The Ongoing PageRank Massacre Hits Big Players

[Webnauts]

Search industry watchdogs have noticed an ongoing radical slashing of many (former) darlings’ PR values.

Go on reading: The Ongoing PageRank Massacre Hits Big Players ::

[cass-hacks]

One possibility is that the internal PageRank scale changed, which had to happen and will continue to have to happen one way or another as more and more pages are added to teh interweb.

Also, if the internal to toolbar PageRank formula is non-linear and possibly something similar to logarithmic, pages with higher toolbar PageRank would automatically appear to be harder hit.

Lastly, it needn't appear to happen to every single site in the high PageRank bracket because during the period between April and when those site's toolbar PageRank dropped, some of the high PageRank sites could have received enough new inbound links to put them off the charts, which could also explain why and what was done in the first place.

All guesswork of course but a shifting of the internal to toolbar PageRank scale has to happen at some point anyway or all the pages would be fighting for fewer and fewer PageRank resources or, all bunch up making PageRank less worthwhile as a signal, and that point may be now.

[nipplecharms1]

I think it is even more sinister...

At the beginning of every financial quarter, Gozizzle and Yohizzle change their algorithms.

Why you ask? Riddle me this Batman! Could it be….

A.) To keep everyone honest?
B.) To better give YOU, the end user, a better experience?
C.) To make sure that the most pertinent pages rank the best?
D.) Allow SEO workers (no pun intended Webnauts) to make a living?

OR could it be…

E.) To make money for the Gozizzle investors and Wall Street so that all us little smucks, when the algorithms do change, will then have to run to Adwords/Sense and pay and pay to get back on the first page and meet our internal estimates for our little businesses. Hell, now the big boys will have to go running too!

It is all a scam. The last great chance was DMOZ and they are now either too lazy or too corrupt (you can buy placement now if you know where to look) to be a real contender. And now that Micosoizzle just bought into FaceBook (for $240Million US) for the advertising end of it… well that site will now become just one more whore platform.

WOW, what do I really think?

Your comments are also welcome!

Michael

[dartman]

IBL emphasis is out of control in the commercial sector.
Getting links (paid or not) is nothing more then a game in an effort to boost PR.
What is the business wisdom of linking to a competitors site solely for the
purpose of getting a link back.
Blogs - great for experts in their field, otherwise just a disguised link farm.
How many create a blog simply to link to their own pages or agenda.

[incrediblehelp]

Like I posted here, who really cares. I would love to hear which of all these websites that had their TBPR lowered saw a decrease in traffic. I have heard lots of them have actually seen an increase in traffic, lol.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by dartman

Blogs - great for experts in their field, otherwise just a disguised link farm.
How many create a blog simply to link to their own pages or agenda.

I do.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Like I posted here, who really cares. I would love to hear which of all these websites that had their TBPR lowered saw a decrease in traffic. I have heard lots of them have actually seen an increase in traffic, lol.

I read your post in your blog and the only thing I thought was:

If I do not care about something, I do not waste my thoughts or words for it.

Think about what I said twice. When people experience a loss or a failure, then they just come up with some bloody excuses. So if the ones who say they do not care about their PR loss, cannot be honest.

Such cheap attitude is far beyond my level.

Just my two cents.

[incrediblehelp]

Cheap attitude? I take the time to help many here, so I don't want to hear that. Wasting time on "unimportant" number like TBPR is ludicrous. Anyone that calls themselves and SEO should be ashamed of themselves if they say TBPR doesn't make a difference in one breath and then cry foul now since theirs went down.

TBPR or even PR for that matter is NOT YOURS. So losing it shouldn't be a considered a loss for yourself or your websites.

[incrediblehelp]

Another good thread on the subject in case you missed it John:

Search Engine Guide Publisher Responds to PageRank Drop - Search Engine Guide Blog

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Cheap attitude? I take the time to help many here, so I don't want to hear that. Wasting time on "unimportant" number like TBPR is ludicrous. Anyone that calls themselves and SEO should be ashamed of themselves if they say TBPR doesn't make a difference in one breath and then cry foul now since theirs went down.

TBPR or even PR for that matter is NOT YOURS. So losing it shouldn't be a considered a loss for yourself or your websites.

