Google Update, PageRank, Backlink Information

[Webnauts]

Everyone seem to believe that it began on the 5th of October. But it is very slow going. It must be combined with manual (human evaluations).

[gurnav]

PR 4 the very first day ... unbelieveable.

Originally Posted by Haze

Nice work webnauts!
Just had a similar experience when a brand new site got a 4 the very first day..
Mariah Boats Spain, Mariah Boats Showroom, Sale, service and storage.
Ciao Haze

[tomcatuk]

Er, I think you mean impossible. Unless by first day, he means first PR update day after the site went live.

[georgeST]

Is important PR in google, now?
Does it affect google results?

[tamecrow]

georgeST - No, it doesn't directly affect your results. Your PR doesn't, anyway.

[georgeST]

Thanks Tamecrow.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by tamecrow

georgeST - No, it doesn't directly affect your results. Your PR doesn't, anyway.

What means not directly? Can you be a bit more specific?

[tamecrow]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

What means not directly? Can you be a bit more specific?

I mean that higher PR does not correlate to higher rankings. Do a search for any term and look at the PageRank and SE positions of the top ten results. PR only loosely refers to the authority or pulling power of any outbound links you may offer. Even then, it's one of many, many more factors.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by tamecrow

I mean that higher PR does not correlate to higher rankings. Do a search for any term and look at the PageRank and SE positions of the top ten results. PR only loosely refers to the authority or pulling power of any outbound links you may offer. Even then, it's one of many, many more factors.

That is not 100% correct. For sure there are sites will lower PR and rank higher that others with higher PR. But that does not mean that PR has nothing to do with the search results.

If for example if my site has PR5 and ranks with Google number for the term "seo analysis", and others below me have PR 6 or 7, it is because PR is not the only ranking factor, but it still is.

Google says:

Originally Posted by Google

Make sure that other sites link to yours
Links help our crawlers find your site and can give your site greater visibility in our search results. When returning results for a search, Google combines PageRank (our view of a page's importance) with sophisticated text-matching techniques to display pages that are both important and relevant to each search. Google counts the number of votes a page receives as part of its PageRank assessment, interpreting a link from page A to page B as a vote by page A for page B. Votes cast by pages that are themselves "important" weigh more heavily and help to make other pages "important."
Keep in mind that our algorithms can distinguish natural links from unnatural links. Natural links to your site develop as part of the dynamic nature of the web when other sites find your content valuable and think it would be helpful for their visitors. Unnatural links to your site are placed there specifically to make your site look more popular to search engines. Some of these types of links (such as link schemes and doorway pages) are covered in our webmaster guidelines.

More: Webmaster Help Center - How can I create a Google-friendly site?

Did you see my other post about PageRank here? How often does Google Update PR?

[tomcatuk]

Still not seeing anything changing...and staring to feel bad about keeping looking at this thread. I'm desperately trying NOT to get overly concerned while at the same time worrying every other webmaster is smiling at his improved PR while I languish with the same results I've had since April or whenever it was.
Is saying "great post" still spam? Anyhows, Webnauts, great post. Really!

[cass-hacks]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

That is not 100% correct. For sure there are sites will lower PR and rank higher that others with higher PR. But that does not mean that PR has nothing to do with the search results.

I couldn't agree more. It may appear that PageRank is not a contributing factor but that is likely because PageRank is only 1 of ~200 ranking factors.

I did an experiment though where I essentially wiped out the PageRank contribution of two of the most important pages of the site, at the time. Not only did a large number of pages initially fall into Supplemental and eventually become deindexed but of the pages that remained in the Main index, their positions in the SERPs, which up to that point hadn't varied more than a slot or two, all dropped more than their previous average variance.

Regarding any toolbar PageRank update specifically, I haven't seen any changes at all across any of the sites I monitor, not that that means very much although what I have seen and have been seeing for the past couple of months are sites having their toolbar PageRank actually zeroed, although not always across entire sites.

