking in Google, however, would be getting quality inbound links. Like I said earlier, some form of cooperation with other golf courses would likely result in benefits for all involved. The hard part about this is that you have to get other people to do some work.

Personally, I would get 5 other golf sites interested in doing 2 things. First, have them trade links with you. These can be basic text links at the bottom of your front page and theirs. Second, have them find 4 others to do the same thing with, who will also find 4 others and so on. Assuming you don't all link to the same people, you then get the effect of a large number of golf courses linking both directly and indirectly to each other which brings the overall ranking of all the golf courses up.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

I pointed out that my website is indexed, but “hidden” by requiring a searcher to use multiple search terms to pull it up.

Pretty much all the golf courses use the same search terms I do, but don’t show up either in google. The irrelevant sites using spam techniques flood the search results. Google wants it this way so you need to join the Adwords program.

Are not east texas golf courses, tyler texas golf courses, golf courses in tyler texas, golf courses in east texas, etc. proper keyword phrase usage for a golf course in east texas. I think so.

Enter them in for yourself and see how many east texas golf courses you find. But there are many, many with websites.

The results that are higher than yours are better optimized and have better linking strategies. As Google is based on popularity based on links and string matching, there is no way for Google to know that you really are what the searcher is looking for. All Google knows is that these other sites ranked higher than yours for these phrases are linked to by others who say they are what the searcher is looking for and that their content matches equally or better.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

Here goes. Supposedly, links to your site make your site more worthy, credible, etc. I say they are almost entirely useless and senseless and have no relevance and lend no worthiness to the site they are linked to. Google has brainwashed folks into believing they are important, or somehow an actual “vote of importance”. Google wants sites competing to have their Adsense program. They are laughing all the way to the bank.

Checking links is a method to determine value. It's certainly not perfect, but it is used. Whether you like the method or not is irrelevant. What is important here is that you want a higher position on Google. To do so you will need to get links, and some links are more valuable than others.

The complex equations used by Google to determine the value of links is what makes the idea somewhat more feasible as a rating system for web sites and is one of their closely guarded secrets. A little common sense, research and a basic understanding of the principles of organic search helps us to make some assumptions about what Google looks for in links, however.

I'm not sure what you think this has to do with adsense?

Originally Posted by imagolfer

Here’s why they have no meaningful purpose:

Any one can PURCHASE them from the other site for a fee, which discredit’s the link. Google in the end is the one who benefits.

How does Google benefit from me purchasing a link on another's site?

Originally Posted by imagolfer

Does anyone actually think that links between sites really speak well of the other site. They don’t even know each other. People trade links simply to comply with Google. If the links traded or sold between parties that have never met, never done business with each other, don’t have a clue of the reputation of the other, etc. then there is no relevance. Yet there is this imaginary “worth” of the site as if their reputation, honestly, importance, etc exist because they have more links than someone else. That is simply nonsense.

In a strictly pay for play or reciprocal sense this is to some degree correct. However, if you are going to pay for links to get a higher ranking in Google, why not just pay for Google's adsense program and guarantee your spot? In the case of swapping, I have theorized that Google looks at your links in and checks whether or not you link back to that site and gives less credit for those links which do provide a link back. This is, of course, based on experience and the ideology of organic search.

Now, if I were a golf course or a golf magazine web site and I linked to your site without you linking to mine, what would you think of that? I would think this means that I see some value in your site, otherwise why would I be doing it? If I am a highly recognized site and I do so, should that not also show that your site is valuable? These are the very basic concepts and the most valuable links, in my opinion.

The topic of links, of course, could easily take over (and does) several threads of it's own and is one which epitomizes the mysteries of Google. The best strategy? Get all the links to you that you can, but be careful who you link to. Linking into what have been termed 'bad neighborhoods' can cause you trouble. Being linked to never will.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

A link with relevant text linking to another site is different than say a link from Texas Avenues (a directory that offered me a link for $49 a year). If you want to fall for the link theory making your site more relevant than it is, you can spend enough to rank as high you need to feel, and have google reward you for wasting all your money.

