The Ongoing PageRank Massacre Hits Big Players

[webiff]

Well i agree with "Dartman" and "MjTaylor" comments.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by dartman

Back in the day when G's master plan worked the way they expected - sites linked to sites
because of high value content. Recips weren't an issue. Then someone figured out that
links helped increase PR and subsequent serp ranking. Along came recips and link progams.
Now if I have a site that sells standard white coffee cups who might link to it?
Nobody probably so the site would need to play the recip game in order to try to accumulate PR.
I'm sure you know this already. I never liked recips and still don't but it seems to be a necessary evil.

If we're going to get into history, I have to correct you. Back in the days of Alta Vista, before Google was even a twinkle in Page and Brin's eyes, webmasters traded links or joined web rings because they knew that it helped their ranking. My first job as an assistant webmaster in 1998 was for a classified site that sold text links (among other things)!

Cheers, MJ

[dartman]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

If we're going to get into history

From the incept of G and forward and specifically concerning G.
Was it not their intention to focus on natural links and not recips.

No worries, corrections always welcome, lol.
Cheers back at ya -

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Then Dave, why did the big players made such a big story out of this? I don't really get that.

IMO, a lot of reasons.

Google is "visually" telling them, and anyone who visits the site, that they (Google) consider the site less "valuable" or "important". How many people do you think use TBPR to "gauge" a site instead of looking at what information it delivers, where it ranks and for what?

TBPR, whether intended or not by the site owner, is a powerful motivator when it comes to monetizing some sites. Let's face it, there are many who base their decision on whether or not to purchase advertising or a featured directory listing based solely on the green bar. If you were offering well defined advertising space or directory listings, would it really matter to you if someone with a really good site was interested in a slot strictly because of TBPR?

I didn't really hear much where traffic and rankings were hurt. In fact, many were saying that they were either unaffected or on the rise. But the "perception" that it "could" be affected is most certainly there. A perception that was created by TBPR.

Look at it personally for moment John. What if your traffic and rankings remained the same or were on the rise and your TBPR went down. What would you do? How would you react?

Dave

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Google is "visually" telling them, and anyone who visits the site, that they (Google) consider the site less "valuable" or "important". How many people do you think use TBPR to "gauge" a site instead of looking at what information it delivers, where it ranks and for what?

TBPR, whether intended or not by the site owner, is a powerful motivator when it comes to monetizing some sites. Let's face it, there are many who base their decision on whether or not to purchase advertising or a featured directory listing based solely on the green bar. If you were offering well defined advertising space or directory listings, would it really matter to you if someone with a really good site was interested in a slot strictly because of TBPR?

These were and are my points since I am involved in SEO.

So, as we both know, the values exported in the TBPR are not up-to-date and therefore not accurate. But for the majority of the web public, the TBPR IS IMPORTANT! Posed this way, it is important for me and every online marketer, etc. too. Or? And I have to laugh all the time, when for example "site marketers" site(s) TBPR values drop and they hanging around in forums or elsewhere, pretending that they do not feel harmed, explaining that the TBPR has no value. Thanks Dave.

Originally Posted by crankydave

I didn't really hear much where traffic and rankings were hurt. In fact, many were saying that they were either unaffected or on the rise. But the "perception" that it "could" be affected is most certainly there. A perception that was created by TBPR.
Look at it personally for moment John. What if your traffic and rankings remained the same or were on the rise and your TBPR went down. What would you do? How would you react? Dave

I would sit back and enjoy watching my traffic and rankings success, I wouldn't worry about the TBPR, but I sure wouldn't hang around in forums trying to turn down the marketing value of the TBPR as most ladies and gentlemen I know already do. I am not talking about the ones whose TBPR values have dropped due to penalties like buying or selling links. Just to avoid any misunderstandings.

[dartman]

Besides webmasters, seo and sem types, I'm curious as to what percentage
of mainstream everyday shoppers (joe consumer) place any value on the green bar -
or even know what it represents.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by dartman

Besides webmasters, seo and sem types, I'm curious as to what percentage
of mainstream everyday shoppers (joe consumer) place any value on the green bar -
or even know what it represents.

