help:What is Google PR leaking?

[holy2050]

PageRank (PR) confuses a lot of webmasters and SEO Consultants.
Help:What is PR leaking and how to protect our sites PR? Thks.

[jawn_tech]

In the context of how I've heard it being used is, having so many outbound links from your site that essentially more PR is being passed to them than what you would be passing in between your own pages.

Usually t's something that is said to be averted by not having a gazillion OBL's on every page, using "rel="nofollow"", or other methods of supposed PR 'sculpting'.

The term may be used in other contexts. I'll let others chime in on their views on this one.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by holy2050

Help:What is PR leaking and how to protect our sites PR? Thks.

I wrote an article about this issue Boost your rankings with Pagerank Sculpting - SEO Workers

Read it first and if you still have questions, please feel free to post. I would be glad to answer.

[crankydave]

Here is where I explained what it is...

is outgoing links weakening me ?

Dave

[kgun]

So precise that it can be quoted again:

Originally Posted by crankydave

Now, either the author doesn't understand what exactly PR "leak" is or they are addressing all those who misunderstand it and what a simple and very narrow concept it refers to. It's very easy to say it "doesn't exist" to all the folks that misunderstand it rather than to try and explain it. I've tried to do the latter but it's always turned into a full blown mess. Perhaps I'll try one more time for you John and see if it makes sense.

1. A page has a finite amount of PageRank it can pass to other pages.
   
2. That PageRank is passed via the links on the page.
   
3. Those links on the page can be external links or internal links.
   
4. Any amount of PR that is passed via external links is not passed within the site.
   
5. The amount of PR that is passed, or "voted" if you like, by the external link is commonly referred to as being "leaked" because it is not being passed internally.

Example 1... If all the links on a page are internal links then 100% of the available PR is being passed (voted) within the site therefore there is no leak.

Example 2... If all the links on a page are external links then all the available PR is being passed (voted) outside of the site therefore there is a 100% leak.

All a PR leak refers to is the amount of PR that is passed (voted) to external sites that is not being passed (voted) within the site. Anytime less than 100% of the available PR is being passed (voted) within the site, the amount that is not being passed (voted) internally is commonly referred to as a "leak".

So the conclusion is:

If you do not put the rel="nofollow" attribute on external links, you leak PageRank to the external page.

Related thread:
Internal and external links and the rel="nofollow" attribute

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by kgun

So the conclusion is:

If you do not put the rel="nofollow" attribute on external links, you leak PageRank to the external page.

Related thread:
Internal and external links and the rel="nofollow" attribute

Correct kgun.

However, the end result of external links can be positive, negative, or neutral because PR is a function of links that point to a page in the aggregate.

Dave

[kgun]

But to be sure not to leak pagerank at all, you have to put the rel="nofollow" attribute on all external links.

If you have time, read post #39 and #65 in the link in my above post and give your feedback.

What happened to the Nofollow help center? Anybody that use it?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Correct kgun.

However, the end result of external links can be positive, negative, or neutral because PR is a function of links that point to a page in the aggregate.

Dave

I think this is great article explaining the power of OBLs: Frank Rich: Why I link Nieman Journalism Lab Pushing to the Future of Journalism

[kgun]

John, does he in your view, explain the power of OBL's

• Correctly?
• Better than we here at WPW?

Google:

financial

Yahoo! Finance #1 and better than Google Finance that I can not find on the first 5 pagews.

"personal finance"

"financial information"

"professional financial information"

There must be something wrong with the SE's view of the Web's link structure or alternatively how OB and IBL's are weighted.

The financial service sector is the business that I personally can judge best.

[kgun]

I awaited the following reaction. Those search terms don't say much about the web's linkstructure.

Then try: ( ) indicates the advanced search operators allinachor and inanchor respectively.

(all)inanchor: financial

(all)inanchor: "personal finance"

(all)inanchor: "financial information"

(all)inanchor: "professional financial information"

(all)inanchor: "financial news"

Other variants:

news (all)inanchor: financial

"professional advice" allinanchor: financial

[sushil]

PageRank is a numeric value that represents how important a page is on the web. Google figures that when one page links to another page, it is effectively casting a vote for the other page. PageRank is Google's way of deciding a page's importance. It matters because it is one of the factors that determines a page's ranking in the search results.