Hey man what is up with you? First I was not talking about you. You should already know that. I am talking about the statements of some big players. People don't know here though that we are the big players man.

Jesus. I think I did not express myself the way I met it. If that is the case, my apologies man.

[Webnauts]

Do you all know what I never understood about PageRank?

Google says:

Originally Posted by Google

The heart of our software is PageRank™.

Source: Google Technology

So how can PageRank be important.

Just wondering and pondering!

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Another good thread on the subject in case you missed it John:

Search Engine Guide Publisher Responds to PageRank Drop - Search Engine Guide Blog

My question Jaan is: Why do people who were smacked in the face want to stop selling links, if PageRank is not important. Isn't the smack in the face the PageRank reduction issue? Or were they otherwise penalized and I missed the track?

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by nipplecharms1

I think it is even more sinister...

At the beginning of every financial quarter, Gozizzle and Yohizzle change their algorithms.

<snip>
B.) To better give YOU, the end user, a better experience?

Yes, absolutely. Google simply wants to provide better and better results and indeed, they want to do that because that's how they can continue to make money. Nothing sinister about it. Just good business.

Originally Posted by dartman

IBL emphasis is out of control in the commercial sector.
Getting links (paid or not) is nothing more then a game in an effort to boost PR.

And traffic.

Originally Posted by dartman

What is the business wisdom of linking to a competitors site solely for the
purpose of getting a link back.

Google loves links out ... especially to authority sites and I would love to see some discussion about how non-reciprocal linking out from home pages can boost ranking in SERPs.

Originally Posted by dartman

How many create a blog simply to link to their own pages or agenda.

I would if I didn't spend all my free time here.

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Do you all know what I never understood about PageRank?

Google says:


Source: Google Technology

So how can PageRank be important.

Just wondering and pondering!

Webnauts: Didn't you mean: How can page rank not be important?

Cheers, MJ

[crankydave]

I've been following this with a casual interest.

Just a passing thought...

If indeed the original premise set forth still holds true...

The sum of all page ranks = 1

And the TBPR is repesented on a scale that is equal for all sites...

Then this is by no means over.

Dave

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Webnauts: Didn't you mean: How can page rank not be important?

Cheers, MJ

Ups? Misspelled MJ. Thanks for correcting me.

"How can page rank not be important?"

[coolguy27]

Google now is strictly implementing their New Linking Scheme...

Goodbye to those sites interlinking(cross-linking)...

[Webnauts]

What do you think about this? Official: Selling Paid Links Can Hurt Your PageRank Or Rankings On Google

Why should we care if the PageRank, (not ranking on Google) will be hurt?

Why don't they just say: Official: Selling Links Can Hurt Your Rankings On Google?

Again just wondering and pondering...

[incrediblehelp]

Sorry John I understand now. I really see nothing changing here except for the greenbar, which makes this a funny Halloween.

[Webnauts]

Probably because I am not a big player, I haven't been spanked!

Some minutes ago the update took place from my sites.

My site seoworkers.com went from PR 5 to 6!

My forums went from PR 4 to 5!

My blog algojunkie.com went form PR 3 to PR4!

My directory seosearchbot.com went from PR (GREY) to PR 4!

I know many would say that is the big deal. Well if it is or not, I am happy about it. I see that I did a very good and ethical work after all.

[dartman]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

And traffic.

I agree links can increase traffic if the link is not on some obscure blog or directory
page solely to try to generate some PR. It's my opinion that the multitudes
seek links for purposes other then increasing inbound traffic.

[Tubby]

My PR is down on several main pages - but traffic up on all the minor pages.

I am thinking it is just a visual (toolbar) difference - just so the money spenders do not know where to go to buy the best links. (less obvious - and no "get a big PR link here" coaxing)

I am not a big player either - I am not even sure I know what I am doing most of the time.

[vinay11111]

well intresting discuccion goin on. As quoted by someone why people are wondering abt PR if they think its not imp but I'd say it feels good to saw green color than Grey one

and one thing I pnserved inthe sites that lost Pr valus are :

Wrong (misleading) anchor used for links
h1 , h2 tags used in worng way or not used
also navigation of sites isnt good

All I'd say this update is not meant fro Paid links but those sit get caught in Pr update

[Tubby]

I expect we will all know what it is all about in 12 months time. .
Maybe google will be closer to knowing what they are doing in 12 months time.

