Google search - going back to basics

[dirtydavid]

OK. I am no search engine freak. I have been struggling to work out what google is up to just like everyone else. I have been building sites for some 9 years now, and have been at the top of the search engines, and disapeared from view completely.

I am going to be a heretic. I think G may be going back to basics, and trying to produce results that users, rather than webmasters, want to see!

I have tried to follow the advice of "seo experts" to get and then retain page one positions for keywords, but always failed. Since the last G "mess up" all my sites have started appearing on p1 and p2 of the results on most of my kewords. All by using honest use of keywords and descriptions which reflect what my sites are about, and where they do business.

I have changed little in the way I work in 9 years, and my sites have always survived by getting more traffic from links than search engines, but the recent changes in g have been a most welcome boost to traffic/business.

The sites that have risen the most are the pages with no landing pages, no optimised pages, sites with perhaps 20 pages have as many as 3 mentions on page 1 in google for logical serch terms. My mega sites with 250,000 landing pages still struggle to get page 1 mentions, and detailed traffic reports suggest that less than half a percentof my uniques a day come from my landing pages. perhaps its time to kill the landing pages and go back to basics on all my sites.

Am I right? or am I just the lucky sod ?

David

[DrK]

I made the same experience. I even have one page web sites that rank 1+2 for the keyword and other sites do not produce at all. There is still a good portion of timing and good luck involved otherwise you would only be seeing the sites that our fellow SEO guys made on the first SERP.
I think it is a healthy combination of on-site optimization, inbound links and ACTUAL traffic that makes the secret sauce.

[incrediblehelp]

Landing pages? What year are we in? Landing pages were are thing of the past in 2000. Start creating good content pages or product pages for your end users and you will see your search referrers start to go up. Also checking rankings will give you heart palpitations. Please stick to checking your search logs for how and what you get ranked for.

[SemAdvance]

My mega sites with 250,000 landing pages still struggle to get page 1 mentions, and detailed traffic reports suggest that less than half a percentof my uniques a day come from my landing pages.

Not knowing your methodology of working, but using common sense, your 250,000 pages were likely not original content pages but rather likely machine generated waste, which the search engines see through as what the site is intended for, and that is built for search engines, not users.

Slow & steady will always win over quick fixes, use of automation, etc. While your sites surf up and down I and others have clients in front page positions for years.

As incred has mentioned build information rich content pages for users.

[craigmn3]

The Rules are Simple.

Content Content and More Content

Keyword Density

Relevant Pages

Don't Spam

and clean up your errors

the last one there will kill you. It killed me.

Last week google "stirred it's pot" again my word for algorthm tweeking and I got sent to google hell.

a Website in the top 5 for years suddenly vanished....what happened.

What happened was a server change. I got transfered from one server to another newer one by my hoster (my request)
In the transfer a tiny but of data got corrupted putting an error on my main page.
and I got Zapped to the inferno.

I updated my sitemap, did all manner of SEO type stuff, then found the error. I fixed it and in three days I was number 2 again on my main keyword on google.

The google monster is a picky monster....tread lightly

[SemAdvance]

Well now if that were true then http://www.visa.com would not be number one for the term credit card as they have five validation errors according to w3c.org and the term is one of the more highly competitve terms marketed.

Also your turn around time of three days is questionable in my eyes, given Googles inherent slowness in noticing changes, though I will say if the error stopped the bot dead in its tracks which would result in a severe drop there is a possibility fixing it would put you back a bit more quickly.

The other problem is this http://www.google.com cannot possibly use the validation issue as a true measuring stick since a validation of the Google index page shows 44 errors according to the W3C.org html validator.

Failed validation, 44 errors

Now Google cannot hold one to the coals when they themselves are one of the most guilty of the sinners.

or as was once said

"man speak with forked tongue"

Either one to choose, point is the imagine the ironic nature, were it true.

[edhan]

Originally Posted by craigmn3

The Rules are Simple.

Content Content and More Content

Keyword Density

Relevant Pages

Yes. Building up with good rich content for a long period of time will be the best solution. There is no shortcut to get better ranking in Google. If you stick to basic rules then you should be able to see some results.

[Inspector]

Validation? I don't even trust those validators. Some swear by them but who cares?

I am number 1 or 2 in all my search terms. According to those validators my site is a mess.

Early on one or two people had me scared to death over that absurd validation. Turns out I lost sleep for nothing.

[SemAdvance]

Originally Posted by Inspector

Turns out I lost sleep for nothing.

Sleep is over rated anyway...waste of time really...besides there is the time when we sleep forever...which I keep trying to delay ;-P

[scanmonkey]

Originally Posted by SemAdvance

Sleep is over rated anyway...waste of time really...besides there is the time when we sleep forever...which I keep trying to delay ;-P

Death and taxes!!!

[SemAdvance]

A. Death and taxes

Q. What are the two things man must do?

[philwill4u]

I'm not all that convinced that content is as important as it should be. There are many directories that show up with all but the basic of content. Perhaps the links are strong and compensate. Who really knows?