But the really interesting thing is that although their toolbar PageRank has taken a dive, their page count in the Main index, their performance in the SERPs and most importantly, their Google sourced traffic haven't changed at all.

This has got to be the strangest Toolbar "update" in history.

Personally, I wish they would just get rid of the "green pixels" period and save us all a lot of grief!

[subhzash]

Hello Everyone,

I have a website which is showing 19 back links in Google. But in reality that site has 42 back links from page rank websites. Why Google is showing less back links and also my site has page rank of 3 from last one year. Please suggest me how can i improve my website page rank and link backs in google


Thank you for your valid time

Regards
Subhash

[mjtaylor]

I have been seeing updates to the toolbar for some weeks now ... but these are not across the bar updates, but mostly updates that reflect pages such as listings or links pages going to 0 and into the supplementals.

Many pages that are not related to link selling or trades are losing PR ... and understandably ... a real estate listing, for example, or a product listing has a relatively small chance of being visited by a random surfer than more general content pages, and I see this PR update reflecting those sorts of adjustments as well.

As others have noted, recent PR updates do not seem to be affecting SERP positions or traffic.

I would never say, "dont' worry about PR" but I would say there is less reason for concern than there was once ... as long as a site's SERPs and traffic are stable, PR changes are not a reason to panic.

The supplementals are also not the anathema they once were. I don't want to start an argument here, but just to note that as Google gets more and more tight with PR many legitimate content pages (such as product listings) are going to remain in the supplementals without detriment to the site.

Cheers, MJ

[crankydave]

Just as a reminder...

Lets not confuse PR (internal PR we can't see) with TBPR (toolbar PR that we can see). The latter is not a metric that Google uses.

Dave

[mjtaylor]

Well, let's not - and right now we are talking about updates to the tooolbar that we can see currently ... so, for a very short moment, they are not confusing, because they are the same ...

[crankydave]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Well, let's not - and right now we are talking about updates to the tooolbar that we can see currently ... so, for a very short moment, they are not confusing, because they are the same ...

They are never the same.

As far as the export goes, the snapshot of what is used for the toolbar export is usually around 30 days or so old so anything taken into consideration since then is not included.

Additionally, what you see on the toolbar us used for nothing as far as a Google metric is concerned. Internal PR, what we can't see, is always used as a metric but to what degree and for what is unknown.

Since correlation between the TBPR and the internal PR is not 1-1 a pages PR could have easily gone up or down without it being reflected on the toolbar. It could have also moved minutely, having no visible affects on rankings and still show an increase or a decrease on the silly green bar.

Dave

[mjtaylor]

Ah, well, I stand corrected. I believed that exported PR was accurate at the time of export.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

If for example if my site has PR5 and ranks with Google number for the term "seo analysis", and others below me have PR 6 or 7, it is because PR is not the only ranking factor, but it still is.

That is one factor. The total pagerank of all pages of the site and especially the pagerank of the home page should IMO also be taken into account.

Example:
Page A with PR 2 of Site I with homepage PR 9.

Page B with PR 4 of Site II with homepage PR 4.

Then Page A may IMO outposition (note the word) Page B on the SERP's.

IMO = More or less qualified guessing, and non tested empirical observation.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

I would never say, "dont' worry about PR" but I would say there is less reason for concern than there was once ... as long as a site's SERPs and traffic are stable, PR changes are not a reason to panic.

Do you know on my main site I have collected links since 1995.

PageRank is one very important factor, so if you want a centrally placed link on one of my pages, care about PR. How many link collectors (portals / directories) think like me?

[Portucuenta]

today I have noticed two TBPR updates!

I think it is finally progressing

[brandrocker]

Originally Posted by Portucuenta

today I have noticed two TBPR updates!

I think it is finally progressing

I suppose it is overdue now. But no luck for me till now.

