How Many Legitimate Business Did Google Kill?

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by arius

It is not like I am trying to not learn, or care how to improve. So again Dave, THANK YOU. Your input will be well used ...

arius... From what little bit I've looked at, many of your "problems" revolve around what you have done, or not done, to your website yourself. Not Google.

While "venting" may create interest or a respite, it doesn't correct the problems.

Fix your canonical issues as well as your navigation issues. Then see where you stand.

Dave

[orangemike]

Originally Posted by Andilinks

Google's treacherous secrecy forces honest business people to abandon their primary interests, ignore their customers and become SEOs, or worse yet become a victim of the legions of practitioners who pretend to know what makes Google tick. I don't expect this sentiment will make me very popular around here. The very existence of this thread testifies to the dismal way Google communicates with honest businesses that want to have profitable web sites.

"Treacherous secrecy"? That's bizarre. The more open they are with their algorithms, the more ingenious the scammers and black-hat SEO types will get with their manipulation. It is vital to their business model that people not be able to game the system too easily. It sounds like some of Arius' attempts to game the system have bitten him on the b***, and he wants to complain about it, rather than improve his site. He paid nothing to Google; they owe him the same.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by weslinda

Wait...you mean...that even though I'm not paying a penny to Google, and they have brought me thousands of dollars in sales...for nothing...I don't have the right to complain that this months sales from them is $5k versus last months $10k. But they're putting me out of business with that type of change.

You must be kidding, of course I have a right to complain.

A right to complain, yes; but, not a right to expect Google to give a damn.

Sorry, but the best that you can expect is that the Chaplain punches your TS card.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by weslinda

BJ, links on here are nofollow.

Why, then, does Google's "Web Alert" report them?

And, why does "nofollow" not appear in the hrefs for sigs in the page source code?

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by weslinda

ami_iss: why would you give out such a list of knowledge? first, they didn't ask for the knowledge and second, knowledge is value and power, don't just give it away to anyone...

Look at the whole Jason Calacanis episode to understand that some people just want the free advice Open Challenge to Jason Calacanis

Well, then, if one should not "give away" knowledge, what's the point of this forum's existence?

[DoneInStyle]

What would you if your site is penalized by Google & you don't know why?
Close your business
Send official attorney demands asking for answer
Send Googleplex presents to get somebody's attention
Give a full page magazine ad with open letter asking question to Google
Nothing

How about "NONE OF THE ABOVE" ???

I notice there is no option for doing the research to find out what's wrong.
There is also no option for paying for expert help to figure out what's wrong.
There's also no option for doing the work to fix the site when you've done the research or paid for the research to find out what's wrong.

I hate to tell you this, but most of the posters are correct when they say you tanked your own site. Google had nothing to do with this, they're just the one who happened to write the algorithm you ran afoul of.

And, in my opinion, your attitude about the whole thing doesn't warrant the incredibly helpful and very thorough response you got. And apparently, from what I'm reading, I'm not the only one who feels that way.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by weslinda

Anyone noticing silence from the Google hater? I bet that he simply did this to create some love for his own site. Gotta love the people causing issues so they can get a few more visitors to their great drug testing web site.

Well, the OP has in fact made a number of posts in response to others; that he has failed to meet your expectations in that regard, and to therefore conclude that he "hates" Google and/or merely seeks to draw our attention to his site for some unspecified reason is to assume facts not in evidence.

[Andilinks]

Originally Posted by orangemike

"Treacherous secrecy"? That's bizarre...

I entirely understand why the inner workings of the algorithm cannot be public. The treachery is Google's unwillingness to communicate with people of good will. The arrogant founders and management would rather let the unscrupulous SEOs prey upon the public than deal with the problem themselves. They certainly have the resources to cut out these middlemen and cultivate a good relationship with small business but they would prefer to maintain the fantasy of robotic mystery by changing the rules in secret and making people guess what could possibly have gone wrong. Consequently the businesses that do well online are not those that provide the best products and services but those that are best able to navigate the corrupt system. There is no time to lovingly provide widgets to the public, only time to play bizarre guessing games with the ever-changing algorithm.

