Google Update, PageRank, Backlink Information

[Insurance Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

I didn't check all pages yet, but so far...

My brand new pages which had PR 0 have now:

Accessibility, SEO, & Usability Testing & Consulting Company PR 5
Resources PR 6
Webnauts Net - Accessibility, SEO and Usability PR 6
Accessibility Testing PR 6
Why SEO should be important to you PR 6
About Us - Web Accessibility, SEO & Usability Consultants PR 6
Training Course Enrollment Form PR 6
On-site SEO Training Seminar PR 6
The need for accessibility PR7

Older pages for P6 to PR7:
Skip to Main Content Links are Important PR 7

That is all I can report so far. This is not a joke!

See also here: PR Update today - 13th July 2006 - Page 2 - Webmaster Forum

Maybe the problem is that my site is accessible. LOL

And I am coming soon with an interesting question. I will start later a thread about that.

Scottsdale Insurance I have a 0/10 page rank but have lots of search terms on the first and second page. My site is only 4 months old and trying to understand what role PR plays in the whole SE thing.
[Link updated by Mod Webnauts]

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by Insurance Phoenix

Scottsdale Insurance I have a 0/10 page rank but have lots of search terms on the first and second page. My site is only 4 months old and trying to understand what role PR plays in the whole SE thing.

PagRank is nothing else than a measurement unit about the quality of your inbound links and it is one of over 100 factors for rankings. Nothing to really worry about though.

If you have PR 0, it is a signal that your site lacks quality IBLs, which are important for better rankings.

[langard]

Don't chase PageRank. Concentrate on superior content and realistic 'organic' indexing. PageRank is ex post facto and, as Webnauts's says, it is a tiny factor in SEO work. You might find out if your IBLs pass muster about six months down the road because Google is too busy dealing with other critical aspects of their service(s) to fool with it.

[TrafficProducer]

Don't chase PageRank. (I agree, time is usually better spent on something else)

Chase the Rainbow.

Theirs gold at the end of the Rainbow, but the end of the rainbow does not exist.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by TrafficProducer

Chase the Rainbow.

Theirs gold at the end of the Rainbow, but the end of the rainbow does not exist.

I have been at the end of the rainbow ... it happens when you are in just the right spot between the sun and the rain ... and there is an amazing display of gold in the air, just as though someone had sprinkled glitter in the air ... so that's where the saying comes from ...

Everything is possible, MJ

[TrafficProducer]

I have been at the end of the rainbow ... it happens when you are in just the right spot between the sun and the rain ... and there is an amazing display of gold in the air, just as though someone had sprinkled glitter in the air ... so that's where the saying comes from ...

I'd love to see some pictures

[mjtaylor]

I would love to show you what I saw ... it happened for no more than a few seconds ... the rainbow entered the car while I was driving and filled the dash with color and what looked like gold glitter in the air ... I have heard others report the same thing so I guess I am not crazy ... at least not on this count.

Here is a similar account from someone else I found just now.

MJ

[TrafficProducer]

Not criticising you:0 Rainbow Gold; Sound like an optical illusion… Just this is what like Google Page Rank is as well an illusion.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by TrafficProducer

Not criticising you:0 Rainbow Gold; Sound like an optical illusion… Just this is what like Google Page Rank is as well an illusion.

I don't feel criticized in the least, but thanks for the sensitivity ... both the rainbow and the gold at the end thereof are, indeed, optical illusions ... PageRank, however, is part of how Google determines placement for a given query, if only a small part, nonetheless a part and that's not illusory, however elusive it may be. ;D

And while I am not obsessive about PR, it is so integral to Google, that it is worthy of my attention.

Google states: "For search results, relevance and ranking is automatically determined by over 100 factors, including Google's patented PageRank algorithm." (From: Google AdWords: Learning Center). In fact, whether we like it or not, PageRank - giving weight to pages based on a scholastic citation model - was the genesis for the search engine itself.

On the topic of PR, I think this GoogleAnswers page has some relevance:
Google Answers: My Page Rank

Off to chase another rainbow, MJ

[langard]

So if you have great PageRank and terrible RI standing I guess your glass is either 1/100th full or 99% empty, depending upon how you choose to look at it. Conversely, I can almost guarantee you that anybody whose site occupies a top ten rank in Google's RI for a few hundred different keyword combinations couldn't care less if the PageRank 'Gas Gauge' for their pages is permanently grey.

I still have a hard time believing that chasing PageRank is anything more than a waste of time and effort that could be better spent improving the 'other' 99 parts of the Google algorithm.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by langard

So if you have great PageRank and terrible RI standing I guess your glass is either 1/100th full or 99% empty, depending upon how you choose to look at it. Conversely, I can almost guarantee you that anybody whose site occupies a top ten rank in Google's RI for a few hundred different keyword combinations couldn't care less if the PageRank 'Gas Gauge' for their pages is permanently grey.