I refuse to pay for links, although were I starting a brand new web site I might consider doing some amount of this for a number of months to jump start getting listed and ranked, but would stop once I had managed to pick up a reasonable number of good links which don't cost me.

Originally Posted by imagolfer

The typical small business website will never get the “link from text referring to their site”. Therefore, they only have their product of service to offer and anyone believing links make them important to a searcher is misguided.

You can, actually, get free, relevant text links if you are willing to do some work. Work which, happily enough, will help you in your relevance as well as appeal to your visitors.

My favorite way is to generate content that applies both to your site and to other sites like it, let those other sites know you have it and that you are willing to let them use it in exchange for a link to the original article and credit for it. (Some would even prefer to just link to the article rather than have it on their site at all.)

My second favorite way is to do press releases. Television, newspapers, magazines, radio - They all have web sites, and many of their sites rank very well with Google because they are chock full of content and people link to them freely for various reasons. No matter what it is you are doing in your business, send out press releases to anyone you can. If you are lucky, they will do something in their regular publication or a show or what have you, but even if they just post your release, exactly as is or with some commentary with a link to your site, it will help you.

Both these cases work best with professional level writing skills and if you aren't up to the job you can always hire someone to take care of it, whether an advertising agency or a freelance writer. (Or an aspiring writer, which can be mutually beneficial.)

Originally Posted by imagolfer

The big engine will be derailed. There will be a massive merger take place and Yahoo will be the King of Search. Bill Gates will be involved, cause he don't like being # 3. The entity will rule and succeed due to the back to the basics of searcher friendly quality results that google strayed away from.

Hmm... Most of these are certainly possible. Of them all, the one I would bank against is Google being derailed. It continues to, despite your own grief, provide the best result sets for the greatest percentage of searches. Until other search engines provide better results, Google will be king. I'm certainly not saying it isn't possible for the other search engines to catch up. If they do, they then have to compete on extra services (google mail is looking rather attractive) and then they have to fight against the history of Google being the best.

[jstarkweather]

Originally Posted by imagolfer

As to keyword optimization, do a site check. I use my main keywords in the listing title, the listing description, my meta tag keywords, meta tag home page title and description, and my home page uses them several times in sentences without spamming.
imagolfer

Meta tag data is mostly ignored by Google (and many other engines because they long ago realized it was being abused). There are a few META search engines out there. A few.

As I said earlier and you keep plodding on with your Google conspiracy issues, YOU NEED A BETTER TITLE TAG! That is if you want TYLER or EAST TEXAS to get better scoring on your page.

Jim

[imagolfer]

Mel wrote,
The bottom line Imagolfer, is that you are not happy with your Google rankings.
You have likely worked hard on your site and feel that you should be ranked highly for the name of your course at least, but Google does not place you there.
This can be corrected with a bit of "sweat equity" - listen to the advice given, make the changes suggested and your site can rank where it should.
_______________________________________

Not the case, Mel. I am not happy with the way in which google ranks in general.

Please do though, explain why one wouldn't rank well with their own name? That does puzzle me.

imagolfer

[imagolfer]

Daxesh wrote:

I must say imagolfer is a new kid on the block with little experience. I am most surprised at all the other FORUM MEMBERS not doing enough research before giving an answer or making fun of others.

I will give an answer to end agonies of all of us including imagolfer.

imagolfer had said that his site only comes when multiple search terms are used seperated by commas and because of this fact the whole debate had started in the first place.

I have found that his site is coming on 17th position for the keyword ->

Pine Springs Golf Course Tyler Texas

without any commas in google. So I think this will satisfy everybody and it here hopefully.
_____________________________________

Your post appears to be in good faith, and I appreciate your comments altogether.

I assure you that listing was not available prior to this post. I checked Google, Yahoo, and MSN daily and have repeatedly entered the precise name of the course, just as you did, and went through many pages and google never had it listed for my name. It is a recent change. I could only speculate as to why it did not, and does now, but I won’t.