In my whole career I only had one client who did not know something about the green bar.
How do you like that?

[dartman]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

In my whole career I only had one client who did not know something about the green bar.
How do you like that?

Ok, let me amend then - Besides "clients", webmasters, site owners, seo and sem types
Speaking strictly on ecommerce sites what % of shoppers do you think place any value on the green bar -
or even know what it represents.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by dartman

Ok, let me amend then - Besides "clients", webmasters, site owners, seo and sem types
Speaking strictly on ecommerce sites what % of shoppers do you think place any value on the green bar -
or even know what it represents.

Aren't site owners or webmaster shoppers?

[dartman]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Aren't site owners or webmaster shoppers?

Of course.
Aren't there shoppers that are not site owners or webmasters?
Shall we guestimate a figure? 1000 shoppers for every site owner?
Maybe it's too early across the pond and you haven't had your java yet
with that reply.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

I would sit back and enjoy watching my traffic and rankings success, I wouldn't worry about the TBPR, but I sure wouldn't hang around in forums trying to turn down the marketing value of the TBPR as most ladies and gentlemen I know already do. I am not talking about the ones whose TBPR values have dropped due to penalties like buying or selling links. Just to avoid any misunderstandings.

You would not worry about this situation

Originally Posted by kgun

A side from Wige's rounding down, that is a false change. Who can rule out that this variable's simultaneous or lagged effect

TbR = (8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8 .... 8,5,5,5,5, ....,5,5,5,5,5,5,....) (a real massacre)

on a pages SERP position is not significant?

?

Simultaneously or lagged (after a time?).

S=SERP position.

Tb=TbPage Rank

T=Complete Information Set of Tb = (Tb(t),Tb(t-1) ...) t=time,

H0: S=f(T)

Would you reject any unknown function f? If yes, by which means?

IBL's that is the egg, came before Tb Rank, that is the chicken.

I see very much speculation about pagerank. The only measure I can observe with my eyes is Tb, more precisely T.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

I see very much speculation about pagerank. The only measure I can observe with my eyes is Tb, more precisely T.

I also use both, desktop and online application called PageRankBot PageRankBot - Supplemental Results Detector (SEO Tool)

This tool tells:

• Gives you complete control over internal PageRank distribution.
• Helps you visualize exactly what's going on with your internal links.
• Takes the guesswork out of solving supplemental results issues.
• Saves your work so you only have to deep crawl a site once.
• And a whole lot more.

Also a tool which I guess it is no more available for download called SnooPR.It is a software tool to evaluate the amount of PageRank received from a linking page. It automatically queries and calculates the estimated PR Boost that the linking page will give out. Usage is very easy - just enter your URLs and press Analyze.

SnooPR can be used to evaluate and decide between many links.
-Rank potential link partners and prioritize your time and effort.
-Decide between several link pages if you are buying links.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

I also use both, desktop and online application called PageRankBot PageRankBot - Supplemental Results Detector (SEO Tool)

This tool tells:

• Gives you complete control over internal PageRank distribution.
• Helps you visualize exactly what's going on with your internal links.
• Takes the guesswork out of solving supplemental results issues.
• Saves your work so you only have to deep crawl a site once.
• And a whole lot more.

Also a tool which I guess it is no more available for download called SnooPR.It is a software tool to evaluate the amount of PageRank received from a linking page. It automatically queries and calculates the estimated PR Boost that the linking page will give out. Usage is very easy - just enter your URLs and press Analyze.

SnooPR can be used to evaluate and decide between many links.
-Rank potential link partners and prioritize your time and effort.
-Decide between several link pages if you are buying links.

My bolding. John, how is that possible?

You seem to be correct about SnooPR. All download links I tried redirected me to this

tenon cutter garden tool auto at tartools.com ("Why am I seeing this web site"? Click on that link. That does not worry me a second).

page, that I have seen many times and will not link to.

Do you know this free snoopr download site?

Click on the link "Similar software."

SnooPR result of search similar to program in software. (At least 10 pages with 100 hits!! on each page).