I had to go to my sons computer to find my page rank after I received two emails. There is a lot of panic out there in the webmaster world.

Yep my TBR rank is down. I never really understood TBR anyway. . except when the TBR gets past PR4 people email me asking for links.

I think my pages are just as valuable to me and my users now as they were last week. It all quite amusing. we really do need more things to worry about. .

[Webnauts]

"Webmasters don't take kindly when the engine that by some estimates handles 60 percent of the world's web searches suddenly deems their sites' content less relevant." Websites steamed after their Google PageRanks fall | The Register

Here are some more details: Google Changing the PageRank Algorithm?

"A Google spokesperson told vnunet.com that "our opinion of the forward links for a site" can play a role in a site's pagerank. But he also stressed that other factors also play a part in the recent changes." Google coy on Pagerank smackdown - vnunet.com

[cass-hacks]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

"... suddenly deems their sites' content less relevant."

Toolbar PageRank is now a measure of relevancy too?

What next, PageRank becoming the answer to world peace and ending hunger and poverty?

If people getting all upset over some green pixels on a page weren't so funny, it would be, well, I don't think it can get anymore hilarious than it already is!

Doesn't anyone care about the traffic they get from search engines or is the only thing that is important anymore are some pixels on a page?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by vinay11111

well intresting discuccion goin on. As quoted by someone why people are wondering abt PR if they think its not imp but I'd say it feels good to saw green color than Grey one

and one thing I pnserved inthe sites that lost Pr valus are :

Wrong (misleading) anchor used for links
h1 , h2 tags used in worng way or not used
also navigation of sites isnt good

All I'd say this update is not meant fro Paid links but those sit get caught in Pr update

Cool observation! You confirm some of mine. But you did not mention that PR has more weight than before for rankings. In other words it became a very elegant ranking factor.

[shyspinner]

hhhhmmmm....this sure is interesting.

My home page went up one number.

I just recently added a couple of affiliate links to my blog and one or two product pages and that's it, no other ads.
The main blog page went up one number, while the product pages stayed the same.

I have some links out to authority sites, those pages each gained a rank of up two numbers, while the page where I have reciprocals went up one number.

Strangely, a few of my oldest article pages that have never had any rank, still have none.
A couple of article pages that are newer have a toolbar rank.

All major navigational pages stayed about the same.

Taking it all with a pinch of salt, I suspect it isnt over yet.

Strangest "toolbar pr" update I've seen so far, I thought in the past the fluctuations were more uniform than what I am seeing.

[scanmonkey]

I took a look at Official: Selling Paid Links Can Hurt Your PageRank Or Rankings On Google and Danny Sullivan informs us that Google has stressed "that that the current set of PageRank decreases is not assigned completely automatically; the majority of these decreases happened after a human review. That should help prevent false matches from happening so easily."

Any value that the toolbar had to judge the importance of a site has been diminished the last few years and now more so.

If your rankings are fine and you are not selling links there's not much to concern yourself about with pagerank anyway. Search ranking and pagerank are two different things and it appears that this update is designed to confuse the uninformed.

[Webnauts]

"Pagerank is the formula Google uses to determine the order in which search results appear. It is based mainly on the number of sites that link to a URL, but also takes other factors into consideration. A link from a highly ranked website is believed to carry more weight than one from a low ranking one." Google coy on Pagerank smackdown - vnunet.com

If they give PageRank manually or automatically, that is not important.

Question 1: Is PageRank as a ranking factor stronger or not?
Question 2: What other factors does it take into consideration?

[cass-hacks]

Originally Posted by scanmonkey

... it appears that this update is designed to confuse the uninformed.

I think it was designed to confuse all, not just the uninformed!

Now that there is a non-algorithmic element added to PageRank, it can mean whatever Google wants it to mean for whomever Google wants.

What most people lose site of is the fact that rankings in the SERPs, which SHOULD be the only thing that matters, hasn't changed.

