We're all doing it wrong.... :-p

[thindenim]

That is according to http://www.re-route.co.uk/.

Just spent an amusing 15 minutes on the phone with a sales woman from this Company. This is what she told me: -

"A couple of years ago we identified the magic 4 points which google uses to rank sites. We approached google about this and they said to us...

Google - "Oh, you are right. There is nothing we can do about this for 15-20 years and we'll let you away with it, as long as you only do it for one Company for each key phrase."

Because of this magic formula we can guarantee you a top 10 position for the keyphrase "straighteners" on the main google index."

OK, I said. I am assuming what you are offering is a link building service? Not really that impressive, considering that we are already 22nd for the keyword straighteners and there are only 176,000 results. Surely a few good quality links would get us up there?

"No, we do things that you have never even heard of. Only we can guarantee you this ranking."

Well, I said, I targetted the keyphrase "hair products", which has 2,860,000 results (276,000 with the quotes) and we are 6th in the google index. I did not employ the use of any magic beans or potions for this ranking.

"No, only ourselves and 4 other companies in the world know how to manipulate the rankings"

Manipulate? So what you are doing is black hat then? Google don't allow anyone to manipulate their rankings.

"Yes, but they told us they couldn't do anything about it and as long as we don't saturate the market, it's ok"

But surely if you told them what you do, the first thing they would do is make sure Mr Cutts and his web spam team gets right on to it to fix the problem?

"No, they won't have the technology for 15/20 years."

I lost interest at this point and ended the call, although I wish I had asked her why, if she knows the magical secret herself she doesn't set up her own Company.

[tamecrow]

Jeeeeeeesus. This really is unbelievable. Kudos to you for naming and shaming this bunch of clowns. These scammers should be hung, drawn and quartered for taking advantage of someone's business and completely wasting their money.

EDIT: WHOIS Query

[mjtaylor]

Interesting ... thanks for sharing. I found it of note that they discourage clients from using Google Analytics ...

[thindenim]

The woman got quite upset with me for asking her questions! Threatened to go my competitors and sell them the magic beans instead....

[tamecrow]

Originally Posted by thindenim

The woman got quite upset with me for asking her questions! Threatened to go my competitors and sell them the magic beans instead....

Fantastic! I'd love one of these crooks to sign up all my competitors. Would save me knocking them out of the SERPs

[dartman]

Originally Posted by thindenim

The woman got quite upset with me for asking her questions! Threatened to go my competitors and sell them the magic beans instead....

Did she by chance have a price for the magic beans?

[mjtaylor]

You have to submit your keywords for a quote to get the price ....

[wige]

Hmmm, makes you wonder what their secret is though, of course. One can guess... Wonder if they provide references (that you can report to Google) from their customers?

[incrediblehelp]

Well they are scammers. One of the first thing that tells you this is how they threatened you with going to your competitors. This is a HUGE red flag.

[mjtaylor]

It certainly doesn't sound above board, but how do they stay in business if they don't get paid until they get results?

[dartman]

Originally Posted by wige

Hmmm, makes you wonder what their secret is

My guess - Prepayment with a money (not)-back guarantee.

[SemAdvance]

You should have known it was a hoax as soon as she mentioned magic beans

All proper SEOs know we use SEO Dust.

Amateurs run rampant ....

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

It certainly doesn't sound above board, but how do they stay in business if they don't get paid until they get results?

Rent the client a site and if they don't pay, pull the processing, and redirect to your merchant account ;->

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by dartman

My guess - Prepayment with a money (not)-back guarantee.

No guessing!

And no, not according to the website.

[mjtaylor]

Rent the client a site and if they don't pay, pull the processing, and redirect to your merchant account ;->[/quote]

Huh? I don't get how that would work ... did anyone else look at their site?

[tamecrow]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Huh? I don't get how that would work ... did anyone else look at their site?