This is likely to continue for the forseeable future, but it is their greatest vunerability. It will take an extrordinary competitor to drive a wedge there, but it could happen. The Google magic cannot last forever. I for one am sorry I was once an enthusiastic booster and would do things differently if I had it to do over. One lucky thing at least was getting out of GOOG over 600.

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by deepsand

A right to complain, yes; but, not a right to expect Google to give a damn.

Sorry, but the best that you can expect is that the Chaplain punches your TS card.

Deep: Apparently you didn't notice the sarcasm but I can't expect everyone to understand the joke.

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by deepsand

Why, then, does Google's "Web Alert" report them?

And, why does "nofollow" not appear in the hrefs for sigs in the page source code?

Deep: A little late to the party, this has already been discussed, commented and corrected by me. But thanks for your late input.

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by deepsand

Well, then, if one should not "give away" knowledge, what's the point of this forum's existence?

Deep: The OP obviously wasn't seeking assistance to improve their site, wasn't in their original request. And the OP also shared later on that they were discussing Google, not their site's issues.

I'm all for sharing knowledge, but offering a laundry list of help for someone who obviously didn't request it is in my opinion a waste of people's time. Of course, as we all are allowed to have, it's simply my opinion. I guess I'm not allowed to have one here.

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by deepsand

Well, the OP has in fact made a number of posts in response to others; that he has failed to meet your expectations in that regard, and to therefore conclude that he "hates" Google and/or merely seeks to draw our attention to his site for some unspecified reason is to assume facts not in evidence.

Deep: When that post was made, that doesn't hold truth. While there were a couple of early replies, but a long range from that point. Also, if you can't see the distaste for Google from the OP, then I recommend you re-read his original post. I see it as someone who has simply chosen to come and rant against the evil tyrant, when in fact, the issues are at his level, not Google's. I have to be perfectly honest that I don't care for anyone that feels Google or any other Search Engine owes them something when they don't pay for any service from any of those organizations. I'm allowed to have that opinion and I'm allowed to call it as I see it.

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by crankydave

You've made your position quite clear weslinda. Members are able to read what you have posted as well as decide for themselves what was intended.

Dave

And? I'm unclear on when I'm not allowed to say how I feel, however many times I chose to feel like sharing it.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by weslinda

Deep: Apparently you didn't notice the sarcasm but I can't expect everyone to understand the joke.

You're correct; I detected no sarcasm. Perhaps if WP were to provide us with either a wider range of emoticons, or allow us to link to our own, there would be fewer misunderstandings here.

As clarification, please note that I am not saying that we've no right to complain; to the contrary, I believe that anyone who has been wronged by another has such right. Unfortunately, there is a distinction between having such right and having standing for achieving meanful redress.

Sometimes life just sucks.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by weslinda

Deep: A little late to the party, this has already been discussed, commented and corrected by me. But thanks for your late input.

Yep, that's me; always late. Fortunately, there are times when being late does prove to be an advantage.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by weslinda

Deep: The OP obviously wasn't seeking assistance to improve their site, wasn't in their original request. And the OP also shared later on that they were discussing Google, not their site's issues.

I'm all for sharing knowledge, but offering a laundry list of help for someone who obviously didn't request it is in my opinion a waste of people's time. Of course, as we all are allowed to have, it's simply my opinion. I guess I'm not allowed to have one here.

While the OP's original question may have been the wrong one to ask, he was clearly seeking assistance. Should we then offer none, or that which he needs?

