NEWS!!! Google re-introduces PageRank

[Webnauts]

So dear WPW members. Who said that PageRank is not important? Me? Never! You?

The most famous part of Googlesranking algorithm is PageRank, an algorithm developed by Larry Page and Sergey Brin, who founded Google. And PageRank is still in use today, but it is now a part of a much larger system.

Google introduces PageRank - 20 May 2008
Official Google Blog: Introduction to Google Search Quality

[incrediblehelp]

Nothing really new from Udi. I do like the following quotes to help drive home the idea that we dont have stable rankings anymore:

“When an engineer gets a new idea and develops a new algorithm, we test their ideas thoroughly. We have a team of statisticians who look at all the data and determine the value of the new idea. We meet weekly (sometimes twice a week) to go over those new ideas and approve new launches. In 2007, we launched more than 450 new improvements, about 9 per week on the average.”

and

“…we made significant changes to the PageRank algorithm in January.”

and

“PageRank is still in use today, but it is now a part of a much larger system. Other parts include language models (the ability to handle phrases, synonyms, diacritics, spelling mistakes, and so on), query models (it’s not just the language, it’s how people use it today), time models (some queries are best answered with a 30-minutes old page, and some are better answered with a page that stood the test of time), and personalized models (not all people want the same thing”

[tomcatuk]

I've always been on the "it is an important factor" side of the fence, but am totally confused by the statement he makes about major changes implemented in January as I don't see any real difference. Got any idea what he might be talking about?

[zeruel]

I still value PR. The more PR, the better. But mostly I don't rely on that in terms of rankings...

[kgun]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Nothing really new from Udi. I do like the following quotes to help drive home the idea that we dont have stable rankings anymore.

1. When were the rankings stable?
2. What about relatively more unstable now?
3. How is that related to ToolBarRank, Googles measure of the importance of a page?

Wisdom of crowds links that is again related to PageRank (Votes by the bublic).

Wisdom of Crowds by James Surowiecki (kottke.org)

The Wisdom of Crowds

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by kgun

1. When were the rankings stable?
2. What about relatively more unstable now?
3. How is that related to ToolBarRank, Googles measure of the importance of a page?

kjell,

1. 2-3 years ago you achieved spots on a monthly basis and they stayed that way throughout the month until the next Google dance.


2. They are much more unstable and different than back then.

3. I dont think the toolbar is being discussed here.

[kgun]

My remarks in blue.

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

1. 2-3 years ago you achieved spots on a monthly basis and they stayed that way throughout the month until the next Google dance. Agree. I remember these dances, Florida, Burbon ...

2. They are much more unstable and different than back then. May be a natural result of more advnced filtering.

3. I dont think the toolbar is being discussed here. Important to know what we are talking about.

Good answers.

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

and

Quote:

“…we made significant changes to the PageRank algorithm in January.”

and

Notice what follows that statement:

for example, we made significant changes to the PageRank algorithm in January. Most of the time we look for improvements in relevancy, but we also work on projects where the sole purpose is to simplify the algorithms. Simple is good.

They simplified it.. I like that,.... means that link value is added faster (and taken away) now.

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by tomcatuk

I've always been on the "it is an important factor" side of the fence, but am totally confused by the statement he makes about major changes implemented in January as I don't see any real difference. Got any idea what he might be talking about?

Maior changes is more related to internal ranking processes than are visible in the SERP's. Also they work in many languages now which basically means you don't see anything when it's not in your language.

Many changes focus on really small details that aren't really visible on the outside. Imagine a car engine that has been improved. Maybe it now runs a couple of miles more on a gallon. You don't really notice that. (especially when oil keeps getting more expensive).

A maior change doesn't always mean a huge change in the SERP's.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

Notice what follows that statement:


They simplified it.. I like that,.... means that link value is added faster (and taken away) now.

Have you heard of original mathematical proofs initially occupying hundreds of pages later being compaced to a few pages?

Make it simple, as simple as possible but no simpler. Somtimes that is very complex.

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by kgun

Have you heard of original mathematical proofs initially occupying hundreds of pages later being compaced to a few pages?

Make it simple, as simple as possible but no simpler. Somtimes that is very complex.

oh yes I know. But the end result is always better. I'm addicted to keeping things simple. I call it an addiction because the natural human sense seems to be to always complicate things so that it seems more valuable.

One of my main tasks is to make sure people keep things simple. Unfortunately I haven't found the formula yet that makes this an automated system. It's something that always needs to be forced. I guess I also need to create a specific group for that. Maybe when the company is bigger..

