Rule Change: Penalty for Who Links to You?

[jackit_chick]

Perhaps reciprocal links from bad sites can penalise you? For example, if an "adult website" links to me, I can't control that, it won't hurt me. But if I link back and my business is something entirely different, and this website has this big red flag from google that says "I AM BAD GRRRR" then perhaps that would actually penalise me?

I suggest just keeping up on your links and only linking to relative sites not only for the search engines but for your visitors as well. That's what it's all about right? Helping the customer. OK it's really all about making money but you can't do with bad customer service.

[wige]

Well, first we need to determine the condition for success. I think that would be getting the page de-indexed. Anything else (a drop in rankings, for example) would be inconclusive at best, since it can be the result of other factors such as an algorithm change.

As far as my comment about the sandbox, there is a theory that new or young sites receive an automatic penalty from Google. I myself don't believe this to be the case, however, the belief does exist and it may affect how any result we get from the experiment is interpreted.

I have one other concern though that may make this experiment difficult. I think that the penalty is incurred when the link source is determined to be bad that a site runs the risk of being punished for incoming links. It is harder to manipulate, and may even be easier for the engines to spot. I think there is a big difference between Google saying "Site xyz.com just got a hundred inbound links from spammy sites in this weeks crawl" and "We just penalized 500 sites, and links from these bad places accounted for 25% of xyz.com's inbound links". I think it is the latter situation that a site runs the risk of a penalty, and I sincerely doubt that the former would incur any penalty at all. The experiment as proposed, though, could only imitate the first scenario.


Dave, the scenario you mention, was that done before or after Google's efforts against improper paid links?

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by wige

Dave, the scenario you mention, was that done before or after Google's efforts against improper paid links?

Before wige. And as I said, the results were repeatable.

Here's an article that's worth a read...

The Saboteurs Of Search - Forbes.com

Dave

[Clint1]

Originally Posted by desybabe

Sorry, can't agree.
If this were true
'Google has maintained that a site will never be punished for a few bad links, based on the theory that even a concerted effort by a determined competitor could never create enough bad links to change your link profile by more than a few percent.'

What ever G "maintains" cannot be trusted. They'll never admit to anything and cannot be trusted to tell it like it really is. They will never admit that a competitor can hurt you in their index.

I posted a link earlier in this thread about the bad neighborhood link checker.

[RichAtVNS]

The interesting thing is we actually reverted from back from using dynamic ip with redirection through another port last week to fixed ip directly. And low and behold in under a day sites which used to link to us over a year ago started giving us inbound traffic and googlebot actually spidered more pages than normally (not placing them in the supplemental index I'm guessing)...

Now the reason I bring this up is... To me it seems that google is penalizing dynamic ip DNS addressed sites. BUT IT WAS MY OWN FAULT FOR USING DOING IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.


So Instead of railing against the storm, why not just duck inside and put your feet up on the coffee table and warm yourself up next to a toasty fireplace?

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Clint1

Yeah I had thought about that, thanks. But G would still "see" them, even though they wouldn't be followed, wouldn't it? I put all the sites through Bad Neighborhood - Link Exchange Tool and they all checked out Ok except for one that had a lot of links regarding "se-xual harassment in schools", "Ho-mose-xual Identity Expression Among G-ay and Le-sbian Adolescents" etc. (I put the - marks in there in case anyone has those words filtered as I do). All the links that had similar anchor text as those gave a warning, so I'm wondering if that could hurt me, or will the nofollow indemnify me from being harmed? Personally I have no problem with them at all, (I'm straight but I've had some of g*ay friends before), but I have to consider what the G discrimination will think about it.
Thanks.

My bolding.

Think of the headings. Google don't like Gay and Lesbian people. Google don't like Norwegian people, they do not like "no western christian people" (do they like both protestants and catholics the same?), they don't like .....

Google the new Pope of WWW

Originally Posted by Clint1

What ever G "maintains" cannot be trusted. They'll never admit to anything and cannot be trusted to tell it like it really is. They will never admit that a competitor can hurt you in their index.

I posted a link earlier in this thread about the bad neighborhood link checker.