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by Andilinks

I entirely understand why the inner workings of the algorithm cannot be public. The treachery is Google's unwillingness to communicate with people of good will. The arrogant founders and management would rather let the unscrupulous SEOs prey upon the public than deal with the problem themselves. They certainly have the resources to cut out these middlemen and cultivate a good relationship with small business but they would prefer to maintain the fantasy of robotic mystery by changing the rules in secret and making people guess what could possibly have gone wrong. Consequently the businesses that do well online are not those that provide the best products and services but those that are best able to navigate the corrupt system. There is no time to lovingly provide widgets to the public, only time to play bizarre guessing games with the ever-changing algorithm.

This is likely to continue for the forseeable future, but it is their greatest vunerability. It will take an extrordinary competitor to drive a wedge there, but it could happen. The Google magic cannot last forever. I for one am sorry I was once an enthusiastic booster and would do things differently if I had it to do over. One lucky thing at least was getting out of GOOG over 600.

Seriously? Google makes ranking in Google unbelievably easy. Sure, if you're trying to compete for a term like Car Insurance, guess what, you better be at the top of the heap. A local one man insurance shop shouldn't outrank the national car insurance provider he is an agent for.

For numerous sites, in numerous search times, I've had no issues getting web sites to rank well within Google. Want to know my secret? I'll let everyone in on it since we're into giving away the farm with tips and tricks.

Here it is:

I build a web site with clean, semantic code, organized the same way I would an outline the information to anyone in any format. I don't use things within the site that are unneeded and the content on the site is written specifically for the value of the web site's visitors. I use the terms that are relevant to my site, nothing else.

Amazingly, this, coupled with quality exposure and marketing of the business seems to works wonders.

It's unfortunate that so many people feel that the tried and true basics of business can simply get thrown out of the equation when we're dealing with the internet.

People don't go to Johns Hopkins Hospital because they have a great name, they go because of the high quality of services offered with the institution as well as the reputation of the physicians among other physicians across the globe. In the same way, Google chooses to rank web sites, the most reputable sites for the most part rank the highest. It's really very simple.

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by deepsand

You're correct; I detected no sarcasm. Perhaps is WP were to provide us with either a wider range of emoticons, or allow us to link to our own, there would be fewer misunderstandings here.

As clarification, please note that I am not saying that we've no right to complain; to the contrary, I believe that anyone who has been wronged by another has such right. Unfortunately, there is a distinction between having such right and having standing for achieving meanful redress.

Sometimes life just sucks.

I presumed it was obvious that I was mocking this point of deserving redress when getting a service for free. My point was that it's simply idiotic to complain about Google's natural search results not bringing you the business you "deserve".

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by deepsand

Yep, that's me; always late. Fortunately, there are times when being late does prove to be an advantage.

We're all late sometimes, of course, many times I simply prefer to simply not show up.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by weslinda

Deep: When that post was made, that doesn't hold truth. While there were a couple of early replies, but a long range from that point. Also, if you can't see the distaste for Google from the OP, then I recommend you re-read his original post. I see it as someone who has simply chosen to come and rant against the evil tyrant, when in fact, the issues are at his level, not Google's. I have to be perfectly honest that I don't care for anyone that feels Google or any other Search Engine owes them something when they don't pay for any service from any of those organizations. I'm allowed to have that opinion and I'm allowed to call it as I see it.

I quite agree that the OP's frustration was readily apparent; and, that his expectations were unrealistic. However, I find nothing to suggest that he was merely seeking attention; to the contrary, he seems to have held a deep belief, however unfounded, that he was truly being persecuted, and was searching for others who had been so treated in the hopes of finding a solution to his imagined problem.

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by deepsand

While the OP's original question may have been the wrong one to ask, he was clearly seeking assistance. Should we then offer none, or that which he needs?

Deep: The OP actually corrected someone who offered advice, so I took him at his word and assumed he actually didn't want any advice. After his correction, I simply saw him as someone focused on griping with Google versus focusing on what he might be able to do to improve his web site. See below.

Originally Posted by arius

Dave, Index.asp is a great point. Thanks. That could be it...