[kevsta]

Originally Posted by sushil

PageRank is a numeric value that represents how important a page is on the web. Google figures that when one page links to another page, it is effectively casting a vote for the other page. PageRank is Google's way of deciding a page's importance. It matters because it is one of the factors that determines a page's ranking in the search results.

yes thanks for this most basic of irrelevant information. it's always good to get a little Kindergarten refresher in the middle of a University debate lol

[Russianzio12]

If you have 50 outgoing links and your PR drops it will not be leaking it will be punishing! The leaking accurs for your internal pages only! Quality related utbound links don't hurt your PR at all!

[full house]

I see, so its all mainly in unrelated links which could cost link farm?

[holy2050]

Who has explicit answer to this? my website pr rise to 3 this month, but click drop.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by holy2050

Who has explicit answer to this? my website pr rise to 3 this month, but click drop.

That means that you are fixed on off-page optimization instead of on-page optimization. If you will get rid of the toolbar and work on your site on-page needs, I am sure your click ratio will increase.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

If you have 50 outgoing links and your PR drops it will not be leaking it will be punishing! The leaking accurs for your internal pages only! Quality related utbound links don't hurt your PR at all!

Not true at all. If you link out the page linking out is passing PR that could be passed inside the site outside the site.

Quality has nothing to do with it.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by full house

I see, so its all mainly in unrelated links which could cost link farm?

No, if you link out to any site you are taking PR from your site and passing it to someone else.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by janeth

No, if you link out to any site you are taking PR from your site and passing it to someone else.

I thought that every page by birth has a reserved amount of PR for itself and for OBLs. If you do not have OBLs on a page, that PR will not be assigned on the page itself. Or did I miss something?

If I am wrong, that means that I could eliminate all OBLs on my site and reserve the PR from myself.

So what is next?

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

I thought that every page by birth has a reserved amount of PR for itself and for OBLs. If you do not have OBLs on a page, that PR will not be assigned on the page itself. Or did I miss something?

If I am wrong, that means that I could eliminate all OBLs on my site and reserve the PR from myself.

So what is next?

I think what you are referring to is "dangling links" John.

That is when a link points to a page that has no links on it (external or internal). In which case, the dangling links are dropped from the equation. So page isn't dropped, the dangling links are. Yes, by default, once indexed a page has PR.

Yes, you could eliminate all external links and pass all the available PR to yourself via internal links. An ecommerce site that does not do link exchanges "might" come close to this.

Dave

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by crankydave

I think what you are referring to is "dangling links" John.

That is when a link points to a page that has no links on it (external or internal). In which case, the dangling links are dropped from the equation. So page isn't dropped, the dangling links are. Yes, by default, once indexed a page has PR.

Yes, you could eliminate all external links and pass all the available PR to yourself via internal links. An ecommerce site that does not do link exchanges "might" come close to this.

Dave

Correct. But I am not only dangling links. I am also about semantical linking.
E.g. like "click here", "more about", etc.

But: since PR is a democratic based system, how can that exist if no one would link outside his/her site?

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

I thought that every page by birth has a reserved amount of PR for itself and for OBLs. If you do not have OBLs on a page, that PR will not be assigned on the page itself. Or did I miss something?

If I am wrong, that means that I could eliminate all OBLs on my site and reserve the PR from myself.

So what is next?

I work with a site that does really, really well and has no links leaving the site.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Correct. But I am not only dangling links. I am also about semantical linking.
E.g. like "click here", "more about", etc.

But: since PR is a democratic based system, how can that exist if no one would link outside his/her site?

Everyone else should link out preferably to me. It’s only I that shouldn’t link out.

[Webnauts]

There are several reasons why I link out.