[kevsta]

yea they didnt really reintroduce it did they? it never really went away to be fair.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Peter (IMC)

oh yes I know. But the end result is always better. I'm addicted to keeping things simple. I call it an addiction because the natural human sense seems to be to always complicate things so that it seems more valuable.

One of my main tasks is to make sure people keep things simple. Unfortunately I haven't found the formula yet that makes this an automated system. It's something that always needs to be forced. I guess I also need to create a specific group for that. Maybe when the company is bigger..

That is called:

1. Minimalism.
2. Kernal activity.
3. Outsourcing.

David Ricardo called it "The principle of comparative advantage aobut a century ago and said that Norway may have a natural advantage in producing dried cod, while Brazil have a natural advantage in producing fruit and wine. Portugal may have a comparative advantage in producing wine, while England has a comparative advantage in producing cloths (now that is China).

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by kgun

That is called:

1. Minimalism.
2. Kernal activity.
3. Outsourcing.

David Ricardo called it "The principle of comparative advantage aobut a century ago and said that Norway may have a natural advantage in producing dried cod, while Brazil have a natural advantage in producing fruit and wine. Portugal may have a comparative advantage in producing wine, while England has a comparative advantage in producing cloths (now that is China).

I'm sure that your explanation is correct but I was not talking about minimalism, kernal activity or outsourcing. Far from that. Those are completely different things. That's just trying to keep costs low through focusing.

Keeping things simple, to me, is more about not making things more complicated than necessary. Some simple examples:

• Don't create procedures for something simple like giving a new employee an email address. Just tell the guy that does this a new email address needs to be set up.
• When having to create optimized titles for a website, don't put them first in a word document so that later they can be added to the webpages. Just put them straight into the pages.

And on a more technical level:

• When building an optimized tableless HTML template for a website, don't create a CSS file of 1000 lines. Use the hiearchy of CSS to prevent having to redefine styles over and over again.

And on an analysis level:

• Always go for the most simple explanation, it's usually the correct one.
• Don't try to find relations between details, but try to understand the higher level goals through details. Don't explain through details, try to understand the objectives of why the details were created. Look at the details, go up in the hiearchy to explain,.. then go down again to understand why something somewhere was done. (this one is hard to explain, but it's what I do... )

[tbond]

KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Hey, I'm only quoting, no invective intended.

But, we should all remind ourselves that we are less bright, when we complexify what would otherwise be simple.

Google's algorithm is now simpler, and so should our marketing and SEO strategy.

Instead of constantly rewriting existing pages, and killing ourselves with bizarre and complicated marketing strategies aimed at acquiring external backlinks and endless multilevel layered referral technologies, why not simply build good pages, and more of them?

Building good pages is what the web is all about. At the end of the day, if we design simple, content rich, unique pages that give something to the web, the web will give us traffic to them.

How can we do that? A few simple rules:

1. Focus on one simple topic per page.

2. Divide that topic into 4 or 5 main ideas.

3. Make each of those ideas a sub-heading.

4. Write a good topical sentence in the first paragraph under each sub-head.

5. Write at least 2 or 3 more paragraphs of 50 or more words under that first
paragraph.

6. Go back to the top of the page and write a introduction paragraph that reflects,
but doesn't repeat what each of the sub-heading/paragraphs will state below.

7. Go to the end of the page and write a very short summary of what the page
has discussed. Do NOT repeat the top paragraph that you just wrote as the
introduction.

8. Add 4 or 5 outbound links to sites that discuss the topics and ideas discussed
on your page. In these links, make the link around 2 or 3 main keywords that
the page is "about" inside each link.

9. Link this page to several other pages inside your own site which discuss your
main keywords. Placing these links inside some of your paragraphs is better
than doing it in a sidebar or footer. Sidebar links and footer links are detected
and discounted by Google and some other engines. Make these links around
relatively unique wording if possible.

10. Now go to the TITLE tag of your page and write a unique, human readable
and short heading that starts with your main keyword or idea, and mentions
one or two more. This should not be exactly the same as your H1 tag, but
similar.

11. Now go to the META "Description" tag and write a nice short (150-160 character)
summary of the page that is a brief version of the INTRO paragraph or SUMMARY
paragraph in the page content. This is what Google may show to describe the
page for many searches.

12. Now go to the META "Keyword" tag and write 8-10 keywords and phrases that
are the main phrases from your heading and sub-heads, separating them with
commas. Don't over do this. Shorter may be better for most searches.