If one's site has been maintaining or improving in the SERPs and Google traffic since the April update then any change in PageRank means next to nothing except maybe one won't be going into the link selling business quite so soon.

[cass-hacks]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

"Pagerank is the formula Google uses to determine the order in which search results appear. It is based mainly on the number of sites that link to a URL, but also takes other factors into consideration. A link from a highly ranked website is believed to carry more weight than one from a low ranking one." Google coy on Pagerank smackdown - vnunet.com

Since when has PageRank become THE formula used to determine SERPs results?

I wouldn't read too much into a poorly written or researched article. For all we know, "other factors" could just as easily be the PageRank of the linked from page and the relevance of the link. Those haven't changed.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by cass-hacks

Since when has PageRank become THE formula used to determine SERPs results?

I wouldn't read too much into a poorly written or researched article. For all we know, "other factors" could just as easily be the PageRank of the linked from page and the relevance of the link. Those haven't changed.

Poorly written or research article?

Originally Posted by Google

PageRank Explained
PageRank relies on the uniquely democratic nature of the web by using its vast link structure as an indicator of an individual page's value. In essence, Google interprets a link from page A to page B as a vote, by page A, for page B. But, Google looks at considerably more than the sheer volume of votes, or links a page receives; for example, it also analyzes the page that casts the vote. Votes cast by pages that are themselves "important" weight more heavily and help to make other pages "important." Using these and other factors, Google provides its views on pages' relative importance.
Of course, important pages mean nothing to you if they don't match your query. So, Google combines PageRank with sophisticated text-matching techniques to find pages that are both important and relevant to your search. Google goes far beyond the number of times a term appears on a page and examines dozens of aspects of the page's content (and the content of the pages linking to it) to determine if it's a good match for your query.

Source: Google Technology

What should I assume reading this?

Also some more info: Google Corporate Information: Technology

[cass-hacks]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Poorly written or research article?

Yes, poorly written at the very least.

The sentence structure used implies a number of different connections which are ambiguous and misleading, which is probably what lead you to ask, "What other factors does it take into consideration?"

Which it are you referring to? Your question is in fact as ambiguous as the original article.

First, they state that PageRank is THE deciding factor for SERPs rankings. Then, they try to explain what PageRank is. Then, they say that other factors are also used. Other factors used for what? Other factors for determining SERPs rankings or other factors for determining PageRank?

Which applies to what? Are other factors used in the ranking of the SERPs or do the other factors apply to how PageRank is determined?

If the other factors applies to SERPs rankings and PageRank is not THE one and only deciding factor, that is one thing but if other factors applies to PageRank determination and they do consider PageRank THE deciding factor, then there is a problem.

Thanks for your links but would you care to comment on "PageRank, which is but one of over 200 signals that can affect how your site is crawled, indexed and ranked." which comes from FAQs for Crawling, Indexing, and Ranking - Google Webmaster Help | Google Groups

Did that say, "PageRank is THE signal that can affect how your site is crawled, indexed and ranked"?

That would be a, "no", right?

[mjtaylor]

So, recent statements, attributed to a nameless Google spokesperson, support my notion that PageRank is not calculated as it was in the original patent.

A Google spokesperson told vnunet.com that "our opinion of the forward links for a site" can play a role in a site's pagerank. But he also stressed that other factors also play a part in the recent changes.

Of course, I saw that printed somewhere else *first* so I don't think the Googler told vnunet directly, but that's just me being picky about ethical reporting.

That quote is all over the Internet now, but when I first saw it here 10-26-2007, 06:00 PM EST: Google algorithm tweak spooks WWW - web - Technology - theage.com.au, it wasn't indexed by Google in any other source.

And I have yet to see a name attributed to the quote ...

FWIW, MJ

[crankydave]

Intersting link MJ.

Here's a quote from there with something I consider important bolded...

A Google spokesman said in a statement: "Values in the Google Toolbar can fluctuate for a number of normal reasons, including changes in how we crawl or index the web, or changes in the link structure of the web itself."

The PageRank could be updated by Google to "to incorporate not only our view on the backlinks to a page or site, but also to incorporate our opinion of the forward links for a site".

I don't think it was ever really questioned that Google has the ability to do this. They've said so and it is indicated in the original patents.