Some examples: Official Google Webmaster Central Blog: Linking out: Often it's just applying common sense

Also the link I posted above: http://www.niemanlab.org/2008/12/frank-rich-why-i-link/

If all that don't apply to your business needs, then you must be fine.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

There are several reasons why I link out.

Some examples: Official Google Webmaster Central Blog: Linking out: Often it's just applying common sense

Also the link I posted above: Frank Rich: Why I link Nieman Journalism Lab Pushing to the Future of Journalism

If all that don't apply to your business needs, then you must be fine.

There is nothing wrong with linking out, I do it all the time. However, it does leak PR.

[Russianzio12]

Originally Posted by janeth

Not true at all. If you link out the page linking out is passing PR that could be passed inside the site outside the site.

Quality has nothing to do with it.

Oh, come on! How can you state that? If what you are saying was true, there would be no sites linking to each other to keep their PR! And after all i would say "i think" it just gives credits without loosing its PR, as i do not know that for a fact but neither you do. I am trying to see Google algo with the common sense, and my theory would work here

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

Oh, come on! How can you state that?

It’s common knowledge.

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

If what you are saying was true, there would be no sites linking to each other to keep their PR!

If we have $20.00 and spend $5.00 you will only have $15.00 left. Now that you know this do you feel that the world will stop spending money?

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

And after all i would say "i think" it just gives credits without loosing its PR,

And you'd be wrong.

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

as i do not know that for a fact but neither you do.

A physic, can you only tell what I know and don’t know or can you read my mind as well?

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

I am trying to see Google algo with the common sense, and my theory would work here

Here’s what Matt Cutts had to say about it.

Originally Posted by Google

The nofollow attribute is just a mechanism that gives webmasters the ability to modify PageRank flow

Why would someone want to modify the flow of page rank?

I know, because it's leaking.

And here is something else Matt said

Originally Posted by Google

I think saying people "should be" using nofollow is a bit strong. More like people can use it for internal links if they're power-user-y enough to want to sculpt PageRank flow within their site at the link level.

This means we leak page rank in our own sites as well. Using the no follow tag allows us to control the direction the leaks flow.

[Russianzio12]

Janeth, don't you see that even Matt hasn't mentioned the word "leaking" Your examples here talk about PR flow, which is not the same thing! Or maybe my English is too bad and it is actually flow=leaking... To state this as a fact Matt never confirmed what you were speculating here and he never used the phrase "PR leaking" on his blog himself, other people always misinterpret his words just like you did in this case! There is a PR flow, no doubt about it, "one page linking to another gives credit to it" If that page links to 5 external sites the PR devides equaly between them and the linking page doesn't loose. As i stated before: if you link to 20+ sites from your page you might be taken for a link farm which will eventually cause a PR loss!
"If we have $20.00 and spend $5.00 you will only have $15.00 left." LOL Is that how we should understand Google? I think its a bit more complicated than that!

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by janeth

Quality has nothing to do with it.

I fully disagree and I do not want to argue, because I am just sure that at that point I am definitively right.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

Janeth, don't you see that even Matt hasn't mentioned the word "leaking" Your examples here talk about PR flow, which is not the same thing! Or maybe my English is too bad and it is actually flow=leaking... To state this as a fact Matt never confirmed what you were speculating here and he never used the phrase "PR leaking" on his blog himself, other people always misinterpret his words just like you did in this case! There is a PR flow, no doubt about it, "one page linking to another gives credit to it" If that page links to 5 external sites the PR devides equaly between them and the linking page doesn't loose. As i stated before: if you link to 20+ sites from your page you might be taken for a link farm which will eventually cause a PR loss!

You really need to study up on this a little

http://www.jaankanellis.com/update-o...nd-matt-cutts/

Originally Posted by Matt

Nofollowing your internals can affect your ranking in Google, but it’s a 2nd order effect.

My analogy is: suppose you’ve got $100. Would you rather work on getting $300, or would you spend your time planning how to spend your $100 more wisely.

Spending the $100 more wisely is a matter of good site architecture (and nofollowing/sculpting PageRank if you want). But most people would benefit more from looking at how to get to the $300 level.

If it only flows then why does he compare it to spending?

