keyword to page association

[Peter (IMC)]

Anybody know about keyword to page association in Google?

What do I mean?

suppose you´re ranking in position 3 and you really want to rank number 1 for your keyword phrase. But the 2 pages that rank above you are ranking there only because of the authority of the site, not because of the content of the page it self.

The keyword is mentioned just once in the text on the page. It's not in the title or anywhere else in the page. The only reason it's ranking is because it happens to be in a very popular site. Let's say a news article in the newyork times.

If you'd link to that page with completely different keywords, for example the real subject of the page,.... would you disassociate that page from the phrase you´re after?

Anybody got any experience with that?

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

But the 2 pages that rank above you are ranking there only because of the authority of the site, not because of the content of the page it self.

Can you give a real example or two?

[incrediblehelp]

Sounds like just a theory Peter. Also i would assume you would need 1000's of high quality links to this page to change the ratio into your favor, to remove them from the ranking your trying to achieve.

[Peter (IMC)]

It's definitely just a theory yes,.. That's why I posted the question. Perhaps somebody has some experience with it. I'm doubtful that anybody does have this experience, but any opinion or experience can help with developping new ideas.

[srblogger]

The site that rates higher in Google results most likely has a stronger "theme" for the keyword.

[janeth]

I agree with incrediblehelp, if it did work it would take lots and lots of links and if those same links were applied to your own site wouldn't you be able to knock them out of the way?

When they did the miserable failure links for Bush did it change his rankings else where?

[Andilinks]

I also agree that it would require more links than it would be worth. But if it did work it would (or should) eventually create some penalty for you.

[ictadvis]

Hi Peter

If I think you are referring to the site you are most associated with in your profession, then I think from reading other people's comments you do have some work to do. The home page has a 2/10 page rank, there are around 12 pages of the site indexed and Google has listed around 4 inbound links that are in its opinion quality ones.

If you want to push your way up to the top position then you are going to have to do things the ethical way. Add more pages to the site, around 3-4 a month. You don't want Google to think your site is all of a sudden coming at it with a Tsunami of pages. In addition to this plan a inbound links strategy for your website. This is a hand submission exercise - NO AUTO SOFTWARE SUBMISSIONS - seek out sites/directories of relevance and hand submit an appropriate piece of content with a relevant link back to a page within your site. I am sure I don't really have to explain this considering the business you are in - if of course I have been looking at the right website associated with you.

My theory is regulary get some good quality inbound links to your site. When Yahoo has clocked a whole list of them for your site - over time - then Google will have its pick of links from this list that Yahoo is looking at. But be rest assured Google will only list a handful of what Yahoo is looking at, because as we all know - Google works on quality.

[Christiaan]

At time you have to admit defeat.

I know of a site that suffers the same challenge.
The no 1 listed site is a University site for the keyword.
Unfotunately, one of the faculty member that is listed on thay site has the name of the keyword.
And naturally it appears as no 1.
I do not think that is is possible to beat the 800,000 links that this site has.

However, concentrating on a keyword with say two words might help.

[smo]

Onsite facters like number of keyword etc won't contribute to ranking, google won't allow that. The rule is any thing under the cotntrol of webmaster should not impact ranking. We can jut qualify to ranking system ( for that keyword ) by adding content and improving the title , site links, more related topics etc but our position for that keyword depends on external factors.. I can only guess like back links, age of the domain with that keyword, back links or related topics etc.

[chiron]

Hi smo, sorry to disagree. But your statement is almost wholly inaccurate. The Title tag is on-site, the number and choice of keywords in the Title tag directly influence SERP rankings, and a Title tag is often useful for initial thoughts on anchor text in soliciting IBLs, all of this being within the potential control of the webmaster (or whomever).

Quality and quantity of backlinks + domain age are also factors, just as you said. As the post above noted, .edu domains are often wrinkled old-timers with loads of permanent links coming from other wrinkled old domains, in large part due to the way the web and telephony and technology and personal computers rolled out, which is one reason they can appear unassailable from an SEO perspective.

[zephyrireland]

I think you would need to increase the number of Quality inbound links with that keywords as anchor text.
The amount you would need to out-gun the opposition would probably be so many that it would increase your PR anyway.

Seems like a tough task.