[tomcatuk]

Lots of people seem to think that a TBPR update has happened/is happening. Anyone actually able to back this up? IE show me a page that has had it's TBPR changed?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

The supplementals are also not the anathema they once were.

Mj if you want to start an argument or not, pages that move into Google's
"supplemental results" for a variety of reasons, like:

* Canonicalization problems (duplicated content, or great similarity
of content)
* Little or no content
* Orphaned pages that no one links to, not even from their own domain
* Error pages (if a site does not use If-Modified-Since, Last
Modified and/or Expires rules
* Poor site navigation
* Keyword stuffing, loading pages with irrelevant words or phrases
* Long URLs, particularly with long parameters following a question
mark (?), separated by ampersands (&).
* Suspicious pages relating to spamdexing, like header tags or meta
tags which are non-unique and unrelated to the page content
* Linking to pages in a known "bad neighborhood"

is the anathema!

When pages go into the supplemental results, these pages can
dilute the page rank of other pages on a site. And since PageRank is a significant ranking factor (maybe not the main or only the one - can't really tell), they are harmful.

And as Dave mentioned, the values shown in the greenbar are not calculated on the date of their export. I do not know where Dave has the info about the 30 days, but if that is true, it would be interesting to see how your rankings where doing around that time. That could be a very interesting observation.

Just my last cents about this issue.

[Webnauts]

I have a couple of questions for all members on this thread:

My site seoworkers.com has PR 5 and my site webnauts.net has PR6, so I get a huge amount of link exchange requests everyday.

If my sites had no or low PR, would I get all those requests? Or if I would request a link exchange from other site owners and I had no or low PR, would they be willing to exchange with me? And if yes, how many (%)?

I know that the toolbar values are not accurate, but since it exists, I think people who are claiming that it is not important for them, cannot be really honest - or?

I would love to hear your opinions.

[mjtaylor]

I know you feel that way Webnauts. We will just have to agree to disagree.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

I know you feel that way Webnauts. We will just have to agree to disagree.

I am not sharing feelings. I share facts! Do we disagree at some point? If yes, can you please explain where?

[mjtaylor]

Yes, we disagree on whether being in the SI is as bad as it once was.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Yes, we disagree on whether being in the SI is as bad as it once was.

Since you do not agree, can you explain here why it is not so bad as it used to be? You must have some reason to believe so, or?

The only thing that changed for me is, that they are no more labeled.

So can you please teach me what I got wrong there? I am very curious to hear your facts I am missing.

Thanks.

[Webnauts]

MJ can you also please explain why does RandFish at SEOMOZ wants the supplemental results query back and why does he consider them incredibly valuable?
SEOmoz | Google - Please Bring Back the Supplemental Results Query; It's Incredibly Valuable

Sounds a bit weird. Don't you think?

[mjtaylor]

We've been through this in other threads ... which is why I hoped we could agree to disagree.

Briefly, Google has clearly changed its SI ... and there are far more pages in it now than there used to be, and more seem to make it into the SERPs than they used to ... I am not saying it's a good thing, I am saying it is not as dire as it used to be.

[Portucuenta]

Originally Posted by tomcatuk

Lots of people seem to think that a TBPR update has happened/is happening. Anyone actually able to back this up? IE show me a page that has had it's TBPR changed?

a project in what I work, Grand Prix Racing Online had pr 2, now it is 3
a site that I sold a couple of months ago and was on pr 3, now has pr 4 (Portucuenta.com - Proyectos freelance, programadores, webmasters, diseñadores)

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

We've been through this in other threads ... which is why I hoped we could agree to disagree.

Briefly, Google has clearly changed its SI ... and there are far more pages in it now than there used to be, and more seem to make it into the SERPs than they used to ... I am not saying it's a good thing, I am saying it is not as dire as it used to be.

If you do not agree with me, I honestly don't mind. But that you disagree with Dan Thies, RandFish, Aaaron Wall, Eric Enge and many others, I am honestly very impressed.
Anyway, I am sure the readers of this thread can judge what is right or what is wrong.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

We've been through this in other threads ... which is why I hoped we could agree to disagree.