Once again, my point with starting this thread was not trying to figure out what I did wrong (which actually I am thanks to your great comments) but on a higher level express my frastruation with Google's lack of customer service to all of us: site owners, biz owners, webmasters. Yes they have the tools and online accounts but why can not we call a number and ask why am I being penalized from your search engine and they say because you forgot your index.asp as a second home page. And I go yes, thank you. Will fix it.

I think assuming that Google has only responsibility to its Shareholders and nobody else, is the same mentality that says: Ok if Enron steals from its shareholders its bad, but if Enron gauges the price for consumers, or tries to trick small business to make more money it is ok.

Anyway, too much philosophy I guess. But again here is my question again.

How many legitimate online businesses you think Google killed in the past because those businesses did not know where to ask the question "why I am being penalized"? and Dave said "look at your index.asp".

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by deepsand

I quite agree that the OP's frustration was readily apparent; and, that his expectations were unrealistic. However, I find nothing to suggest that he was merely seeking attention; to the contrary, he seems to have held a deep belief, however unfounded, that he was truly being persecuted, and was searching for others who had been so treated in the hopes of finding a solution to his imagined problem.

Well, perhaps it was or was not his intention, but it was my take on the situation.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by weslinda

I presumed it was obvious that I was mocking this point of deserving redress when getting a service for free. My point was that it's simply idiotic to complain about Google's natural search results not bringing you the business you "deserve".

Well, Google's "service" is actually not free; while one may not make payment directly to Google for placement in the organic listings, such placement does in fact entail costs.

And, Google itself benefits from the efforts of web site owners/operators to design their sites so as to well comport with their standards, for without such, users may chose to use another SE, and thus deprive Google of ad revenues.

Therefore, it would be in Google's best interest to not ignore the needs of site owner/operators, but to voluntarily assist them to a greater extent than is presently the case.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by weslinda

Well, perhaps it was or was not his intention, but it was my take on the situation.

One must bear in mind that deeply held beliefs are not easily and quickly put aside; that requires the acquistion of more than a few opposing facts, and the time to assimilate them.

It is part of the human condition that, given a set of agreed upon premises, and a conclusion logically derived from such, if that conclusion runs contrary to a sufficiently deeply held belief, we will tend to reject that conclusion as being flawed in a manner that we cannot name.

Emotion trumps logic.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by weslinda

We're all late sometimes, of course, many times I simply prefer to simply not show up.

But, sometimes you don't know that you're late until you're already there!

[ducky987]

This is an interesting discussion.

I lean on the fact that Google, Yahoo and MSN are oppressive monstrocities that are very well couched in public relations.

For those of you who defend Google, I have one question for you....
"How can a search engine deliver quality and relevant results when they do not have or provide us with a workable definition of quality?"

The fact is that they do not deliver quality results, they deliver optimized results.
Optimization is a far cry from quality.

Imagine if a government treated people the way Google treats websites? That would make
Hitler and Stalin look like altar boys.

I admire Googles ability to make money. However, their complete and entire disregard for civilized communication and education is completely oppressive.

I found similar loss of rankings with my website many years ago. My choice was to reluctantly advertise and suck it up. I contend that Search is a lead generator for the advertising side of the business. Both Google and Yahoo make over 95% of their revenue from advertising.

A few months back I saw a great video presentation online about this very issue. It is very controversial. However it has helped me resolve the inherent disagreements I have always had with Google. The presentation is called, "Make Your Competition Disappear."

I contacted the marketer who created the presentation and asked if I could share the link. He said yes...so here it is....

This guy doesn't pull any punches and tells it exactly like it is.
Hope you enjoy it and benefit from it the way I have.

http://www.haraldanderson.com/Make%20Your%20Competition%20Disappear.zip

[Chuckmiser]

scarry stuff

[Orion]

no magic...

question how often do you update the content on your pages? old content moves down the line... when was the last IBL added?

don't have to be crazy with it but consistant growth / updates of a site is a must to remain on top.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by deepsand

The Poll, entitled "What would you if your site is penalized by Google & you don't know why?," is seriously flawed, in that it exludes all possible actions not listed as choices.