They way I read this quote from the link you posted is very different from the quote you posted.

Dave

[mjtaylor]

So, linking to authority sites can improve PageRank.

That's how I read it.

Though that would not fit into the original patent formula.

MJ

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

So, linking to authority sites can improve PageRank.

That's how I read it.

Though that would not fit into the original patent formula.

MJ

Wait just a minute...

You've got one attributed quote that states forward links CAN play a role, and HAVE incorporated other things into the PR calculation.

You have another attributed quote, presumably from the same source, that says they COULD.

You have already decided that they absolutely have without knowing the source and which of the 2 are accurate?

ETA... Additionally, linking out to "bad neighborhoods" can cause PR problems. You don't think it's possible that this is exactly what was being referred to? Or a page, ie link page, that has nothing on it but OBL's for reciprocal links is exactly what was being referred to?

Dave

[cass-hacks]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

So, linking to authority sites can improve PageRank.

That's how I read it.

That would seem to be one way one could take that quote.

On the other hand, forward links to some sites seem to have had a significant impact in the past, i.e. links to "bad neighborhoods" although in those cases the impact seemed to be more of a Deep Impact, like the movie.

One thing that I think is interesting is that in the original patent, they not only talk about the algorithm itself but something along the lines of what it is supposed to model, i.e. the likelihood of someone clicking on a given link and going to a given site, (paraphrased extensively).

Looking at it that way, a given site may have numerous links from spam sites but what is the likelihood that someone will actually arrive at that site from one of the spam sites?

On the other hand, what is the likelihood of one clicking on a relevant link with relevant anchor text in quality content?

Two seemingly opposite cases, one where a given netizen is less likely to end up on a given page than the number of existing links might indicate as well as another being more likely in the opposite situation.

We do know that Google does and has looked at forward links when it comes to "bad neighborhood" and now possibly paid forward links, so would it be too much of a stretch to think they might try to cover the other end of the spectrum also?

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Wait just a minute...

You've got one attributed quote that states forward links CAN play a role, and HAVE incorporated other things into the PR calculation.

You have another attributed quote, presumably from the same source, that says they COULD.

You have already decided that they absolutely have without knowing the source and which of the 2 are accurate?

ETA... Additionally, linking out to "bad neighborhoods" can cause PR problems. You don't think it's possible that this is exactly what was being referred to? Or a page, ie link page, that has nothing on it but OBL's for reciprocal links is exactly what was being referred to?

Dave

Actually, I had my beliefs before I read anything to support it. And I agree, we are not reading these quotes the same way, as I don't see any contradiction ... nor do I see where I have stated anything categorially as true or absolute. I tend to state most things on SEO matters as beliefs as there is precious little we actually know.

What I said was that's how I *read* it ... meaning, that's how I interpret what I've read. I didn't mean to say anything is or isn't true.

On bad neighborhoods: I do know that links to bad neighborhoods can get your site deindexed - I had one de-indexed a few years ago and I knew we weren't doing anything else "wrong" no hidden text or other spamming ... so I went through the outbound links with a fine toothed comb, discovered a couple of very bad apples, removed them, applied for reinclusion and was immediately reindexed and back at the top of the SERPs ... nothing else was changed.

But I never considered a link to a bad neighborhood as something that could lower the PR of the page or site linking out to the bad neighborhood.

Perhaps I misunderstood the Patent formula ... I am not a mathlete, but I understood the PR on Page A s being calculated on PR flowing from pages that link to page A; I did not understand the original formula took into account the PR or other Google 'opinion' of the pages Page A links to.

So, did I misunderstand the original patent?

MJ

[Webnauts]

I am preaching since I am involved in SEO that Google always reveal what they already developed and implemented, and what not yet. And all that in their webmaster guidelines!

If we are not talking about the green bar, but about PageRank values which we cannot see and have up them up-to-date, I would like to add the following:

1. Page Rank is the heart software or Google.
2. The original PageRank algorithm was scalable. Do you think that Google have not expanded the algorithm? So the original patent which in published on the web is not the one google has now.
3. If Google believes that your site violates their guidelines, you site can lose its PageRank. Why do they tell us that if PageRank is not important for us? What else do we care about than ranking well and having traffic. Webmaster Help Center - Why does my site have a PageRank of zero?