Briefly, Google has clearly changed its SI ... and there are far more pages in it now than there used to be, and more seem to make it into the SERPs than they used to ... I am not saying it's a good thing, I am saying it is not as dire as it used to be.

Originally Posted by Google

What happened to Google's supplemental results? My pages no longer show this label.


We've removed the label "Supplemental Result" from our search result pages. Supplemental Results once enabled users to find results for queries beyond our main index. Because they were "supplemental," however, these URLs were not crawled and updated as frequently as URLs in our main index.
Google's technology has improved over time, and now we're able to crawl and index sites with greater frequency. With our entire web index fresher and more up to date, the "Supplemental Results" label outlived its usefulness.
For webmasters who have used the supplemental result label as a diagnostic aid, Google encourages the use of our Webmaster Tools and also our Analytics service. These free services can provide you with insight into those pages that users and Google may find less relevant.

Source: Webmaster Help Center - What happened to Google's supplemental results? My pages no longer show this label.

It is not as dire as it used to be?
What do they mean with their statement above?

And what does this mean?

"These free services can provide you with insight into those pages that users and Google may find less relevant."

What do you want to tell us here? That pages users and Google find less relevant are great? And I am still waiting to hear what changed about the SI, because the supplemental index purpose was the same from the first beginning, and Google confirms that nothing changed. Or did I miss something?

I am sure that the participants of this thread can make up their mind what info here is accurate, and what is not.

No further comments....

[Orion]

I think that Webnauts and mjtaylor are both partially correct...

What I can gather from reading through the thread here, and a bit of research is:

• that Google no longer tags pages as supplemental results
• 'those pages that Google and users may find less relevant' refers to those pages that aren't ranked as high and appear lower in the SERPs
• Supplemental results or those pages that used to be tagged as such were not crawled as frequently by the Google Bots and weren't updated in their index regularly
• Better technology has enabled Google to go ahead and crawl your entire site at the same frequency (in past only those pages that were deemed more relevant were crawled regularly)
• So now if you go through your webmaster tools and determine those pages that rank lower in the SERPs you can take measures to correct them and Google will crawl them all next time and you should see a resulting benefit much quicker
• in past supplemental pages would take forever to be recrawled and for us as webmasters to view the results of our efforts in a timely manner

So to varying degrees both of you have brought up great points and truthiness (to quote Steven Colbert) in regards to Supplemental Results..

Now as for the PR question??? When we go to a page and our Google toolbar shows us a pagerank of (eg.) 5 that's showing us what the PR was for that page sometime within about a month before the last update.

I still haven't figured out how to gage current 'live' PR on an individual page using the Google Webmaster Tools.. I just get this list of High, Medium, Low, Not Assigned for the site and I assume that the graph just represents the number of pages??? Here's what I get for one of my sites (below) that site has had a PR5 for 4 or 5 years now.

[Webnauts]

PageRank still going!

Some minutes ago the update took place from my sites.

My site seoworkers.com went from PR 5 to 6!

My forums forums.seoworkers.com went from PR 4 to 5!

My blog algojunkie.com went form PR 3 to PR4!

My directory seosearchbot.com went from PR (GREY) to PR 4!

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by Orion

Now as for the PR question??? When we go to a page and our Google toolbar shows us a pagerank of (eg.) 5 that's showing us what the PR was for that page sometime within about a month before the last update.

Just for your information, Google internally, my new PR values are 11 days old. They were calculated on the 16th of October and they were exported in the bar the last couple hours.

[cw1865]

The thing for me with the Supplemental Index is that the pages that were in there were only good for specific search queries to begin with and for those same specific queries the fact that they were/are in the Supplemental Index made no difference to me.....

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

PageRank still going!

Some minutes ago the update took place from my sites.

My site seoworkers.com went from PR 5 to 6!