Doorway sites and cloaking, MJ

[mjtaylor]

Gotcha, thanks! I am so White Naif I don't even think of those things ...

[SemAdvance]

MJ

I'm more white hat than one can imagine. One doesn't sit at the top of google for years with the same keywords by doing black hat.

I should be insulted but since I don't know the person insinuating such BS I'll be kind

Its a very simple concept that does not involve cheating.

A client wants guaranteed results.


Design Develop Host & SEO a website for the client with their products. Shopping cart and payment processing is tied into their to their merchant account through your contol.

Client pays a monthly fee for the entire package.

If client refuses to pay the monthly rental fee direct payment processing to your merchant account and enjoy life.

Document the whole thing with a contract.

Peace!

Oh and look, no blackhat needed...

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by SemAdvance

MJ

I'm more white hat than one can imagine. One doesn't sit at the top of google for years with the same keywords by doing black hat.

I should be insulted but since I don't know the person insinuating such BS I'll be kind

Its a very simple concept that does not involve cheating.

A client wants guaranteed results.


Design Develop Host & SEO a website for the client with their products. Shopping cart and payment processing is tied into their to their merchant account through your contol.

Client pays a monthly fee for the entire package.

If client refuses to pay the monthly rental fee direct payment processing to your merchant account and enjoy life.

Document the whole thing with a contract.

Peace!

Oh and look, no blackhat needed...

I am not sure how you could have thought *any* comment I made on this thread was directed at you ... I was responding to tamecrow's filling me in on how it was probably done ... with cloaking and doorway pages ... Black Hat techniques which had not occurred to me.

No aspersions were cast in any direction ... sorry if you thought otherwise. Please reread the posts and put your mind at rest.

[Steptron]

Posted last night ... no sign of my posting ... is this site vetted before posts get uploaded or are comments censored if they tell the truth

just a question

steptron

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by Steptron

Posted last night ... no sign of my posting ... is this site vetted before posts get uploaded or are comments censored if they tell the truth

just a question

steptron

Comments that have the appearance of or are likely shilled are moved for review Stephen.

Dave

[Steptron]

I love internet communities ... all over the planet we humans decide that we want to attack another’s without any factually evidence and then when they are presented they are removed quickly to avoid any positive out come for the company burned.

I wait in anticipation to see if you post the comments i made ... they are factual based and honest. Lets see the outcome.

Real shame I have spent allot of time reading this site over the last 24 hours ... i hope they do what is right as I would like to stay..

Just for the file ... I am not here for a fight, i just think the facts had not been gathered but yet the company was hung out to dry.

Sounds a little like world politics....


Steptron

[datetopia]

That SEO website seems to have pr3. Probably needs some seo services itself.

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by Steptron

I love internet communities ... all over the planet we humans decide that we want to attack another’s without any factually evidence and then when they are presented they are removed quickly to avoid any positive out come for the company burned.

I wait in anticipation to see if you post the comments i made ... they are factual based and honest. Lets see the outcome.

Real shame I have spent allot of time reading this site over the last 24 hours ... i hope they do what is right as I would like to stay..

Just for the file ... I am not here for a fight, i just think the facts had not been gathered but yet the company was hung out to dry.

Sounds a little like world politics....


Steptron

Stephen

After review, your post will remain off the board. Shilling will not be tolerated on WPW.

You are welcome to stay Stephen. If you'd like to be upfront about your relationship with the company mentioned in this thread then you are welcome to discuss and/or debate the points being made.

Thinking you're anonymous on the web is usually a mistake.

Dave

[thindenim]

As it was myself who started this discussion I would be interested to see what Steptron's comments were. I have nothing against legit SEO companies, but what does anger me is when sales people give clearly false information to try and scare clients into using them.

Any chance of a pm with the post Dave?

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by thindenim

Any chance of a pm with the post Dave?

If Stephen wishes to be upfront and honest about his relationship with the company I'd be more than happy to return his post to the thread.