There is nothing new under the sun, only atoms and / or bits changing place and form

Here

Data Recovery Review - all about SEOSmart Future PR 1.0

"First released tool from SEOSmart package is called Future PageRank. It checks 19(!) Google data centers for PageRank. It gives you instant result about your rank dynamics.

How it works? As you know, Google - is not a one web-server. It is a servers network around the world. Nothing changes immediately in Google. Even PageRank . You can wait for changes for long weeks before you've got it. But we have the solution for you! Now you can check 19 Google data centers for PageRank(tm) of given url. So, if some part of google increases your PR - you will be informed immediately.

This tool also will be helpful for webmaster, who buy or exchanging links. With SEOSmart FuturePR you can check your partners site PR. Imagine, what if you bought a link with PR7 (and paid for it a big money), but PR getting lower for some reasons? FuturePR is your solution here. You can check PR dynamics and will be notified about smallest changes in PageRank. So your money will be saved".

is another tool.

I do not think you answered my questions.

But I like what I see on my toolbar, our little green friend

[Webnauts]

Kjell I assume that I did not understand your question. If I did, I have already answered your question elsewhere. If the second option is the case, I would like to remind you that I hate repeating myself and additionally I am not a guy for discussing fictions.

I check the tool you have posted. Absolutely nothing to do with SnooPR. Just to make that clear here.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Kjell I assume that I did not understand your question.

In my view that is the correct option. My be I shall clear my background:

I have a degree in Economics from UIO (University Of Oslo) and specializing in Econometrics ("methodology aimed at giving empirical content to economic theory" by a popular definition).

What has this to do with TbRank?

Google claims, as far as I know, that about 200 variables are used in computing SERP position.

TbRank is for me an indicator variable that I can obeserve and quantify. It is an indicator / metric / measure of the importance of IBL's (IMO an important variable) that is fairly stable / permanent.

Google still claims:

PageRank is Google's view of the importance of this page.

This thread is about:

The Ongoing PageRank Massacre Hits Big Players

This is as told above a real page rank massacre

Tb Rank (over time)=(8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,8,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,5,....) This is far from a constant. It is a variable indicating what an econometrician would call a regime shift (a break in the slope of a line, if the relation is linear, to make it even more clear.) A word that even Google may accept. Regime before and after the PageRank Massacre.

I would be very surprised if there were a serious scientific analysis rejecting the general (note the word) hypothesis that there is a relationship between this or a worse massacre and the position on the SERP of that page.

For an economist, prices are some of the best indicators you can use. If you want to switch consumption from one good to another good, that is better for our environments to use a popular example, tax that good, that is raise the price of that good relative to other goods that is better for the environments. Prices carries information, in short prices are information carriers. In this regard our little green friend carries important information, at least IMO. What do you think? If you have already answered that question, is your answer the same after my clarification?

To conclude:
Tb Rank is IMO until the opposite is proved (not easy to convince me with spurious correlations etc. see my posts above) an easily quantifiable indicator that can be used in a time series, cross section or best of all a pooled time series cross section analysis to test how important IBL's is for SERP position.

That may still be valid, even if Google claims the opposite. Sometimes informed outsiders know more than uninformed insiders. See my post above about put options.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

Google claims, as far as I know, that about 200 variables are used in computing SERP position.

TbRank is for me an indicator variable that I can obeserve and quantify. It is an indicator / metric / measure of the importance of IBL's (IMO an important variable) that is fairly stable / permanent.

Google still claims:

PageRank is Google's view of the importance of this page.

You can be sure that we are on the same side Kjell. I just wanted to avoid trigerring a discussion here, which would lead to nowhere. I guess we need to have a coffee together and discuss this in peace.

Originally Posted by kgun

To conclude:
Tb Rank is IMO until the opposite is proved (not easy to convince me with spurious correlations etc. see my posts above) an easily quantifiable indicator that can be used in a time series, cross section or best of all a pooled time series cross section analysis to test how important IBL's is for SERP position.

That may still be valid, even if Google claims the opposite. Sometimes informed outsiders know more than uninformed insiders. See my post above about put options.

AMEN.

[dartman]

Granted - PageRank is Google's view of the importance of a page.

Compared to what?
Other pages that rank for the same kw or kphrase?
All other pages in the index?