Bad Neighborhood - Link Exchange Tool Google Tb PR of 4.

The NASDAQ Stock Market - NASDAQ Stock Market Quotes and Index - NASDAQ Stock Market News Bad neighbourhood on a financial related site, second link in my signature. Who has written that tool? I would rely more on my eyes.

Same with Volta Directory - Your Business Guide

[joncase]

Hello,
Am I missing something here? I just did a search in Google, Yahoo, Jayde, DMOZ, Entireweb, and Websquash for my company name, Xisle Graphix. It is listed in all those engines/directories, but my listing, and the others in that rank/category, show up on a page that is gray barred in my G Toolbar. Does that mean I am getting no PR juice from any of those?
Quizzically, Jon

[mvandemar]

Originally Posted by kgun

Who has written that tool? I would rely more on my eyes.

I am the one who wrote that tool.

Please read the description of the tool on the page itself, and click on the link to the blog to read the "Bad Neighborhood Clarification post".

Peace.

-Michael

[craigmn3]

Don't forget the one variable in this mix....the google rat out. I agree with dave in thinking google can't possibly keep track of directories with paid links or not paid links. But your competitor can.If your competitor sees you prospering with paid links and reciprocal links....they will rat you out to google. The notify Google option in their web master tools was a brilliant stroke by google. What they don't have time or man power to monitor, you do. So wear your unpaid employee badge of google proudly and know you are helping the G-Monster for free.

[rickvidallon]

Let's face it. Building links for SEO and ranking flawed approach.
Organic results are free right? Well, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Anyone who builds their business on search engine results is building there business on mud.
Long-term online business is achieved via a good mix of both traditional and online advertising.

Remember the old axiom; 'Early to bed, early to rise, work like hell and advertise!

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by rickvidallon

Let's face it. Building links for SEO and ranking flawed approach.
Organic results are free right? Well, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

Anyone who builds their business on search engine results is building there business on mud.
Long-term online business is achieved via a good mix of both traditional and online advertising.

So people who do not have the budget for the good mix, they should not try at all?

Just thinking out loud.

[Clint1]

Originally Posted by kgun

My bolding.

Think of the headings. Google don't like Gay and Lesbian people. Google don't like Norwegian people, they do not like "no western christian people" (do they like both protestants and catholics the same?), they don't like .....

Google the new Pope of WWW

So you're saying you think it's a bad idea to link to that site? Here's my post on that below:

Yeah I had thought about that (nofollow tag), thanks. But G would still "see" them, even though they wouldn't be followed, wouldn't it? I put all the sites through Bad Neighborhood - Link Exchange Tool Bad Neighborhood - Link Exchange Tool and they all checked out Ok except for one that had a lot of links regarding "se-xual harassment in schools", "Ho-mose-xual Identity Expression Among G-ay and Le-sbian Adolescents" etc. (I put the - marks in there in case anyone has those words filtered as I do). All the links that had similar anchor text as those gave a warning, so I'm wondering if that could hurt me, or will the nofollow indemnify me from being harmed? Personally I have no problem with them at all, (I'm straight but I've had some of g*ay friends before), but I have to consider what the G discrimination will think about it.

Does anyone else have any comments on that please?
Thanks.

[rickvidallon]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

So people who do not have the budget for the good mix, they should not try at all?

Just thinking out loud.

What I was trying to say is, 'Relying solely in search engines is dangerous. In John Battels book 'The Search' (all about Google) an online retailer nearly lost his house- his business... and his entire lively hood when Google changed the playing field during the Florida Udpate. His website for over-sized shoes dropped off the radar for 4 months. Same thing happened to my business in Oct 2005.

Google/ Yahoo/ MSN/ AOL Search and Ask are 'for-profit businesses'. And any business can be counted on to do what is in their 'own best interest'. Period.

When I say mix traditional and online advertising,
1) Email or direct mail your existing customers. They are your best resource for repeat business or referrals.

2) Emphasize and practice customer service. This builds loyality.

3) Write articles and post these in high-value Ezine sites.

4) Be a linking snob. When you link to a site always ask yourself the question, 'Would I find this link page useful myself?'