Dave

[kushty]

Hi all,

I am new to the site and just reading this thread with interest. As I see it nobody was attacking SEO companies. Comments have been made on the aggressive manner in which Thindenim was approached by this company. In my opinion any reputable SEO company worth it's salt wouldn't use these forms of marketing.

[kevsta]

Originally Posted by kushty

Hi all,

I am new to the site and just reading this thread with interest. As I see it nobody was attacking SEO companies. Comments have been made on the aggressive manner in which Thindenim was approached by this company. In my opinion any reputable SEO company worth it's salt wouldn't use these forms of marketing.

this same thing used to get said about a lot of other lightly, or unregulated business markets, estate agency, recruitment ( in particluar IT, in which I have prior experience) and sales in general.

but of most of the largest most and most successful (financially) organisations have hardcore sales tactics at their frontline. the path the business seems to be taking is not good but with the size of the potential marketplace, IMO it is unfortunately inevitable.

[kevsta]

you know, looking at the site it seems like a fair service they offer, they'll rank your site before you have to pay? ..if they didnt instruct their sales staff to just tell any old porkie to get clients signed up, this might work better for them in the long run.

thindenim - you left out the best part? how much did they want for this fabulous service?

[thindenim]

I don't think we got round to pricing, but there may be details on their web site.

[Re-Route]

Hi All (Thank You Steptron, For the Call, and Tip Off)


This Message is posted by Re-Route.

I would love to add some factual based information to this public execution. I guess the only way to deal with this is running through the comments, helping to really separate the fact from fiction.

Ok – Please Accept my apology for grammar or typos errors – Lots to say little time to do it in.

1st Thindenim – I can only apologise if this is the sales pitch that presented itself over the phone, however I would like to state that the Sales person in question was 3 days into her new role and I assume nervously presented the information incorrectly. As a successful sales company we run strict disciplinary procedures to any one caught lying to a potential client … however after reading your comments, I think the girl in question just presented incorrectly due to nerves or misinterpretation was to blame.

·“A couple of years ago we identified the magic 4 points which Google uses to rank sites. We approached Google about this and they said to us...”

5 Years ago the directors that formed our group of companies, left the employment of a much larger development and Internet based strategist company in order to work helping clients with Web Design and SEO. Our proven formula in SEO (i.e. best way we found) consists of 4 points, these points have been confirmed by Google as correct methods, consisting of Market analyzation, Content Update, Code Update and Finally an Exposure Program.

·Google - "Oh, you are right. There is nothing we can do about this for 15-20 years and we'll let you away with it, as long as you only do it for one Company for each key phrase."

This section brought a smile to our faces trying to work out what was said or infact how it was interpreted. As every SEO company in the world understands, our job’s are made possible due to Google and other search engines relying upon Site Content, Site Code and Site Importance (I am sure there are a few other’s but this will be enough for the explanation). Documented throughout the world one such way for this to end would be for an Artificial Inelegant search engine that could understand the true content of the written language including dialect, slang and languages. Universities studying such technologies state that no such super engines (for wont of a better word) will be ready or commercially marketed for at least 15 years. The end statement I am guessing was the sales persons attempt or wrong interpretation. As a company we currently only take on 1 business for a set Keyword program and we don’t deal with other companies for the same keywords.

·Because of this magic formula we can guarantee you a top 10 position for the keyphrase "straighteners" on the main google index.

As a company we have a great success rate for clients and yes we agree that this is because of our winning formula - that doesn’t mean we do anything magical or mystical – it just simply means the way we breakdown our clients market, update the content and wash the code finished with gaining our clients exposure has proven to bring a very large success rate.

Now the Guarantee – Read the web site and I think you will see, our company makes no such promises….. However what we do is “guarantee” you don’t pay a penny until your URL is placed on the first page for your chosen campaign. This doesn’t mean we guarantee it will happen, but we are willing to risk our own money.