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by dartman

Granted - PageRank is Google's view of the importance of a page.

Compared to what?
Other pages that rank for the same kw or kphrase?
All other pages in the index?

All other pages in the index, on a scale of 1-10 ... PR calculation is entirely independent of keywords.

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by kgun

Google claims, as far as I know, that about 200 variables are used in computing SERP position.

TbRank is for me an indicator variable that I can obeserve and quantify. It is an indicator / metric / measure of the importance of IBL's (IMO an important variable) that is fairly stable / permanent.

Google still claims:

PageRank is Google's view of the importance of this page.

Except for the fact that Google now claims that OBL's (paid ones) have affected TBPR. At the very least, this makes it's use an indicator/metric/measure for the importance IBL's worthless because you have no way of knowing precisely what is affecting TBPR.

With this latest export, a site that goes from a TBPR of 6 to a TBPR of 3 says exactly what about that sites IBL's?

Dave

[kgun]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Except for the fact that Google now claims that OBL's (paid ones) have affected TBPR. At the very least, this makes it's use an indicator/metric/measure for the importance IBL's worthless because you have no way of knowing precisely what is affecting TBPR.

OBL's for me is IBL's for you.

IMO, quite the opposite, it is an improved objective (less manipulated) measure. The effect of bought position is filtered out.

That said, Google has also said that this update has had no effect on SERP position. I am not 100 % sure, especially after a period that last until the next update. Then the question is, will this update directly or indirectly interfer with the next update? If yes, how?

Originally Posted by crankydave

With this latest export, a site that goes from a TBPR of 6 to a TBPR of 3 says exactly what about that sites IBL's?

Many (all??) of them have been bought and are as such not objective.

Have you heard it told (may be another of the many rumours / speculations surrounding Google) that a page (site) may get a higher hit on the SERP's because of a more precise description of the page in the text of the anchor of the IB link (semantic linking if you will)? Picture, mosaic. The final picture is more worth than the sum of the individual parts. According to Google, there is now, no bought lunch for such a picture. An improvement IMO.

Again according to Google, that shall have no effect on SERP position. I am still unsure, since there are indirect effects, where one obvious is that less webmasteres are inclinded to link to your site with relevant anchor text of IBL's.

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by kgun

Many (all??) of them have been bought and are as such not objective.

TBPR doesn't say that. Not at all. TBPR doesn't tell you why it has changed.

You cannot go to a random site and know what the TBPR is a reflection of. Therefore you cannot use it as any sort of objective metric when it comes to IBL's.

Dave

[kgun]

Originally Posted by crankydave

TBPR doesn't say that. Not at all. TBPR doesn't tell you why it has changed.

But I can, as many do in this forum, use my thougts / speculations of the effect on SERP position of a algorithme with about 200 variables as a concequence of changing a single variable?

Originally Posted by crankydave

You cannot go to a random site and know what the TBPR is a reflection of. Therefore you cannot use it as any sort of objective metric when it comes to IBL's.

My bolding. You may be correct, since it is now a better reflection of the importance of a page as Google see's it. Hopefully a more objective measure.

Then it may be an even better indicator of a regime shift magnitude. See my posts above.

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by kgun

But I can use my thougts / speculations of the effect on SERP position of a algorithme with about 200 variables as a concequence of changing a single variable?

Sure, if the computation of that variable is applied equally to all pages. It is not.

Sure, if that variable affects the SERP's in the first place. TBPR does not.

Sure, if you know what that variable is derived from in every instance. You do not. You can only guess.

Dave

[Cratima]

If everybody hear about the big ones that lose PR, they will make then earn traffic. everybody will go on their site to se if the Pr drop is true!

[kgun]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Sure, if you know what that variable is derived from in every instance. You do not. You can only guess.

You are completely wrong.

I think I can confirm that you do not know what a regime shift variable is and that sometimes there are methods to derive what is going on inside, better than insiders are able to themself and some other uninformed outsiders.