13. Then go to your graphics library and name one or two images something using
the keywords that are your main content ideas. Something like "keyword1_keyword2.jpg".
Place a normal language description of the image in the image tag ALT and TITLE tags.
Make this short and relate to the real content of the image, and the page.

14. Save this new page to your server using a name that uses 2 or 3 different keywords,
separated by dashes. You could use up to 5 or 6 if needed. Make the most important
keyword first in the list. Doesn't have to be sensible or grammatical.

15. Now go elsewhere on your site and make 4 or 5 links on different pages, one link
per page, pointing into this new page you are creating.

16. If you have time, then go to some social networking, forum sites, hub page or blog sites and
add a link or two to this new page from those sites, using keywords and short descriptions.
Make sure these links are on pages that actually are about a similar topic to this new page.

That's it! Pretty simple. No black hat or grey hat. Just plain good web content building.

If you do that, Google and the other guys will reward you. If you don't, they won't.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by zeruel

But mostly I don't rely on that in terms of rankings...

Are you serious?

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Are you serious?

John, back to start of the infinite WPW PageRank algorithme

He most probably mean that the hen (IBL's) came before the egg (PageRank)

Originally Posted by Webnauts

And PageRank is still in use today, but it is now a part of a much larger system.

And now it is more than IBL's

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

John, back to start of the infinite WPW PageRank algorithme

He most probably mean that the hen (IBL's) came before the egg (PageRank)



And now it is more than IBL's

I strongly believe that since Google cannot defend themselves successfully against artificial link building (building ur cheep linkz) , I believe that the link factors have became more strict than ever. That said, it is obvious that PR is no more just a minor ranking factor.

I am all the time scratching my head, when I read all over the place: Get backlinks! - Great tip for millionaires, but not for everyone.

I would expect an advise like: Fix or get rid of your supplemental pages, and then start thinking about link building.

Here is an interesting read to see where I come from: Got Supplementals? Accepting PageRank is Only The Beginning | Half’s SEO Notebook

I hope no one says here that the supplemental index does exist. If so, I will pull my hair out.

[Webnauts]

I get every damn day emails from India, offering me link building services. Then I write them back my expectations. Do you know how many write me back? NO ONE!!!

What does that mean? Make up your mind yourself.

Here are my requirements.

* Pages where the links will live must be indexed by Google, Yahoo, MSN and Ask.

* PageRank of the page where the link will live, will be visible in the Google Toolbar.

* Domain/Site must be at least 2 years old or must not be expiring before 3 years.

* Different C-class IP.

* Content relevance of the linking website to the content of your websites.

* Should not be living on pages with which end with links.php. or links.html, links.asp, links.jsp or so ever. Also pages should not be found in site directories named "links".

* The links should not have rel="nofollow.

* The pages the links will live should not have a nofollow meta tags, X-Robots, and should not be disallowed in the robots.txt.

* The pages the links will live, should have maximimum 60% OBLs of the total links of the living page (including the internal links. And links all together on the page should not be more than 100 (internal+external).

* Relevant keyword/keyphrases which is used in the anchor text of the links to the content of your page that the link points to.

* Keep checking your links on those pages once a week to make sure they appear in there, and if they have a well position or not for 6 months.

* No Dynamic link or redirection link.

* Do not use link popularity software.

* Not from directories, blogs and article directories.

* Not from FFA websites, web rings or link farms.

* Not from adult website.

What do you think? Am I asking for too much? If yes, what is too much?

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Here is an interesting read to see where I come from:

John, I would not take that article seriously.

And to the next post. Note there are more than Se that drive traffic. Banner links. Can you rely on them? Hopefully, if they are from serious companies.

Generally, I agree with you. Semantic, contextual stable (banner) links will be more and more important.

[incrediblehelp]

I hope no one says here that the supplemental index does exist. If so, I will pull my hair out.

LOLOLOLOL

[kgun]

I see very strong reasons why it exists.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

I see very strong reasons why it exists.

I use my own. Some good articles may get a link immediately.

Sure Kjell. Me too. But I need them for customers, and I do not have the time and capacity to do that, so I have to outsource that work.

[kgun]

I edited that post since I first confused it with the sandbox.

To conclude: I see very strong reasons why both the SI and sandbox exist.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

John, I would not take that article seriously.

I do. I often and very recently found duplicated pages showing PR in the toolbar. What do you think about that.
Also, two months ago I had a client who had his site hosted on 3 different domains and all had PR.

Wha do you think the PR sculpting story is about?