5) Attend/ join business groups in your area. IE: Chamber of Commerce, BMI, Breakfast meeting groups, Rotary and so on...

6) Partner with other businesses that are likely to bring you business. If you are a pastry Chef with a website... talk with your vendors (wedding planners, hotels, caterers). Let them know you are willing to their link in a high visibility area of your website if they would do the same.

What do you do outside search engines and link building?
I'd like to hear your thoughts and ideas as well.

Cheers,
Rick

[kgun]

A lot of good advice there.

[wige]

Well, with the Bad Neighborhood tool, it "pre-filters" sites that contain word stems that could be related to pornography, gambling or pharmaceuticals. This is an editorial choice on the part of the person who developed the tool. Because of the way the filter is implemented, a page about the flaminco music group the Paco de Lucia Sextet would show up as a bad neighborhood.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by wige

Well, with the Bad Neighborhood tool, it "pre-filters" sites that contain word stems that could be related to pornography, gambling or pharmaceuticals. This is an editorial choice on the part of the person who developed the tool. Because of the way the filter is implemented, a page about the flaminco music group the Paco de Lucia Sextet would show up as a bad neighborhood.

What about a page with the word assumption? A much used word in economics. I did not find that tool good enough, so I still prefer my eyes.

It raised a bad filter sign of the two sites I mentioned above. That is enough for me not to rely on the tool. What about sites that are unknown to me? I simply can not rely on that tool.

Generally there is no lack of tools with cool names on the internet.

If you have an too open mind, people will start throwing garbage at you.

Some good tools / resources.

DNS tools, reports and Hosting tests, advanced network and domain name tools.

IP Addresses of Search Engine Spiders

http://www.botslist.com/

robtex swiss army knife internet tool

A Standard for Robot Exclusion

The Spamhaus Project

Traceroute, Ping, Domain Name Server (DNS) Lookup, WHOIS, and DNS Records Lookup

MaxMind - GeoIP | IP Address Location Technology

CrawlWall

http://blockacountry.com/

[Clint1]

Originally Posted by wige

Well, with the Bad Neighborhood tool, it "pre-filters" sites that contain word stems that could be related to pornography, gambling or pharmaceuticals. This is an editorial choice on the part of the person who developed the tool. Because of the way the filter is implemented, a page about the "children's flaminco music group the Paco de Lucia Sextet" would show up as a bad neighborhood.

Yeah, I gathered that much. This is also one of the reasons why their algo's don't work very well by misinterpreting what they see. (See what I added in bold above which could be part of a similar title). And:

What about a page with the word assumption? A much used word in economics. I did not find that tool good enough, so I still prefer my eyes.
It raised a bad filter sign of the two sites I mentioned above. That is enough for me not to rely on the tool. What about sites that are unknown to me? I simply can not rely on that tool.

That is all true, but that begs the question how does google see these type pages? Which is what I'm trying to find out. We all prefer our eyes, but our eyes are irrelevant in the (no pun intended) "eyes" of google. What matters is whether or not they see a page as a bad neighborhood. That tool is a useful tool, but what's important is how its results are seen by G, does it see them the same way.

[Webnauts]

Clint I would add next to the nofollow attribute the "nsfw" attribute, which means "Not Safe For Web". I am not sure if SE understands that though, as I did not have the chance to test it yet. If you still want to use such links as you mentioned above, would not hurt to use it.

Just my two cents.

[incrediblehelp]

I thought "nsfw" meant Not Safe For Work.

[Clint1]

You mean like:

<a href="http://www.QuestionableDomain.com" rel="nofollow" "nsfw" target="_blank">link text</a>

I'm not sure where that "nfsw" would go, or does it need a "rel=" before it too?

I'm still trying to find out if the nofollow tag actually means G won't see what's at that link. The bad neighborhood link tool I believe DOES see what's after the nofollow tag, so it at least follows it and I'm concerned SE's may as well.
Thanks.

[Clint1]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

I thought "nsfw" meant Not Safe For Work.

That's what I've heard but I guess it could be considered both, "not safe" for certain things.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

I thought "nsfw" meant Not Safe For Work.