Example:
Do you know that Merrill Lynch had a positive report on Enron 14 (or was it 7 days) before it was broke? (This is not related to this discussion in any other sense than as an example of how difficult it can be to conclude from a statistical or intuitive analysis of the effect of major changes like a regime shift.) By using elementary Japanese Candle stick analysis on the time series of stock quotes it was not difficult for other (note the word) informed outsiders to figure out what was going on.

Read my posts above:
I have not said there is a relation. Neither have I ruled out one.

Do you think that a long enough time interval has elapsed since the socalled massacre started to make a firm conclusion of cause and effect on the SERP's and / or on Tb Pagerank of that massacre?

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by kgun

Do you think that a long enough time interval has elapsed since the socalled massacre started to make a firm conclusion of cause and effect on the SERP's and / or on Tb Pagerank of that massacre?

I could have made a firm conclusion before the so called massacre as well as after...

TBPR has never had an effect on the SERP's.

The question I believe, is what does TBPR now reflect. Prior to now, it was a reasonable assumption that it was a reflection of the internal PR metric. At present, I don't believe that is the case.

Additionally, it was very carefully worded that the latest TBPR export reflected "opinion" and not "importance". I do not subscribe to the notion that the 2 are the same.

Can one not have a lower "opinion" of a page (TBPR) and still find that page very "important" (SERP's)?

Example... Our "opinion" of this page has gone down because they appear to sell links and we don't like that, but that page is still "important" so where it ranks has not changed.

Dave

[kgun]

Originally Posted by crankydave

I could have made a firm conclusion before the so called massacre as well as after...
TBPR has never had an effect on the SERP's.

Not the factors it reflected (and now reflects)?

Originally Posted by crankydave

The question I believe, is what does TBPR now reflect. Prior to now, it was a reasonable assumption that it was a reflection of the internal PR metric. At present, I don't believe that is the case.

Additionally, it was very carefully worded that the latest TBPR export reflected "opinion" and not "importance". I do not subscribe to the notion that the 2 are the same.

Can one not have a lower "opinion" of a page (TBPR) and still find that page very "important" (SERP's)?

Example... Our "opinion" of this page has gone down because they appear to sell links and we don't like that, but that page is still "important" so where it ranks has not changed.

Can buy that.

Related WPW post, that indicates the importance of IBL's (eggs that came before the old hens Tb Rank).

Is Google Page Rank really that important?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by Cratima

If everybody hear about the big ones that lose PR, they will make then earn traffic. everybody will go on their site to se if the Pr drop is true!

Well does that guarantee long-terms success? That sounds like for example what we call black hat SEO techniques. Can such survive?

[crankydave]

Quote:
Originally Posted by crankydave
Sure, if you know what that variable is derived from in every instance. You do not. You can only guess.

You are completely wrong.

I think I can confirm that you do not know what a regime shift variable is and that sometimes there are methods to derive what is going on inside, better than insiders are able to themself and some other uninformed outsiders.

Kgun, when it comes to TBPR what I meant by this comment is if indeed the variable (TBPR) takes into account "sold links", you cannot know whether ALL sites selling/buying links had their TBPR adjusted because of those links, you can only guess.

Dave

[kgun]

Originally Posted by crankydave

Quote:
Kgun, when it comes to TBPR what I meant by this comment is if indeed the variable (TBPR) takes into account "sold links", you cannot know whether ALL sites selling/buying links had their TBPR adjusted because of those links, you can only guess.

Correct, since I have no serious empirical analysis and do not intend to make one either.

Do other posters in this thread have a serious empirical analysis?

Or are their guessing more qualified?

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by kgun

Correct, since I have no serious empirical analysis and do not intend to make one either.

Do other posters in this thread have a serious empirical analysis?

Or are their guessing more qualified?

Of course not Kgun.

It just all goes back to my original observation.

Originally Posted by kgun

TbRank is for me an indicator variable that I can obeserve and quantify. It is an indicator / metric / measure of the importance of IBL's (IMO an important variable) that is fairly stable / permanent.

It cannot be this for the reasons I stated. My bolding.

Dave

[kgun]

So the conclusion of this thread with the title:

"The Ongoing PageRank Massacre Hits Big Players"

my bolding, is:

The egg (IBL's) came before the chicken (Tb PageRank) that came before the hen (refined Tb PageRank) that may lay a new egg (SERP position) in the future.