I fully agree. That is why I did not vote or gave a statement so far.

[datetopia]

If your position in results is bad it doesn't expressly mean your site has been penalized or is poor. It just means there are better promoted sites that show before yours. Check the websites before yours and see what type of content do they have, how are they linked from other sites (where are their backlinks, on what keywords and pages).

PS: This poll should have the option: "Other: I'll explain below!". That would be more useful.

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by deepsand

Well, Google's "service" is actually not free; while one may not make payment directly to Google for placement in the organic listings, such placement does in fact entail costs.

And, Google itself benefits from the efforts of web site owners/operators to design their sites so as to well comport with their standards, for without such, users may chose to use another SE, and thus deprive Google of ad revenues.

Therefore, it would be in Google's best interest to not ignore the needs of site owner/operators, but to voluntarily assist them to a greater extent than is presently the case.

Deep: So lets take a certain point of view to think through your thought process. What if, for some odd reason, Google decided to close it's doors tomorrow. Are you telling me that Business owners would not work to find other ways to market and promote their company?

I don't do anything for "Google". I do things that will improve the experience for those visiting my web site and guess what, it works. Google does not owe web site owners something. In the same way Yellow Pages isn't responsible for the sales generated by your free listing in their directory.

Google has told us what defines quality, and for you to say that we don't know what that quality is, is untrue. The issue at hand is that for some folks, the only reason they have gotten to the point in their business life is because of Google, but they don't want to thank them for the $10k in free sales Google gave them last month, they want to complain about the additional $20k that they felt they "could have" received if Google treated their web site better.

Google does not ignore site owners/operators. But it's simply unrealistic to expect them to setup a customer service center to help companies unwilling to take the time to educate themselves receive better listings in Google. As a company owner, it's your job to educate yourself, understand the basics of business, and use the web to achieve those goals. Stop whining that Google isn't giving you the million dollars in sales each month while you refuse to improve your companies web site with some tried and true basics that are well known across the web.

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by deepsand

One must bear in mind that deeply held beliefs are not easily and quickly put aside; that requires the acquistion of more than a few opposing facts, and the time to assimilate them.

It is part of the human condition that, given a set of agreed upon premises, and a conclusion logically derived from such, if that conclusion runs contrary to a sufficiently deeply held belief, we will tend to reject that conclusion as being flawed in a manner that we cannot name.

Emotion trumps logic.

Deeply held beliefs? Seriously? This sidetopic is over, I can't even put together an intelligent reply to such an offtopic note.

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by ducky987

For those of you who defend Google, I have one question for you....
"How can a search engine deliver quality and relevant results when they do not have or provide us with a workable definition of quality?"

Well, lets see, you honestly feel that Google hasn't outlined what Quality is? Start with the Google Webmaster Central, they've given you tools to optimize and improve your web site. They've defined what a web site should and should not have from day one.

How much more do you want them to do for you? Perhaps handle your accounting and sales so you can sit back and drink Corona's on the beach?

Stop griping folks and start working on your business. Success comes from hard work, using a basic common sense approach to your web site.

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by weslinda

And? I'm unclear on when I'm not allowed to say how I feel, however many times I chose to feel like sharing it.

When repeatedly sharing that opinion involves badgering other members because you don't *think* they should be freely sharing their opinions.

Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.

Dave

[cw1865]

Or you could turn the question around....how many legitimate businesses did google promote?

If your business is relying on organic search results to generate leads/sales, your business is inherently subject to 'risk' of ranking fluctuation.

Ultimately its very simple, DO NOT MAKE LONG TERM BUSINESS PLANS BASED ON SEARCH ENGINE ORGANIC LISTINGS. Keep your costs as variable as possible....its 'best' if sales were to drive 100% of your costs (unrealistic of course).