Just wondering and pondering...

P.S. If you have sec: Webmaster Help Center - What are crawl stats?

I think Google is more clear than ever. Read between the lines. Just a tip.

[weslinda]

Google themselves says PR is the heart of their search technology. How can anyone say PR is dead?

It simply isn't true. It is obviously not the only piece to the puzzle but it's a large piece of the puzzle for sure.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by weslinda

Google themselves says PR is the heart of their search technology. How can anyone say PR is dead?

It simply isn't true. It is obviously not the only piece to the puzzle but it's a large piece of the puzzle for sure.

Thanks Wes! Finally there is someone here who agrees with me after all these years of wondering and pondering.

Great post brother!

[scanmonkey]

PageRank, which is but one of over 200 signals that can affect how your site is crawled, indexed and ranked.

That says a mouthful.

To most business owners how their site is crawled, indexed and ranked is more important than the value that google exports to a green bar.

[nipplecharms1]

Originally Posted by scanmonkey

That says a mouthful.

To most business owners how their site is crawled, indexed and ranked is more important than the value that google exports to a green bar.

To this business owner, traffic and sales are what counts. How to get people in the door is a direct correlation. I could give a $hit about that green monster on the TB. I only care how it impacts my traffic.. if at all. My links (or lack of them) are offered to build my traffic, not my green bar. Without traffic, there are no sales.

Does the larger the green bar make my site higher in the search engine placement so people be buy my stuff? If so I will chase it. But from many of you say here, the green bar is what, two months, 6 months or a year behind what Gozizzle is really doing today?

could this be much ado about nothing? I do not know but am reading this thread with gusto~!

Michael

[Webnauts]

I will continue observing the green bar as an indicator if I did something wrong or not, even if it happen a month ago.

[nipplecharms1]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Yes, absolutely. Google simply wants to provide better and better results and indeed, they want to do that because that's how they can continue to make money. Nothing sinister about it. Just good business.

MJ I think you miss my point. Good experience for the end user? Are you kidding? I was being sarcastic. When you are a monopoly, you can do what you want, when you want, to whom you want. Google does not give a rat's a$$ about anything other than what their INVESTOR'S think. Anything else for the rest of us is just icing on the cake.

If you do not understand that, no offense, then you do not understand capitalism at its core. MJ, we have spoken before and you are not dumb. Do not believe that Google is NOW into anything other than the bottom line. However they get to that end is what is important to them. And if owning a few shares of GOOG were in my portfolio, I would have it no other way. If you need an example outside of GOOG, just look at Microsoft. Do you think Windows is the very best product they can create? If you do I have yet another bridge in Brooklyn for sale! Cheap!

Michael

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

I will continue observing the green bar as an indicator if I did something wrong or not, even if it happen a month ago.

My point here is that I only use the green bar as an indicator of what I am doing right or wrong. If the GB# goes down, I have to see if my IBL are not as good as they were, or if my GB# goes up then what I have done during my testing is working. That simple, no more or no less.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by scanmonkey

That says a mouthful.

To most business owners how their site is crawled, indexed and ranked is more important than the value that google exports to a green bar.

Did you ever try to measure how much weight does that 1 out of 200 factors have? Observing Google the last couple months, and what is going on now, tell me that it gained a lot of weight. -

[vinay11111]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Cool observation! You confirm some of mine. But you did not mention that PR has more weight than before for rankings. In other words it became a very elegant ranking factor.

You are right, I never bothered about PR for rankings before. but After tis update I am bit confused and surprised also, As all of a sudden I got increase in PR and also my sites started appearing in google rankings. SO now I suspect some relation with PR and rankings now.

[aidantech]

Originally Posted by cass-hacks

Doesn't anyone care about the traffic they get from search engines or is the only thing that is important anymore are some pixels on a page?

I have seen a reduction in our TBPR for this first time ever, I to am slightly worried, but i still see the same rankings and traffic, so i tend to agree with CSS and Increadible and that TBPR value and site rankings in the SERP's are not related and that TBPR is only of value if you are in the business of selling links..

But i still think webnauts has reasons to be concerned.

Aidan