Jesus. Thanks man. If I remember I have told you about that and now I mistaken myself.
You are right man. That happens when someone haven't slept for 39 hours.

[Clint1]

I just came across this page: Google Punished My Site For Selling Links - NOT! - Jim Boykin’s Internet Marketing Blog

None of this makes any sense because it seems like G would be penalizing sites that use G AdWords and G AdSense since they are in essence "selling links".

[Clint1]

Originally Posted by mvandemar

I am the one who wrote that tool.

Please read the description of the tool on the page itself, and click on the link to the blog to read the "Bad Neighborhood Clarification post".

Peace.

-Michael

Michael do you mean this? "A Quick Clarification on the Bad Neighborhood Detector".

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by Clint1

I just came across this page: Google Punished My Site For Selling Links - NOT! - Jim Boykin’s Internet Marketing Blog

None of this makes any sense because it seems like G would be penalizing sites that use G AdWords and G AdSense since they are in essence "selling links".

Well, I must be missing your point as I don't get a connection between Boykin's post and your following comment.

And I know you can't be saying that any of this has anything to do with sites that run Adsense on them. Ads from Google do not pass PR ... and are totally unrelated to Google's issue with link selling.

(And FYI: Adwords refers only to the sponsored results on Google - the rest are Adsense.)

[Clint1]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Well, I must be missing your point as I don't get a connection between Boykin's post and your following comment.

There is no connection. I just posted that FYI.

And I know you can't be saying that any of this has anything to do with sites that run Adsense on them. Ads from Google do not pass PR ... and are totally unrelated to Google's issue with link selling.

I don't know, that was sort of a question I guess, and I guess you cleared it up. I've never used AdWords nor AdSense so I don't know about them. But if G is penalizing for paid links, then I don't understand why AdSense is immune from it, they are paid links, aren't they? They are immune from it because they are "google"?

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by Clint1

There is no connection. I just posted that FYI.


I don't know, that was sort of a question I guess, and I guess you cleared it up. I've never used AdWords nor AdSense so I don't know about them. But if G is penalizing for paid links, then I don't understand why AdSense is immune from it, they are paid links, aren't they? They are immune from it because they are "google"?

No, they are immune from it because they don't pass PR ... Google is trying to prevent people from buying links for their PR value. Sponsored results have no PR value. That's why they are 'immune.'

Cheers, MJ

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Clint1

I don't know, that was sort of a question I guess, and I guess you cleared it up. I've never used AdWords nor AdSense so I don't know about them. But if G is penalizing for paid links, then I don't understand why AdSense is immune from it, they are paid links, aren't they? They are immune from it because they are "google"?

But ad words do not get a position on the organic results and Ad Sense do not directly produce Page Rank as far as I know.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

But ad words do not get a position on the organic results and Ad Sense do not directly produce Page Rank as far as I know.

Kjell what you know so far is 100% correct.

[ireneherz]

All I know is I have a site that is chock full of content and was a PR5 for 2 years. Now, suddenly it's a 2 and I haven't changed a thing.

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by ireneherz

All I know is I have a site that is chock full of content and was a PR5 for 2 years. Now, suddenly it's a 2 and I haven't changed a thing.

Well, if it's the one in your signature, there are unrelated links that give the appearance of being paid links that are not tagged "nofollow".

Dave

[Clint1]

Originally Posted by Clint1

Michael do you mean this? "A Quick Clarification on the Bad Neighborhood Detector".

Michael?

[Clint1]

Webnauts can you please answer this? Thanks.

Originally Posted by Clint1

You mean like:

<a href="http://www.QuestionableDomain.com" rel="nofollow" "nsfw" target="_blank">link text</a>

I'm not sure where that "nfsw" would go, or does it need a "rel=" before it too?

I'm still trying to find out if the nofollow tag actually means G won't see what's at that link. The bad neighborhood link tool I believe DOES see what's after the nofollow tag, so it at least follows it and I'm concerned SE's may as well.
Thanks.

And can someone please tell me will I be safe from any G penalties if I use that method above to link to that website I mentioned earlier in this thread? Please see the post here: Rule Change: Penalty for Who Links to You?