But I respectfully disagree with your conclusion. Pine Springs Golf Course Tyler Texas is not, in my opinion considered a search term. Anyone using that as a search term already knows that there is a golf course in tyler, east texas called Pine Springs Golf Course with a website. They are not searching for golf courses in east texas. They already know who they are looking for, and where they are at. They gave the search engine the proper information to list Pine Springs Golf Course in their search term. And after specifically entering the name of the golf course, website itself, and location then why wouldn’t that golf course be the first listing for that searcher. They couldn’t have been more specific. As I’m sure you will agree, the other 16 listings could not be near as relevant as the golf course itself. So therefore, the search results are lacking, though not corrupt.
__________________________________________________ _

Daxesh wrote:
I must say imagolfer is a new kid on the block with little experience.
__________________________________________________ __

New, yes. Published my first website in early Febuary. Little experience. Yes, in relation to most within the forums and normal webmasters. Not a little actually. I began researching and reading posts here, at other forums, news articles, etc. 7 days a week since January. I am well informed of different opinions and viewpoints on as many subjects as I can find.
I had enough understanding of how to make a website be found on the web when I first posted it. I am not a professional, but think I did a pretty good job the first time. Within a week of submitting my website, I ranked in the top five with the major search engines, except google on every single one of my 10 keywords.

I believe the site owner has done their job for search engines when their title, description, home page content, meta tags, etc are all consistent with the purpose of the website.

One should not have to participate in all the games Google wants you to in order to be accessed by a searcher. I believe the games are intentional simply to benefit google as I mentioned in my last post.

My beliefs and opinions come from observation and research about SEO, etc. My credentials are not in the field of the web. But as a self-employed businessman for almost 30 years, an owner of a golf course, a construction company specializing in custom homes, a car dealership owner, and some smaller ventures, all which I started on my own from ground up, I do believe my life experiences and common sense apply. Business is business, search engines or any other businesses.

This thread could be very information and educational if folks would be engaged in discussion and debate over the actual issues and opinions I have brought to light in my previous posts, instead of making fun and attempting to discredit me and my site.

Whether they accept it or not, I do listen to pointers and advise. Repeatedly though, I just get sarcastic and criticism stating I need to optimize my keyword phrases, etc. Upon further review one can tell that I have.

No one has yet to discuss the issues, as I have stated repeatedly. Therefore, I believe whether or not intentional, that they are polluting this thread and discouraging participation.

I am amazed at the ones that can’t let go of a statement in jest about working for google, and just keep repeating themselves over and over.

It is obvious these folks have the knowledge and experience to intelligently discuss the issues I bring forth and have added since the beginning.

I plead with everyone I have offended by the “working for google” comment to please re-read my different opinions and beliefs and attempt to educate me. I will kindly respond, whether in agreement or disagreement. And just maybe someone can change some of my opinions.

Let’s all please focus to address the issues and someone will have to learn something from the knowledgeable forum members. I hope no one else gets offended and all just let the air clear and start over. I will not respond with any more sarcasm of my own, regardless of the other replies.

imagolfer

[tcady]

I agree that nothing has been proven by imagolfer -

What does appear to be happening, is that he just wants to get listed under some very competitive terms. Unfortunately for imagolfer, not all sites that have the words 'golf' AND 'course' AND 'east' AND 'texas' are competing with him, nor do they happen to all be an actual golf courses, but they have worked harder to be listed for those terms than imgolfer seems to have, else he would be there, I have no doubt.

Here's another thought - (just speculation) -
Google doesnt like to show duplicate results on the same page, they figure since you are paying for clicks, that adwords ad must be valuable to you, and your free lisitng and your paid listing on the same page is a duplicate in their eyes, and it would be silly of them to remove the paid listing....see my point?
If this were true, I still dont see it as unfair manipulation against the little guy, just offering a better variety of results.