[mawells]

I think you'd be wasting your time. Don't forget the "human factor" - the person searching is no dummy, they can readily see from the results presented which ones are most relevant to what they're seeking. So if the top two sites happen to be universities, associations, or sites that really do not compete with you - don't fret it.

If, on the other hand, the top two sites are direct competitors, then you have your work cut out for you by making your site the "authority" on the subject. Use a blog, social networking, online directories - anything that is a GOOD source for your link (not a spammy source). There is no short cut to getting higher rankings and beware of over-optimzing - Google seems to penalize sites that go overboard with obvious SEO techniques.

Build a good, comprehensive site and the rankings will follow.

[sofomor]

by Peter: But the 2 pages that rank above you are ranking there only because of the authority of the site, not because of the content of the page it self.

This is called "Self Reinforcing Authority" and its 100% true for "authority" or domains which are "old". I'm sure everyone faces this issue. I would like you to watch this video by Aaron Wall on the subject.

by Peter: If you'd link to that page with completely different keywords, for example the real subject of the page,.... would you disassociate that page from the phrase you´re after?

No, not at all. Why?

Because if you start link building for "different keywords", the site will only go UP on rankings for them not go DOWN for terms you want to rank. It would simply have NO EFFECT at all for your targeted keywords.

by Peter: The keyword is mentioned just once in the text on the page. It's not in the title or anywhere else in the page. The only reason it's ranking is because it happens to be in a very popular site. Let's say a news article in the newyork times.

The best example I can give (and its popular) is the "click here" fact.

If you search for "click here" on Google, the #1 site which comes up is "Adobe". The competition is humongous.But if you open up the page (wearing your On-Page SEO glasses) you won't find the word "click here" anywhere on the copy. At least it should be in the "title" or "H1" or somewhere at all....but nope......

Then why its ranking? its definately because the "linking" websites are using this term "click here" to link to "Adobe" and its there and would be there untill someone wants to get it down.

......

Thank you

[joer80]

I think it would do no good.

I think there are 2 types of relevance. Site and page. I know a strong enough website does not need site relevance, and I would be willing to bet that the page is by default relevant to the search term no matter what based on on page factors alone, and any additional keywords / link jucie you send their way will just increase the relevance for extra keywords, not hurt the current rankings.

[sunbedkid]

Peter,
I think I understand what you are thinking of doing, but IMO it has not got a chance of working. If you managed to get a ton of unfavourable anchor texts pointing towards this other site, that alone would not defeat it. You would not bring it down at all, in fact I the opposite is more likely - you would give it more strength. I do not believe that Google penalises a site for different anchor texts, it just gives a page more weight if the incoming links have anchor text related to the content of the page.

Google does not penalise a site for having incoming links of unworthy anchor text. After all, you cannot control the way other people link to you.

People who are trying to outwit search engines are waisting their time, much better to concentrate on making their own sites better.

[Terry Van Horne]

Originally Posted by smo

Onsite facters like number of keyword etc won't contribute to ranking, google won't allow that.

Yes it does contribute and Google does allow it!

Originally Posted by smo

The rule is any thing under the cotntrol of webmaster should not impact ranking.

That's your rule not Google's! Obviously <title> does have a weighting. You've been drinking the linkeroti "purple koolaid"!

Originally Posted by smo

We can jut qualify to ranking system ( for that keyword ) by adding content and improving the title , site links, more related topics etc but our position for that keyword depends on external factors.

Those factors are actually more important than the links since... if there is "no Content" there is nothing to link to and it takes many many many more links to accomplish the benefit from just IBLs.

Originally Posted by smo

I can only guess like back links, age of the domain with that keyword, back links or related topics etc.

Nope you donn't have to guess! Try the "wayback machine" ...DNS Records or a Site IP sweep. There's lots of ways to find that info how do you think Google gets it? Don't use the link: command search for the site in quotes. That will show all links and references to your competitor in the index. IMO, more important then knowing the nonsense the link: command returns. IMO, it has always been better even when the command wasn't massaged to hide stuff.

[crankydave]

Interesting theory Peter. Something else simply to consider.

Let's say the real subject of the page is somehow related to the keyword/phrase it is ranking for. You could conceivably bolster the sites strength by making it "more related" on a broader spectrum.

Also, I tend to agree the other comments the amount of time, effort, and links it would take to effect such a "possible" change would likely be better used and spent on the #3 site .

Dave