I also strenuously advocate diversifying your risk in this area by having more than one website. Much in the same way that investing in a broad spectrum of stocks reduces your overall risk, this strategy makes sense.

You can also look at it from this angle - when your site cracked the first page, which site did you 'push off' onto the second? Don't you think they were as dejected as you were elated to discover that fact?

Every one of us on this board who derives a living from selling online lives under the proverbial 'Sword of Damocles'

Over the past week I discovered that msn killed my site leather-jacket.com (why? who knows? they didn't send me a memo), another website has pulled a .17% conversion rate over the past ten days.

These are the trials and tribulations of e-commerce. Either assume this risk or exit the market.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by ducky987

For those of you who defend Google, I have one question for you....
"How can a search engine deliver quality and relevant results when they do not have or provide us with a workable definition of quality?"

What's wrong with this definition of quality in Google's Webmaster Guidelines? What would you change about it or add to it if you were Google?

Originally Posted by ducky987

The fact is that they do not deliver quality results, they deliver optimized results.
Optimization is a far cry from quality.

I am not unhappy with the quality of search results in Google for my personal searches; I rarely have to go beyond the first page and I almost never use another search engine. Of course, I am a more sophisticated searcher than most. Nonetheless, I find Google to be the highest quality we have available ... the state of the art when it comes to search and getting better all the time.

Originally Posted by ducky987

Imagine if a government treated people the way Google treats websites? That would make
Hitler and Stalin look like altar boys.

Oh, please. Google doesn't do anything analogous to Hitler.

MJ

[ducky987]

mjtaylor.

Thanks for pointing out googles quality guidelines.
Have you read them recently?

I quote:

"It's not safe to assume that just because a specific deceptive technique isn't included on this page, Google approves of it. Webmasters who spend their energies upholding the spirit of the basic principles will provide a much better user experience and subsequently enjoy better ranking than those who spend their time looking for loopholes they can exploit."

Is that clear to you? Anyone? What is a decptive technique? Clarification please....what are spirit of basic principles....clarification please....

The deceptive techniques of three years ago are considered sophiticated SEO practices today.

According to Googles arrogance the entire wisdom of SEO is a frickin loophole....

Everything that has ever been discovered by tests from this forum and others is a "loophole."
The assumption is that their antiquated software is good enough to understand quality, when it isn't.

The quality guidelines you cherish were written by a public relations person who wouldn't know the difference between an off page or on page factor.

Googles results are better than the competition but it is still garbage.

The current definition of quality for all search engines is largely determined by off page links.
That is a pretty crappy system.

Want to worship Google...have at it...just Google the following term "Google Bowling" and pray that your website is not on the receiving end of that savagery. Or that your competitors never find out about that.

When a website is deindexed and no reason, or communication is provided for it it is barbaric, primitive and oppressive. Is it asking to much for a search engine to provide a reason why?

Tyrants oppress with no explanation or reason. How is Google different?

Here is another example of a top notch website and a top notch SEO who discovered the wrath of Google because competitors learned how to game the system.

http://www.seofaststart.com/blog/google-proxy-hacking

Please...the footprint of oppression is always the same....FEAR.

I visit all of the popular SEO forums and the common emotion in all of them is FEAR.
People are scared of Google and scared of angering the gods.

You think that is different than a tyrant?

Is that not Googles currency and recipe for control?

If you think differently,fine, but we are clearly on different planets.

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by crankydave

When repeatedly sharing that opinion involves badgering other members because you don't *think* they should be freely sharing their opinions.

Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.

Dave

Dave, I did not repeatedly share that opinion to badger a single member. I shared my opinion to those responding with help, informing them of the posters original point. I was simply trying to keep the thread on topic, unlike some of the moderators supposedly working for the best of this forum.