·OK, I said. I am assuming what you are offering is a link building service? Not really that impressive, considering that we are already 22nd for the keyword strengtheners and there are only 176,000 results. Surely a few good quality links would get us up there?

"No, we do things that you have never even heard of. Only we can guarantee you this ranking."

I have nothing in defence of this and can only assume the sales girl got a little lost in your question, (we all know what it can be like to work for a new company) alternatively, in-between you trying to probe and listen to her pitch your amazing ability to write word for word in real time went through a small glitch, but for the life of me I am sure this was never the case.

·Well, I said, I targeted the key phrase "hair products", which has 2,860,000 results (276,000 with the quotes) and we are 6th in the Google index. I did not employ the use of any magic beans or potions for this ranking.

"No, only ourselves and 4 other companies in the world know how to manipulate the rankings"

Mmmm – I guess you have me on this one as well … I imagine that the creative mind has helped stretch these statements … but possibly it could be the glitch returning again. Not sure?

·Manipulate? So what you are doing is black hat then? Google don't allow anyone to manipulate their rankings.

Although I wouldn’t use the word Manipulate or Manipulation whilst explaining SEO, the sales girl in question was right in her choice of words –

The definition of Manipulate is – control (others or oneself) or influence skilfully, usually to one’s advantage.

I think we can all agree when we change Code or Content on site we are doing this in order to manipulate our chances of success. I will let you work out if you statement of black hat is true.

·"Yes, but they told us they couldn't do anything about it and as long as we don't saturate the market, it's ok"

But surely if you told them what you do, the first thing they would do is make sure Mr Cutts and his web spam team gets right on to it to fix the problem?

"No, they won't have the technology for 15/20 years."

I think I have covered these points above.

Thindenim please accept this as a written apology, our company would never mislead you. I will assume that this conversation and post was the result of our company’s failure to train new sales people. We have now addressed the training and you will be glad to know that our recruitment and training process has been extended. We have taken the option to continue the employment of the girl in question, and have extended her sales training. Also we have to take into account the possibility you didn’t manage to transfer the conversation to this blog perfectly.

[Re-Route]

Our Other Response’s

tamecrow jeeeeeeesus. This really is unbelievable. Kudos to you for naming and shaming this bunch of clowns. These scammers should be hung, drawn and quartered for taking advantage of someone's business and completely wasting their money.

Response Thank you for your comments – We agree companies that take a clients money with no clear guidance of when or if the work will be successful should be hung, drawn and quartered.

That’s why we don’t take any money until and if we successfully place a clients URL. So I am pleased we won’t suffer that horrible torture.

mjtaylor Interesting ... thanks for sharing. I found it of note that they discourage clients from using Google Analytics ...

Response As a very successful web design company 99% of our clients use Google Analytics, we would always suggest this option .. not sure where this came from. However we all understand the first place to find stats should be the server that hosts your site. Possibly not as detailed in the layout however I assume very accurate.

thindenim The woman got quite upset with me for asking her questions! Threatened to go my competitors and sell them the magic beans instead....

Response Upset or confused after all you introduced magic beans to the conversation. Maybe she thought you had started to run her around and took advantage of her not knowing as much as yourself. As stated above all sales people are now trained for longer periods and also have a consultant appointed to them for any further questions – I have apologised but I am happy to say it again …. Sorry if the person seemed to mislead you – this was never her intention.

Dartman Did she by chance have a price for the magic beans?

Response Each company, URL and Market is priced individually and the quotation is only ever prepared by the technical team and takes 24hours – however we are pleased to say you won’t pay a penny until and if we get you to page 1.

mjtaylor You have to submit your keywords for a quote to get the price ....

Response This is right to an extent – we need to find your companies strongest market in connection to search volumes. For example if the keyword “Safes” was showing the largest search volume, this would make your primary keyword – and only until this keyword sits proud on page 1 would you start to pay.