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

I do. I often and very recently found duplicated pages showing PR in the toolbar. What do you think about that.
Also, two months ago I had a client who had his site hosted on 3 different domains and all had PR.

Wha do you think the PR sculpting story is about?

The reason I do not take it seriously, is inconsistency between the subject and the picture that IMO is out of context. You may have another view.

I do not need to use time to read the rest of the subject there.

Does PR Sculpting Work?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

The reason I do not take it seriously, is inconsistency between the subject and the picture that IMO is out of context. You may have another view.

I do not need to use time to read the rest of the subject there.

Does PR Sculpting Work?

Stay tune Kjell. I will come back in the next hour(s) with facts, not theories. OK?
Let me prepare something.

[Webnauts]

OK Kjell, here we go:

I have setup an affiliate page on my site and added a link to it only from my sitemap. The same time I have setup in my .htaccess file the X-Robots header to nofollow.

I checked its functionality using the FF X-Robots Greasemonkey, which you can see in the screenshot here:



If you have noticed, the page has in the Google Toolbar PR 0 and not N/A, but that because I got an IBL from Jaan's blog. The page is also indexed in the search results.

So internally I do not share PR with this page.

What do you think about that now? Doesn't PR sculpting work or not?

P.S. The live page is here: Online Reputation Management by RatePoint - SEO Workers

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Stay tune Kjell. I will come back in the next hour(s) with facts, not theories. OK?

I like serious facts.

When I go to you homepage, my first impression is good.

Have a question? Currently offline. Leave a message.

It is possible to let a bot handle standard communication and as a last resort leave a message. Note the Bot can handle n customers simultaneously 1 --> n.

But you may get more customers than you can handle.

Originally Posted by Webnauts

I have setup an affiliate page on my site and added a link to it only from my sitemap. The same time I have setup in my .htaccess file the X-Robots header to nofollow.

I don't find your affiliate page. I recommend that you use Comission Junction. You should have no problem being accepted in my view.

What do "the X-Robots header to nofollow" do? I can look it up, but better that you explain. See my technique below.

Originally Posted by Webnauts

If you have noticed, the page has in the Google Toolbar PR 0 and not N/A, but that because I got an IBL from Jaan's blog. The page is also indexed in the search results.

So internally I do not share PR with this page.

What do you think about that now? Doesn't PR sculpting work or not?

My bolding. I will put the burden on you to explain. That was a technique I learned as a Client Sevice Reporting Specialist in Skandia Group .

Originally Posted by Webnauts

P.S. The live page is here: Online Reputation Management by RatePoint - SEO Workers

<cite>
RatePoint is the first consumer-driven program that provides businesses with an affordable, interactive customer feedback platform that allows you to easily collect feedback from customers and manage it in a meaningful way.
</cite>
Are you sure?

Reputation management and marketing has been online at least since 2002 as far as I know.

John, now we shall do an experiment for free. You may have noticed that you are included here RedCarpetRank - Webs outstanding sites, resources and articles

No I put rel="nofollow" on all links aside from your and David Burdons. In a month we can see if there is an effect.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

I like serious facts.

When I go to you homepage, my first impression is good.

Have a question? Currently offline. Leave a message.

It is possible to let a bot handle standard communication and as a last resort leave a message. Note the Bot can handle n customers simultaneously 1 --> n.

But you may get more customers than you can handle.

Well looks like you go love going off-topic. But I will answer to that. If I am not available for online support, I have to turn it off. It is already cool enough that I provide that services when I can.

Originally Posted by kgun

I don't find your affiliate page. I recommend that you use Comission Junction. You should have no problem being accepted in my view.

That is not my program. I am an affiliate. And FYI I have a Commission Juction account.

Originally Posted by kgun

What do "the X-Robots header to nofollow" do? I can look it up, but better that you explain. See my technique below.

Google: Official Google Blog: Robots Exclusion Protocol: now with even more flexibility

Yahoo: Yahoo! Search Blog: Yahoo! Search Support for X-Robots-Tag Directive to Simplify Webmaster's Control and Weather Update

Originally Posted by kgun

<cite>
RatePoint is the first consumer-driven program that provides businesses with an affordable, interactive customer feedback platform that allows you to easily collect feedback from customers and manage it in a meaningful way.
</cite>
Are you sure?

Reputation management and marketing has been online at least since 2002 as far as I know.

I am more aware that you can imagine that Reputation Management & Marketing exists longer. But how long does a tool of its kind exist?