[briguy]

Semadvace[quote]Well now if that were true then http://www.visa.com would not be number one for the term credit card as they have five validation errors according to w3c.org and the term is one of the more highly competitve terms marketed. "

Like I said before the rules dont'apply to the big boys check out at "google" in the validator

[SemAdvance]

Had I the time I would run all 10 sites found on Googles front page for 'credit card' through the validator and would venture to guess 90% do not validate.

Maybe I will this weekend for kicks and stay out of the drag races ;->

[briguy]

I stick to the drag race but if you had a "wireless" laptop you can do both but seriously you probably are right about the 90%...but getting back to the "visa", I wonder what the ranking for it is on "Yahoo", "MSN" and the other search engines maybe I will do that now

[MaxPowers]

Being valid isn't critical to SE goodness, but some validation (failure) points are spider killers. Like anything else, validation has it's subtleties.

I'm sure that visa wins on links even in what they fail on on-page coding. In the little of this, little of that algorithms, one facet can outweigh others.

[DrTandem1]

Originally Posted by Inspector

Validation? I don't even trust those validators. Some swear by them but who cares?

I am number 1 or 2 in all my search terms. According to those validators my site is a mess.

Early on one or two people had me scared to death over that absurd validation. Turns out I lost sleep for nothing.

No offense, but I think you may want to look at your site in several different browsers. IE6 shows some problems. On Firefox it really has some issues.

[briguy]

Good point made above by DrTandem1 about checking your site on other browsers

[Chris]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

Landing pages? What year are we in? Landing pages were are thing of the past in 2000. Start creating good content pages or product pages for your end users and you will see your search referrers start to go up. Also checking rankings will give you heart palpitations. Please stick to checking your search logs for how and what you get ranked for.

you might not want to discount landing pages so quickly. i've seen a number of advertisers who fail to convert because their destination page (or landing page) you arrive at after clicking their link is garbage.

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by Chris

you might not want to discount landing pages so quickly. i've seen a number of advertisers who fail to convert because their destination page (or landing page) you arrive at after clicking their link is garbage.

Sure I have heard of PPC buyers using landing pages separate from the "real" product pages they use on their website. This is OK.

Now if you "real" or organic landings page is garbage, well then fix them. You should not build one page for SEO and one page for your customers/visitors. The experience should be the same for the spider and the end user.

Now with that being said I think what the poster above was referring to are machine made garbage landing pages.

[SemAdvance]

You should not build one page for SEO and one page for your customers/visitors. The experience should be the same for the spider and the end user.

I would have to disagree.....SEO users and SEM users are two different mindsets.

Part of the problem seems to be both Chris and yourself have forgotten the user and where they are in their search.

Organic users are "comparison shopping" searchers and would want content from which to learn or compare, so they should / would arrive via doorway pages on your site, for example sales would have a subdomain and a doorway page into the sales area as such, also there maybe a service side with a different doorway page used to funnel the visitor deeper into the website.

Paid search typically involved "buy mind" searchers who are driven to landing pages designed to do whatever the marketing department has set as a goal whether that be driven to a sale, lead generation, or e-mail form fill.

These pages are typically known as 'landing' pages as once the visitor has landed we want them to take action and as such... are not moving them to other parts of our site.

Hope this helps clear up some things.

[incrediblehelp]

Well SEM I agree on that part. Build all the doorways you want for SEM/PPC/CPC (whatever you call it) as long as you block them from the spiders.

[nipplecharms1]

Originally Posted by SemAdvance

Failed validation, 44 errors[/b]

Now Google cannot hold one to the coals when they themselves are one of the most guilty of the sinners.

or as was once said

"man speak with forked tongue"

My close Philly neighbor... please tell me you are kidding me with this statement!!

What, never heard of "do as I say, not as I do?"

<tongue-in-cheek>

Don't wake the dragon or we will all go up in flames.

:)

Thanks for the chuckle! Now back to your regularly scheduled thread.

Michael

[nipplecharms1]

Originally Posted by Chris

you might not want to discount landing pages so quickly. i've seen a number of advertisers who fail to convert because their destination page (or landing page) you arrive at after clicking their link is garbage.

Guys, there are some that need the landing page. Look at any site that is... how do I say this... more "straight-laced thinking" challanged.

For the longest time we had a doorway/landing/enter page. We had our models wearing our jewelry front and center... Last thing I wanted was some kid or holy roller hitting our site and having a cow. That said.. what were they doing search on our topics in the first place... another discussion.

My point is that I had good doorway page that people had to "enter" to get in and I had a little blurb about what they would see.

I took that down simply because everyone here said the doorway was not a good idea. I cleaned up my index page.. sans greater that PG-13 pics and started over.

And checking your logs, do you not miss terms you should be looking for?

And if hear one more bloody time about fresh content... Riddle me this batman (and batchicks):

You have a limited number of items you sell. How do you make that fresh?