However in addition to this we will select between 5-10 other keywords based around your sites content and market place. These are also included in the price; however you only pay once the primary key gets placed.

And for peace of mind if the primary keyword should fall of page 1 then the payments stop.

Ultimately you chose the Primary keyword although we are there to help you if needed.

wige Hmmm, makes you wonder what their secret is though, of course. One can guess... Wonder if they provide references (that you can report to Google) from their customers?

Response For serious clients that want more information, then YES we do give out References, However we always ask the company if they are happy that there details are used – this is in every case. However we do make sure the potential client are serious and understands the costs involved.

incrediblehelp Well they are scammers. One of the first thing that tells you this is how they threatened you with going to your competitors. This is a HUGE red flag.

Response As a company we will only work with one client for a chosen primary keyword and Yes correctly if you didn’t want to use our services we are likely to sell them into another business. However we do not and have never placed any company under pressure. I think this statement arises from either the sales girls newness or indeed misinterpretation. I will leave it to the community to work out.

mjtaylor It certainly doesn't sound above board, but how do they stay in business if they don't get paid until they get results?

Response We have a fortunate position that our group is very secure financially and Re-Route looks to win long term success by minimising any client’s financial risks. We have a great track record for account retention and we can happily state that every client using our service is delighted. We take the risk and yes sometimes we loose out financially as we cant or don’t get placement, however we win more contracts due to our commitment to reduce the financial worry.

dartman My guess - Prepayment with a money (not)-back guarantee.

Response Just to make it very clear we don’t take any money for this service until placement is secure. If we don’t place or can’t place, the client walks away obligation and financially free – Added to this if we have not placed within 3 months the client has the right to cancel our services again without obligation or being charged.

Now this doesn’t mean we get results this quick every time, however if the client feels that we have not worked or they have not seen any changes they can cancel without worry.

SemAdvance You should have known it was a hoax as soon as she mentioned magic beans
all proper SEOs know we use SEO Dust.
Amateurs run rampant....

Response Magic beans – I think you will find this is the original posters creative interpretation – And I am so pleased you can discuss your drug habit in public – they say the first step to independency of drugs is the acknowledgment you have a problem … Just make sure the Dust is from a know source until you wean off it.

SemAdvance Rent the client a site and if they don't pay, pull the processing, and redirect to your merchant account ;->

Response Now this has to be the most fantastic business plan – We use our money to place YOUR URL on page 1, you don’t pay because you’re not happy and then we get Nominet to transfer your domain. – Great plan …. 10 points for creativity though

mjtaylor No guessing! and no, not according to the website.

Response Thank You, for looking at the facts, and not using guess work to build a case of execution. I understand you feel something not right but thank you for being honest and stopping people from launching silly comments. Hopefully once our new more detailed web site re-launches within the next 2 weeks you will see we just have a simple business ethos, to help build relationships with clients whilst removing the financial risk.

tamecrow Doorway sites and cloaking, MJ

Responses Sorry to disappoint we don’t use such techniques; we operate on the basis of hard work and extremely strong relationships with others around the world. It is the clients URL that wins placement not a forwarding URL. I think the worry we don’t ask for money is generating cause for concern.

mjtaylor Gotcha, thanks! I am so White Naif I don't even think of those things ...

Response I don’t think you are … I guess your just honest and trying to find the facts behind what we are doing wrong.

I guess we are at fault for 2 things – the first was the training our sales team went through before getting on the phones – We have now fixed this. Secondly our web site does not go into enough detail and we are in the process of launching a site that covers every angle of our service.

[Re-Route]

Steptron Posted last night ... no sign of my posting ... is this site vetted before posts get uploaded or are comments censored if they tell the truth - just a question – steptron

Response Thank Your Stephen for your call, we wouldn’t have found the posting.

datetopia That SEO website seems to have pr3. Probably needs some seo services itself.