[dartman]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

All other pages in the index, on a scale of 1-10 ... PR calculation is entirely independent of keywords.

I said PR. The scale of 1-10 is TBPR. Not what I had in mind but let's go with it.
So in other words - all the millions of pages with a green bar of 4 are equally important?

[kgun]

Originally Posted by dartman

I said PR. The scale of 1-10 is TBPR. Not what I had in mind but let's go with it.
So in other words - all the millions of pages with a green bar of 4 are equally important?

My opinion, in a sense yes, from a pure technical point of view.

Compare it to temperature. Temperature in a given point on the earth is not difficult to measure. But temperature is the outcome of a very high dimensional chaotic system where factors like

1. Geo location
2. Season
3. Cosmic Radiation
4. Global warming
5. Height from sea level
6. Environments
7. Local factors
8. Etc.

are important for the measurement you read on your thermometer. Galileo made his own thermometer.

As far as I know, Google have always stated that

Pagerank is Google's view of the importance of this page. So look at PageRank as Google's thermometer of the importance of a page.

I personally thought that to a large degree it reflected IBL's (the heart of Google's algorithme). I still think it does after this massacre, where one dimension of the high dimensional system that we know as the SERP's, namley position identified as bought (manipulated in a sense) is ruled out.

Improving the "Google thermometer" is in my personal view an ongoing project comparable to constantly improved measures of fund ratings.

P.S. How many points on the earth has exactly 50 degrees farenheit today?

Of course it is much more difficult to get a Tb PageRank of 4 for a site in a low competitive business compared to one with intense competition. So in a sense the measure is relative.

[kgun]

How actual is this statement today?

"Make sure that other sites link to yours
Links help our crawlers find your site and can give your site greater visibility in our search results. When returning results for a search, Google combines PageRank (our view of a page's importance) with sophisticated text-matching techniques to display pages that are both important and relevant to each search. Google counts the number of votes a page receives as part of its PageRank assessment, interpreting a link from page A to page B as a vote by page A for page B. Votes cast by pages that are themselves "important" weigh more heavily and help to make other pages "important."
Keep in mind that our algorithms can distinguish natural links from unnatural links. Natural links to your site develop as part of the dynamic nature of the web when other sites find your content valuable and think it would be helpful for their visitors. Unnatural links to your site are placed there specifically to make your site look more popular to search engines. Some of these types of links (such as link schemes and doorway pages) are covered in our webmaster guidelines.
Only natural links are useful for the indexing and ranking of your site".

<quote>
When returning results for a search, Google combines PageRank (our view of a page's importance) with sophisticated text-matching techniques to display pages that are both important and relevant to each search. Google counts the number of votes a page receives as part of its PageRank assessment, interpreting a link from page A to page B as a vote by page A for page B. Votes cast by pages that are themselves "important" weigh more heavily and help to make other pages "important."
</quote>
My bolding.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by kgun

<quote>
When returning results for a search, Google combines PageRank (our view of a page's importance) with sophisticated text-matching techniques to display pages that are both important and relevant to each search. Google counts the number of votes a page receives as part of its PageRank assessment, interpreting a link from page A to page B as a vote by page A for page B. Votes cast by pages that are themselves "important" weigh more heavily and help to make other pages "important."
</quote>
My bolding.

So was I right claiming that the combination of PageRank and PhraseRank Algorithms are the major factors for ranking?

[crankydave]

I don't think anything has really changed in that respect Kgun.

Google combines PageRank (our view of a page's importance)... No reason to think that this is not being done as far as their intenal measure is concerned. Precisely how much influence it actually has is another matter alltogether.


...with sophisticated text-matching techniques... Well, I think is is kinda obvious. Question is how many different "sophisticated text-matching techniques" can you think of and how many different ways can they be weighted.

Not too many things outside of links and text to take into consideration. Remove all links and all text what's left? It's all a matter of how it's weighted.

Not sure what this has to do with the toolbar discussion but my 2 cents worth anyway.

Dave

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by onthink

Pagerank is definitely important

Here you are again. And I think you did not even read the original post.
But can you explain why PageRank is important?