My forums forums.seoworkers.com went from PR 4 to 5!

My blog algojunkie.com went form PR 3 to PR4!

My directory seosearchbot.com went from PR (GREY) to PR 4!

Good Job! You deserve it!

There also seems to be a wider than normal fluctuation in SERPs the past couple of days; if you review this thread about one site, you will see what I mean. And a few other webmasters have also reported this.

I would guess Google is either testing data centers or updating ... rather the same thing, really. Pins and needles, anyone?



MJ

[mjtaylor]

Yes, there is definitely a PR update underway ... just noticed several recently redesigned sites of mine, and all their pages are now indexed and reporting PR!

Huzzah for all!

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Good Job! You deserve it!

There also seems to be a wider than normal fluctuation in SERPs the past couple of days; if you review this thread about one site, you will see what I mean. And a few other webmasters have also reported this.

I would guess Google is either testing data centers or updating ... rather the same thing, really. Pins and needles, anyone?



MJ

MJ I was talking about PageRank update, and not about rankings. If you are about rankings (positions), my rankings are increasing the last two months dramatically. And my traffic increased since last June up to apporx. 375%. I never had before June more than 1,200 absolute unique visitors, and today I have 5,555 absolute unique visitors for the last 30 days.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

MJ I was talking about PageRank update, and not about rankings. If you are about rankings (positions), my rankings are increasing the last two months dramatically. And my traffic increased since last June up to apporx. 375%. I never had before June more than 1,200 absolute unique visitors, and today I have 5,555 absolute unique visitors for the last 30 days.

I am talking about both ... I said there also appears to be a ...

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

I am talking about both ... I said there also appears to be a ...

Well if its posed that way, then PageRank must have a lot to do with rankings and traffic. Or not?

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Well if its posed that way, then PageRank must have a lot to do with rankings and traffic. Or not?

So, how many times are you going to ask this question?

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

So, how many times are you going to ask this question?

Sorry MJ. I guess I did not understand your previous post.

Everything is fine.

[nameeta]

PR update has happened but what I see is that alot many sites have seen a drop in PR.Yes many of my new sites have got PR as well but the fall in PR is more than the rise.

[OLYMPOS]

I have about a dozen travel pages, hotels, travel agencies and else...

ALL PR 5 pages dropped to PR 4

All PR 4 pages dropped to PR 3

On other domains i saw they dropped from PR 6 to 4...

Interesting!

[FlatFeeKing]

I *think* you are saying that some sites rank well with few inbound links because they have a lot of content?

MJ[/quote]

my impression is that its based on more than inbound links and content, its based on traffic. You could have a site that has one word on it "wow" and one word in the title "wow" with no inbound links, but then have a super bowl commercial and 10,000,000 visitors in a week. When you searched for wow on google, your site would likely be #1

[tomcatuk]

Finally I see some changes. New sites have a little "green". My personal sites both dropped 4 to 3 on the homepages, but most internal pages went up to 3. Good as far as I can see - Google is giving more weight to the pages that have content.

[OLYMPOS]

My site seoworkers.com went from PR 5 to 6!

My forums forums.seoworkers.com went from PR 4 to 5!

My blog algojunkie.com went form PR 3 to PR4!

My directory seosearchbot.com went from PR (GREY) to PR 4!

You are very lucky then!!!!

Washington Post new PR 5 washingtonpost.com - nation, world, technology and Washington area news and headlines

Forbes Business News and Financial News new PR 4 Business News and Financial News at Forbes.com

Good as far as I can see - Google is giving more weight to the pages that have content.

[mjtaylor]

Yes, I see a general trend in sites going down about one PR overall ... some of my sites remained the same or improved, but most lost one PR across the board. However, none have lost any of their positions. All remain in G's top 5 for their most relevant phrase(s).

I conclude from this, that this PR update is largely a continued assault on links whether reciprocal or paid.

Olympus, how are your sites' rankings? Stable?