So, lets stay on topic or lets give it up brother.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

I am more aware that you can imagine that Reputation Management & Marketing exists longer. But how long does a tool of its kind exist?

I have seen other tools, but am unsure. Generally, I am very sceptical when I see the term "first" and "best" on a site.

Did you note the last part of my post? I have now put rel="nofollow" on all links aside from yours and David's so we can test it for a month. May be the page is too unimportant to produce an effect. If you wan't the link removed or nofollowed let me know.

The test if you are interested, will last until the 20th of June 2008.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

I have seen other tools, but am unsure. Generally, I am very sceptical when I see the term "first" and "best" on a site.

Did you note the last part of my post? I have now put rel="nofollow" on all links aside from yours and David's so we can test it for a month. May be the page is too unimportant to produce an effect. If you wan't the link removed or nofollowed let me know.

The test if you are interested, will last until the 20th of June 2008.

1. We are not talking about the nofollow attribute.
2. What are you testing?
3. Why should I want my link removed or nofollowed?
4. Is on the 20th of June your birthday?

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

2. What are you testing?

Passing all PageRank to two external pages.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Is on the 20th of June your birthday?

1. You know the Devil's birthday is 2nd. November. That is my birthday. And I love the Red Devils from Manchester.
2. In addition, when I joined the Central Bank of Norway in 1977, I got the initials KGB.
3. Still want a stable semantic link that is followed by professor GoogleBOT and linkjuice concentrated on two pages for a month as part of an experiment?

[kevsta]

Originally Posted by kgun

Passing all PageRank to two external pages.

imo this definitely works.

if you were using a certain anchor text and monitoring the phrase on SERPs, as soon as the page cached you would see an initial spike, the SERP jump comes even before you can see the new page in the cache, but often you can see altered page titles in the serp, along with the corresponding jump from the link coming live, but still the old page in cache for a day or two.

then there's a sudden drop as the dampening filters come in, and then in a week or so a slow climb upwards again, gathering pace from about 2 weeks until reaching max level anywhere between 4 and 8 weeks from the page caching. ..it may continue to build after that obviously & is always difficult to totally isolate the effects from everything else of course but thats always the approximate pattern.

have been playing with this here: seo power with just one really "strong" link (ie minimal links offpage) using targeted anchors at different blog posts in small stable (ish) serps for a couple of months now.

there's also a great post on seo scientist with funky graphs tracking links & serps showing the same pattern in action.

& it doesnt appear to have much to do with "relevance" of where the link is, anchor text makes every link relevant IMO

[kgun]

Originally Posted by kevsta

imo this definitely works.

I am unsure, and if people from Google watch this thread, I hope that they do not disturb GoogleBOT

But may be a period of one month is too short. I have thought of extending the test periode to three or max six months.

If your analysis is correct, do you see the problem? You can nofollow all links except those that are paid behind the scene.

This is a test and I will not accept any payment from the two pages involved, but I may get an indirect effect, since the involved site may be more known.

The potential indirect SEO effect to the involved sites may be deserved, at least in my personal opinion.

[kevsta]

i know what you mean it feels kind of contraversial to say out loud

but its how it looks, you know? ..what are we supposed to do, lie? to be fair this is far from scientific testing, its more like messing about trying things out.

thats why i was testing first in the secontest thing (without entering) and now on random non-money words, definitely no cash involved, just curiosity.

[kgun]

And from Bayesian decision theory I learned, that if an opponent (GoogleBot here) identify your agenda, the best way is to (partially) randomice. You randomice a (sub)set of links that are nofollowed with a higher weight on the links that are paid behind the scene. What do the (adaptive) GoogleBOT do in those cases?

Related link: Penalties: How many are there?

One obvious PageRank algorithme adjustment is to allocate pagerank initially depending on the age of a site.

If not there is an obvious case for black hat SEO. Set up 10 000 sites on differnet geolocations and IP's. You are able to guess the rest. This is difficult GoogleBOT unless you are able to identify (partially) randomized link bases behind the scene.

This is the opposite of link selling hurting a site. So the final question is.

Why should you not decide who you will distribute your PageRank to, whether it is sold or not?

You find a lot of related links here: kbleivik's bookmarks on del.icio.us

There is one other solution (last part of that post): How large is infinite?

The final solution is to decouple the relation between IBL's (or derived PageRank) and SERP position.

Bots and crawlers are not "human beings" yet. or are they much more advanced than we can imagine in our wildest fantasies?

[Webnauts]

Since this thread died a while ago, I decided to continue the discussion here. The ones who haven't visited it yet, are very welcome.