In the end - this is simply a case of a narrow minded site owner who think HIS site is the only/most relevant site, and he fails to open his eyes and see all the other uses that a string of words might have to the billions of other people out there. Here's a good way to check if you are making a fuss for no good reason
got to

https://signup.overture.com/s/dtc/si...gestions.jhtml


and put in your search string "golf course east texas"

From the horse's mouth, I quote:

"What do the statistics on the Search Term Suggestion results show?

Search Volume
This is the number of searches the term received across the Overture network in the last month. This data is updated at the end of each month and is usually available by the 10th of the next month. "

Your search string shows 210 searches this month.
Although there are a billion more popular searches, that is by no means small change, considering that 10 times as many of the exact same search is happening on Google alone this month, not to mention MSN and other SEs... so it is a good string to optimize for is my point, but it also means you have competition.

I have a good sized group of competitors (30) - but in many ways that is small I know! - I cant get in the top ten for all my keywords/strings but it doesnt make me think Google is out to get me- and my SERs on Yahoo, MSN and Google are vastly different. Occassionally other sites that happen to have my keywords on them, but arent truly relevent IMO, get into the top ten results. I make point to notify the SE of poor results in those cases. And yes, I compete with those big directories too, and I try to get listed in them also - which builds my PR some. I have tried Adwords and decided it doesnt benefit me enough over my free listings. I work to optimize my site, but not TOO much, every day. I use WebPositionGold to monitor my ranks and I watch them change **every** day (thats an eye opener!) Up and Down and Up and Down, whoopee! its because everyone is tweaking, and changing and growing, and adding new content and new sites join the web, old ones die, etc. This is all the nature of caring about a web site. Its fun, dont take it so seriously!

I agree with the poster who said "Gooogle doesnt have time to care about the little guy"

My dad always told me: If you can't change something it doesnt do any good to worry about it. Believe me, you can't change Google. Just do the best you can to get ranked well, thats all you can do.

[scallihan]

Not sure this is a factor, but your TITLE element is preceded by six META elements. My understanding is that only the first of your META elements, setting the character set, should be ahead of the TITLE element -- all others should come after.

Also noticed that you don't have a single heading element (H1, H2, etc.) in your page.

[Mel]

Originally Posted by imagolfer

Mel wrote,
The bottom line Imagolfer, is that you are not happy with your Google rankings.
You have likely worked hard on your site and feel that you should be ranked highly for the name of your course at least, but Google does not place you there.
This can be corrected with a bit of "sweat equity" - listen to the advice given, make the changes suggested and your site can rank where it should.
_______________________________________

Not the case, Mel. I am not happy with the way in which google ranks in general.

Please do though, explain why one wouldn't rank well with their own name? That does puzzle me.

imagolfer

Well from the gist of your many posts so far seems to me that you are not happy with YOUR current rankings. You can either complain about it or you can make the changes necessary to get better rankings. Your choice.

Why should you rank well for your own company name??? How is the search engine supposed to know that is the name of your golf course? You will note that you do rank #1 for your URL, which is your name as far as search engines are concerned.

When you enter the search string pine springs golf course it is not considered as a name but as a search string and as such the results will be for terms relevant to pine, springs, golf and course and combinations of these words.

If you want to be ranked #1 for pine springs golf course (which IMO is not a good idea, as if people already know your naame the are not likely to be searching for it) you will have to let the search engines know that is what you want to be ranked for by using that term in ways that search engines recognize.

If the amount of time and energy that has been expended explaining that search engines do not work the way you would like them to were channeled towards improving your rankings you would be well on your way to good rankings.

[Dave Hawley]

It's becoming paifully clear some people are their own worst enemies. Despite imagolfer's retorts, personal insults and racist remarks to others trying to help him he keeps on banging the 'Google is corupt' drum. In fact he is banging it so loud he cannot hear what others here are saying, hence, imagolfer's worst enemy is himself.

I say forget imagolfer, let's all help those that respect, listen and appreciate it.

[fathom]

Mel Gibson's movie is out in video "Conspiracy Theory"... the balcony is closed!