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

I fully disagree and I do not want to argue, because I am just sure that at that point I am definitively right.

A bucket that leaks water leaks the same amount of water no matter where it lands.

[Russianzio12]

[quote=janeth;412562]You really need to study up on this a little

http://www.jaankanellis.com/update-o...nd-matt-cutts/

What is this? Why should i study from your site? Speculations and guesses all over again. Matts examples with $$$ do not lead to your statements but rather to what i have said before about the PR flow

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

What is this? Why should i study from your site?

And once again you are wrong, it's not my site.

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

Speculations and guesses all over again. Matts examples with $$$ do not lead to your statements but rather to what i have said before about the PR flow

He said you could either figure out how to spend the $100.00 or how to make $300.00.

Spending is not flowing, it's spending.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by janeth

A bucket that leaks water leaks the same amount of water no matter where it lands.

I think you misunderstood. I said that on-page quality issues became a part of the PageRank algorithm.

[Russianzio12]

Originally Posted by janeth

And once again you are wrong, it's not my site.



He said you could either figure out how to spend the $100.00 or how to make $300.00.

Spending is not flowing, it's spending.

Its not "spending" its your speculating without the facts! Giving me some URLs, ok - not yours, i assume the one that you have studied from.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

I think you misunderstood. I said that on-page quality issues became a part of the PageRank algorithm.

Like?

I'm not sure I understand?

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

Its not "spending" its your speculating without the facts! Giving me some URLs, ok - not yours, i assume the one that you have studied from.

That one is not mine but then I told you that already.

This should help you out Let me google that for you

[Webnauts]

May I add my article here about PageRank Sculpting without being penalized for self-promotion, since that is honestly not my intention? Boost your rankings with Pagerank Sculpting

Notice: If mods consider this as a violation, please delete this post. Thanks.

[Russianzio12]

Originally Posted by janeth

A bucket that leaks water leaks the same amount of water no matter where it lands.

How about leaking your "bucket" under water LOL

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

May I add my article here about PageRank Sculpting without being penalized for self-promotion, since that is honestly not my intention? Boost your rankings with Pagerank Sculpting

Notice: If mods consider this as a violation, please delete this post. Thanks.

What’s different there then what I’ve been saying?

It sounds like we agree on everything.

[crankydave]

PR leak is a very specific and narrow. All it refers to is the amount of PR that is passed (voted) to an external page. No more, no less. The result can be positive, negative, or neutral depending upon where it is passed (voted).

When it comes to a PR leak, quality has nothing to do with the fact that any link to an external page is considered to have "leaked" PR. The concept is a very basic one. Any amount of PR that is passed (voted) to an external page is considered "leaked" because it cannot be passed internally no matter where it is passed (voted).

Quality comes into play after the fact. After the PR is leaked. Because depending upon "where" it is passed (voted) the end result can be positive, negative, or neutral. Basic examples strictly from a PR standpoint...

Positive end result... You link to page, that links to a page, that links to page, etc., etc., that links back to you, passing (voting) you more PR than you passed (voted) with the external link.

Negative end result... You link to page, that links to a page, that links to page, etc., etc., that links back to you, passing (voting) you less PR than you passed (voted) with the external link.

Neutral end result... You link to page, that links to a page, that links to page, etc., etc., that links back to you, passing (voting) you the same PR that you passed (voted) with the external link.

Dave

[janeth]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Negative end result... You link to page, that links to a page, that links to page, etc., etc., that links back to you, passing (voting) you less PR than you passed (voted) with the external link.
Dave

Or that never links to you at all.

[Russianzio12]

[quote=crankydave;412717]PR leak is a very specific and narrow. All it refers to is the amount of PR that is passed (voted) to an external page. No more, no less. The result can be positive, negative, or neutral depending upon where it is passed (voted).

I do not agree with the term "PR leak" It is invented by webmasters, thats a fact. If we started reffering to Matt Cutts considering he is the only link between Google and webmasters, i can add his explanation of nofollow attribute in relation with PR flow. First off he suggests using nofollow on blogs and all the sites where people edit content or comment to reduce the spam and not at all to prevent the site from losing its PR! He never mentions and neither any other Google authority on the fact of the "PR leaks" of a page linking to another, it rather flows!