I sell a black widget.
Here is a picture of the widget.
Here is how the widget works.
Here are the benefits of the widget
Here is some testimonial widget words...

What, I need 250 page saying the widget is great?

Hummmmm? Maybe I will start a widget thread....

Michael

[SemAdvance]

Michael

It wouldn't be me if I didn't tug on Supermans Cape, Mess around with the Lone lone Ranger, and definitely take a swipe at Jim so it only goes to say I take Google to task at times even if I do like them deep down inside.

Though you are correct one does not need a 250 page site to discuss said yellow widget what many seem to forget is Google is a very wise search engine and as such looks at individual pages and the website overall.

For 99.99% of us with websites are Contact page will not change over time, nor should it...

Your products and others products have some issues that would be the same and some unique....Google again knows this.

So your products may not turn as often as the guy selling T-shirts or compact discs...again the search engines for the most part realize these different issues effecting retailers and non retailers alike and takes these issues into account.

It should also be said this is made much easier for sites that participate in Googles offerings such as sitemaps, analytics, froogle, images etc.

I think many would do well to make Google a partner in their business as much as possible....for some odd reason they seem to do well building theirs.

Cheers mi amigo

[SwordOfBath]

Tis a good thread, Much to learn.
Have been out of it rearing children for 5 years. Was No1 in world on all majors for search "Salesmanship Tips".
I had built a pyramid site headed with www.psro.co.uk., second level was: www.salestrainingsellingsalesmanship.co.uk
using four main keywords as corner stones, I built the third level with sites using each one of the four words in the that last url. eg "sales'training,selling,salesmanship" Salesmanship.co.uk was already taken, so i dashed it = www.sales-manship.co.uk.
Fourth level was a subdirectory of salesmanship = www.salesmanshiptips.co.uk.

This made me No1 in the world for Salesmanship Tips, not just that one, but the four levels above as well. Thats right, I was No 1 in the world, holding the top 5 places at Google, MSN, LYCOS, YAHOO,and half a dozen others?

BUT NOT sales training or selling?

Every page in my cluster was headed"The Professional Salesmanship Resource Organisation (PSRO).
The use of that word "Salesmanship" on all those pages gave me the weight, and the sub directory "Salesmanship Tips" gave me the focus for the search expression.

I am just rebuilding it now, but this time 22 urls covering all focus details eg salesmanship books, salemanship cds, salesmanship dvds etc.

Think like a librarian, put subdirectories where they should be, attach urls to each, and get multiple listings.
The final directory or file eg "salesmanship tips" will become your landing page, and accurate.

Remember, Google Yahoo or whoever, will win future trade by returning ACCURATE results.

Think LIKE A LIBRARIAN, Good Searchable structure IS content.
Remember to create links to all other URLS in cluster, this does two things:
1) if your customer landed on a wrong page, they are only one click away,
2) you immediatly have link backs to each of your URLS adding to your ranking.

PS.. I noticed later after being No1 for a while, that I had not got around to putting any sales tips on there! Also now (5 years on), just realised I dont own it any more, so just bought it now: www.salesmanshiptips.co.uk

CHARITABLE MODEL
Having just come back, I have been building www.world--cup.co.uk. Its far from perfect, probably many things wrong, but its a good structural model to think about. I Won't get it up til South African World Cup now 2010, 2006 competition was 6 million urls.

If you have problems obtaining URLS, use the "-" where approriatte.
most of the world cup websites I needed to double--dash (remember search engines don't see dashes(hyphens)).
Sales Training double--dash was taken, so I triple---dashed it = www.sales---training.co.uk

feedback mailto:swordofbath@hotmail.com
Homepage www.treehouse-studios.com
[/google]

[nipplecharms1]

SemAdvance - Thanks for the comments! :)

have you had any experiece with the new froogle? I just uploaded my feed and they were kind enough to tell my file was out of compliance.

They want the new Goizzle layout.

I was killed when I added sitemap. Took if off and rose right back to Numero Uno!

I just dont want to get screwed more if Foizzle is as bad or worse.

All comments welcome and,dare I say, expected! :)

Michael

[SemAdvance]

Well I wanted to comment on the poster above you notes...pick a primary keyword term you want to rank well for and try to ensure it is used 100% throughout your website title tags.

Its density in each pages title tags matters not it can be at the front of the title or at the end.

Do the same within the description.

Helps a great deal in theming and on topic.

Froogle feed as with any must be 100% well formed. Wish that I was a programmer and understood this better.

http://highdesertsoftware.com/frooglefeedpro.html

try this (Not an affilate link)

As for the Google sitemap, can't see this effecting rankings as Google does not react to any implementations that quickly.

It may see that you uploaded the sitemap via verification... but I have not seen it instilled its usage in its crawling and indexing of a website for a few days, weeks, months, not sure of the exact time frame.


Google does not do 12 hits one day and 120 hits the next ...it is a gradual pick up with each time the bot returns.


[/yahoo]