Response Correct page 3 ranking, why when we are so brilliant. Well truth is the SEO market place is possibly the toughest to keep on page 1 for and involves huge amounts of time and effort to stay there. We prefer to use our resources on our client’s sites helping us to stay in business. Unlike SEO other markets don’t need superman or 24-7 flat out commitment to stay stable – yes they need working on continually but nothing in the way of the market place we are all in.

crankydave Stephen

After review, your post will remain off the board. Shilling will not be tolerated on WPW.

You are welcome to stay Stephen. If you'd like to be upfront about your relationship with the company mentioned in this thread then you are welcome to discuss and/or debate the points being made.

Thinking you're anonymous on the web is usually a mistake.

Dave

Response Stephen’s company has provided our company the IT server and hosting for many projects and also handles most of our SMTP and Domain issues …. He contacted me worrying that truth might reside in this forum as he wouldn’t wish to be associated professionally. After he spent 2 days trying to dig information he made his postings helping to stop this public myth based execution.

kevsta this same thing used to get said about a lot of other lightly, or unregulated business markets, estate agency, recruitment ( in particluar IT, in which I have prior experience) and sales in general.

but of most of the largest most and most successful (financially) organisations have hardcore sales tactics at their frontline. the path the business seems to be taking is not good but with the size of the potential marketplace, IMO it is unfortunately inevitable.

Response This is very true and our methods of business to business sales have been copied from 1000’s of other large successful corporate companies. Our Telesales team find companies that are interested in our services and then our consultants go through the contract with the clients to ensure every angle is understood.

kevsta you know, looking at the site it seems like a fair service they offer, they'll rank your site before you have to pay? ..if they didnt instruct their sales staff to just tell any old porkie to get clients signed up, this might work better for them in the long run.

thindenim - you left out the best part? how much did they want for this fabulous service?

Response Thank you Kevsta - please note – We do not condone sales through miss direction and would dismiss any member of staff that was found to do this.


Thank You all for reading

<signature link in body of post removed CD>

[crankydave]

This is simply pathetic.

You know what, I've decided to let you bury yourself. I'll let the membership question/debate the points being offered.

I'll start with a single point...

Stephen (Steptron) owns the domain (re-route.co.uk).

I assure you, I have plenty more Stephen, Septron, Re-Route, or whatever you choose to call yourself. I'll start with this one.

Any company that cannot stand up front and center for who they are, what they do, and why they do it, is one to be most definitely avoided IMO.

You wish to continue, please do.

Dave

[thindenim]

> 5 Years ago the directors that formed our group of companies, left the employment of a much larger development and Internet based strategist company in order to work helping clients with Web Design and SEO. Our proven formula in SEO (i.e. best way we found) consists of 4 points, these points have been confirmed by Google as correct methods, consisting of Market analyzation, Content Update, Code Update and Finally an Exposure Program.

This is not what the sales person said to me. I was told that re-route was one of only 4 companies in the world (I can't remember the exact figure, but it was four or 5) that had "cracked" google's codes, i.e. the 4 points you mention above. You apparently contacted google about this and they said: -

"There is nothing we can do about this (for 15 years) and we will allow you to continue on the proviso that you only work with one company in each market".

I have nothing against SEO companies at all and I'm sure re-route does a good job for their clients. What I do have a *big* problem with is using a sales pitch which is basically mumbo jumbo and fear tactics (i.e. this will only work for one company, we'll go to your competitors) to bring in your clients.

I admit that you have been a little unfortunate. Your company is not the only one that employs these sales tactics and I get phone calls all the time from other SEO companies with similar pitches. But that does not justify the tactic and if you say that your cold calling pitch has changed then I hope this is the case.

[Re-Route]

Thindenim - thank you for your comments - I have issued warnings through our sales teams and consultancy teams. Our company would never and will not condone sales people that force contracts through lies.

Our sales training process will now hopefully rule out any misinterpretaion made by the sales people.

Thanks Re-Route