Of course, I do expect that you'll remove this post as it is directly aimed at those in charge and that simply can't be done here.

[weslinda]

Oh...one more thing Dave...realize...I have no interest in being a "friend" and handling this via PM. I'm allowed to post here, and none of my posts are outside of the forums guidelines. So thank you, and lets continue on.

[weslinda]

CW: Great post. It's sad that so many people feel that they are owed so much by those companies that are successful. It's really quite sad in my opinion and shows an individuals lack of business sense as their business can be made or destroyed by a search algorithm update.

What did everyone do before there were search engines? The internet and search has allowed tens of thousands of companies to grow in ways that were never possible before the internet and search came along.

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by weslinda

Dave, I did not repeatedly share that opinion to badger a single member. I shared my opinion to those responding with help, informing them of the posters original point. I was simply trying to keep the thread on topic, unlike some of the moderators supposedly working for the best of this forum.

Of course, I do expect that you'll remove this post as it is directly aimed at those in charge and that simply can't be done here.

Not once, not twice, but 3 times you "informed" 3 different members of what you "believed" the OP was trying to do. Members are quite capable of reading the original post, and any other posts, including yours, and deciding for themselves what the OP's "intent" is. They don't need you, me or anyone else to repeatedly "inform" them of what that is. They are quite cabable of forming their own opinions and free to express them.

Furthermore, I requested that you please take anymore "questions" regarding this matter to PM so as not to disrupt the thread further. I'm requesting for a second time that you please do this. If you have a question, suggestion or concern about any of the moderators, PM an administrator.

Thank you

Dave

[Clarrie]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

To the rest: Google is not a monopoly. Period. Like the USPS, which has FedEx and UPS as competitors, Google has Yahoo and MSN, and a slew of other competitors.

Its alright for you in the good 'ol USofA, but over here in the good 'ol UK, Google has around 70% of the search market. Might not be a total monopoly but it don't leave much space for candles on the cake for Yahoo, MS, and the "slew of other competitors"

However you look at it, you've got to have a lot of eggs in that big basket one way or another.

[weslinda]

Clarrie: What if there were no search engines? What would your business do?

[ducky987]

weslinda.

There is a huge world of traffic ourside of the search engines.

Check any of the major ad networks for a start.

Online people can only travel through one of two means:

a) they can click on a link.
b) they can type a url

The majority of traffic is people clicking on a link...by a 99 to 1 margin.

The search engines can de index a site but they cannot control the
# of links that are out there pointing to your site as a potential travel mechanism.

[deepsand]

Originally Posted by weslinda

Deep: So lets take a certain point of view to think through your thought process. What if, for some odd reason, Google decided to close it's doors tomorrow. Are you telling me that Business owners would not work to find other ways to market and promote their company?

I don't do anything for "Google". I do things that will improve the experience for those visiting my web site and guess what, it works. Google does not owe web site owners something. In the same way Yellow Pages isn't responsible for the sales generated by your free listing in their directory.

Google has told us what defines quality, and for you to say that we don't know what that quality is, is untrue. The issue at hand is that for some folks, the only reason they have gotten to the point in their business life is because of Google, but they don't want to thank them for the $10k in free sales Google gave them last month, they want to complain about the additional $20k that they felt they "could have" received if Google treated their web site better.

Google does not ignore site owners/operators. But it's simply unrealistic to expect them to setup a customer service center to help companies unwilling to take the time to educate themselves receive better listings in Google. As a company owner, it's your job to educate yourself, understand the basics of business, and use the web to achieve those goals. Stop whining that Google isn't giving you the million dollars in sales each month while you refuse to improve your companies web site with some tried and true basics that are well known across the web.

Whining? Others, perhaps, but not me.

My personal gripe is that they are not sufficiently responsive; and, that when they do respond, it is all too frequently with a reply that indicates that the respondent either has not carefully read my missive or that they are clueless.