A PR flow from a page linking to other pages does exist and spreads equaly and semi-equaly, depending on the relativity and even making the link bold could give more power to the voted page! Now here is what i can explain about "voting" Google staff always uses this term "a vote" We can now compare Google to voting during elections! Not the democratic voting though as the power of each vote is not the same from different voters (sites). A single page has a finite PR, as stated above by Dave, i'd put it as a "finite voting power" and there is a BIG difference between internal and external votes! If voting correctly they do not influence each other!

Voting does not change your status in the society to lower! That is the same for the sites in Google index. Stating "PR leak" as the cause of your page losing its status is wrong. PR leak, if we approve this term, applies only to the sites that recieve links and get less promotion in Google society. The only thing that can leak here is a PR flow when there is less PR power coming to a site. That happens when you recieve a link from a page with multiple outgoing votes!

[kgun]

So this No Follow Tag | Internal Use of No Follow Tag article is misleading?

[Russianzio12]

I see where the term "leaking" comes from Well it's not really misleading, its correct, needs just one thing to add. The main "bucket" doesn't lose its power for internal pages by pouring to external. External nofollow seals help other externally linked pages! Internal seals help internal pages linked with dofollow. External and internal links do not compete!!

[Russianzio12]

Originally Posted by crankydave
"Negative end result... You link to page, that links to a page, that links to page, etc., etc., that links back to you, passing (voting) you less PR than you passed (voted) with the external link."

There is no negative result in this case! By linking to other sites you do not lose your internal power, only the external one. The vote is counted as positive! Basically guys: do not be afraid of linking to quality sites they will not lower your internal site's power in PR passed to your pages nor in SERPS!!!! The negative result is only for other sites you link to!!!

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

There is no negative result in this case! By linking to other sites you do not lose your internal power, only the external one. The vote is counted as positive! Basically guys: do not be afraid of linking to quality sites they will not lower your internal site's power in PR passed to your pages nor in SERPS!!!!

The page only has so much pr to pass around. It passes it with internal and external links.

If you have a $100.00 it does not matter if you spend it on your family or your friends. Either one causes you to have less.

[Russianzio12]

Originally Posted by janeth

The page only so much pr to pass around. It passes it with internal and external links.

If you have a $100.00 it does not matter if you spend it on your family or your friends. Either one causes you to have less.

Janeth, you always post the same statements. Whats the use of them? Please read everything within this thread and understand what we are talking about. Try experimenting with your sites and you will gain knowlage. Testing testing and testing your own sites throughout years would shed a light on this issue.

I would recommend that as the things you read on some sites are not facts! I understand that your site is doing so well without external linking, but try it out by adding a couple of related outbound links to it. You will see that nothing would change to you PR nor to your SERPS!!! Try it with 10 of your sites, collect the precise information during a year and post your results, i would be glad to see them!! Your family and friends examples have nothing to do with Google algo.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

Janeth, you always post the same statements. Whats the use of them?

I'm hoping you'll get it at some point.

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

Please read everything within this thread and understand what we are talking about.

I believe everyone agrees with me, it's you that doesn't get it.

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

Try experimenting with your sites and you will gain knowlage. Testing testing and testing your own sites throughout years would shed a light on this issue.

I test everyday and know how it works.

Originally Posted by Russianzio12

I would recommend that as the things you read on some sites are not facts! I understand that your site is doing so well without external linking, but try it out by adding a couple of related outbound links to it. You will see that nothing would change to you PR nor to your SERPS!!! Try it with 10 of your sites, collect the precise information during a year and post your results, i would be glad to see them!! Your family and friends examples have nothing to do with Google algo.

I've tested it and I know how it works. As a matter of fact I knew about before everyone started talking about page rank sculpting.

[janeth]

Originally Posted by kgun

So this No Follow Tag | Internal Use of No Follow Tag article is misleading?

Yes, it is.