Bear in mind that those who own & operate web sites are in fact Google's suppliers. Without web sites, the use of which Google gets for free, Google has nothing to offer. So, yes, Google does "owe" us something, if they wish us to continue supplying them, with that something being better support.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by ducky987

If you think differently,fine, but we are clearly on different planets.

We are on different planets. I can accept that. And mine is not fear based.

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by ducky987

weslinda.

There is a huge world of traffic ourside of the search engines.

Check any of the major ad networks for a start.

Online people can only travel through one of two means:

a) they can click on a link.
b) they can type a url

The majority of traffic is people clicking on a link...by a 99 to 1 margin.

The search engines can de index a site but they cannot control the
# of links that are out there pointing to your site as a potential travel mechanism.

Ducky: You're right...search engines do have a choice to do what they want to, they are running a business, not a community service. Their job is to do what makes them the most money, in the same way I do the same for my businesses. I myself do not rely 100% on search engines, and if I lose any rankings in the search engines, it is typically because something on my site was done poorly. I'm certainly not going to blame them because they didn't hand hold me to the happy land of Search Engine Success.

[weslinda]

Originally Posted by deepsand

Whining? Others, perhaps, but not me.

My personal gripe is that they are not sufficiently responsive; and, that when they do respond, it is all too frequently with a reply that indicates that the respondent either has not carefully read my missive or that they are clueless.

Bear in mind that those who own & operate web sites are in fact Google's suppliers. Without web sites, the use of which Google gets for free, Google has nothing to offer. So, yes, Google does "owe" us something, if they wish us to continue supplying them, with that something being better support.

I would like to clarify, if I noted that you specifically were whining, that wasn't my point, it's that so many want so much from a company that is in the advertising business. Google gives you tools to understand what you need to improve your site, free of charge. Google provides you tools to analyze and traffic your site's visitors, again a resource to improve your site, free of charge. Google has developed applications to allow you communicate and run your business, free of charge. No one is complaining about those things. On top of that, expecting Google to communicate with every web site owner in the world, that's simply not a realistic goal from a company that is actually in the advertising business.

Why should Google help every web site owner achieve better rankings in their engine? What is Google's financial return for that level of investment? The ROI simply isn't there. They have put numerous tools in place for a web site to place within their engine. There is mountains of quality information available on the tips to succeeding in this game, and my point is that business owners need to take this responsibility on themselves and make the effort before griping that Google or Yahoo or MSN or anyone else isn't doing enough for them.

I could fully understand the original posters thoughts if he had worked through the numerous internal issues his site has before looking at and blaming an outside force. Google isn't ignoring him, Google isn't keeping him from making money, his complaint is that he isn't ranking as high as he thinks he should in Google and wants to know how to make Google stand up and recognize that his site is better than anyone else's and should rank accordingly. I looked up a few of the terms on his site, and he isn't doing poorly. He has a number of products being shown through Google Base / Product listings. I would bet that this business didn't exist before Google and the other search engines came along and I would also bet that Google brings him a fair amount of business each month. It just isn't bringing him enough in his eyes and that's where I happen to feel that people don't have the right to gripe and complain.

[ducky987]

Cool MJ. And I say this with nothing but respect....

Give me your domain name....

And let me apply google bowling to it.

Or the proxy hacking techniques that were described in the link I provided.

http://www.seofaststart.com/blog/google-proxy-hacking

In two weeks your cherished domain will be a digital ghost town.

My aim is not to destroy but to simply educate that there is a very
dark side to Google and you have to take the rose filtered glasses
off to see it.

If Google can get conned and taken by two very simple techniques that can be
perpetrated against any website why continue to worship them?

I am not in fear of the mighty "G" but I challenge you to show me that you
are in fact not scared of them either.

Will you give me your business domain name and let me have at it?

[mtheory]

I don't see a Google xml site map on your site. From Google's point of view it looks like you don't want to be listed with them.