I still have a hard time believing that chasing PageRank is anything more than a waste of time and effort that could be better spent improving the 'other' 99 parts of the Google algorithm.

Show me a well ranked site without it.

Not sure what RI stands for, but Ranking Index, perhaps? Notwithstanding my quote above, it is not likely that PageRank is merely one of 100 factors. It is actually the premise on which Google was founded, and I am doubtful that you can show me a site that is ranking highly without PR. Quality, relevant incoming links are a large part of 99% of all sites in the top 5 positions and quality links invariably bring PR.

Links are critical - internal, external, incoming and outgoing, the anchor text and the surrounding text - these are some of the very heavily weighted of the 100 factors. I cannot recall a site that disproved that.

If PR were only one of 100 factors, Google would have already done away with it, but like it or not, this patented system is central to Google search. It is not PR we must chase, but the right inbound links. PR comes with it and just one gauge of the success of your link development.

Happy Linking, MJ

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Show me a well ranked site without it.

If your talking about toolbar PR MJ, I am sure me and many others can show you hundreds. PR is exported only 3-4 times a year so plenty of website rank well without any.

This is very easy to see in new articles that get picked up quickly.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by incrediblehelp

If your talking about toolbar PR MJ, I am sure me and many others can show you hundreds. PR is exported only 3-4 times a year so plenty of website rank well without any.

This is very easy to see in new articles that get picked up quickly.

I am not talking about toolbar PR ... I am well aware of the update patterns ... and it is easy enough to gauge from other pages on a site what a new cached page's PR is ...

What I said was: Show me a well ranked site without it. Not a well ranked page.

Cheers, MJ

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

What I said was: Show me a well ranked site without it. Not a well ranked page.

Ah-ha!

[gky45]

OK heres a question about PR and outbound links. I just read a posting on Andy Beards Blog how the blogroll on his blog was killing his PR. Now OK we all like to link outside to other sites from Blogs but hwo can we make up for this whole concept of PR leakage.

How many additional inbound links am I going to have get to make up for the loss of PR that one outbound gives me?

Anyone got any clues?

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by gky45

OK heres a question about PR and outbound links. I just read a posting on Andy Beards Blog how the blogroll on his blog was killing his PR. Now OK we all like to link outside to other sites from Blogs but hwo can we make up for this whole concept of PR leakage.

How many additional inbound links am I going to have get to make up for the loss of PR that one outbound gives me?

Anyone got any clues?

I dont buy it. As long as the links are relevant.

[gky45]

Yes but its a simple mathematical concept. If for example I have a web page that starts with a PR of x and I have several outbound links (b) on it then the overall value of my page is going to x - (b * number of outbound links). What we don't know is how much PR leakage figure (b) is and how much damage it does. If say each outbound link was 1% of the original page rank and I have 10 outbounds then my new page rank basically is going to be worth 90% of my old one etc.

My question was, say I have a PR4 page and I have 10 outbound links then do I need to get at least an extra 10 similar inbounds to compensate for this "leakage"?

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by gky45

Yes but its a simple mathematical concept. If for example I have a web page that starts with a PR of x and I have several outbound links (b) on it then the overall value of my page is going to x - (b * number of outbound links). What we don't know is how much PR leakage figure (b) is and how much damage it does. If say each outbound link was 1% of the original page rank and I have 10 outbounds then my new page rank basically is going to be worth 90% of my old one etc.

My question was, say I have a PR4 page and I have 10 outbound links then do I need to get at least an extra 10 similar inbounds to compensate for this "leakage"?

Where in the world did these calculations come from? Their is so much more to PR than simple math.

[gky45]

Look all I am trying to get to the bottom of (and not getting very far it seems) is find out how much damage to PR does outbound links do (which it must if it is "passing on" pagerank) and what do we have to do to compensate for this.

Now I appreciate that there are a great number of other factors to do with Page Rank (some of which are way beyond our control) but I was just interested in the time being in this one. Now Andy Beard seems to have rough idea of the plot with regards to SEO and my concern was that if he feels that blogrolls on blogs leak PR then there must be a valid reason for his belief. Thats all

[incrediblehelp]

My point is I don't think you can quantify such a thing. Make sure your outbound links are relevant and do it fro your end users and you will be fine. We need to stop thinking about SE first and users second.

Here is the article that gky45 is speaking of if interested:

How a Blogroll can kill your Pagerank | Andy Beard - Niche Marketing

Like I said before I am not a big fan of "hording PR" or limiting when I link for SE reasons only. It doesn't make sense to.

[Andy Beard]

I am not a big fan of "hording PR" either, I am a fan of cultivating it, or not wasting it on links that have no real purpose.

That particular site had 200-300 sitewide, SE readable links to every news outlet under the sun, and maybe 10 internal links per page.

I written not only against things like excessive blogrolls, but also things like Top Commentators plugins.

There are 1000s of blogs in the same situation. 100+ external links on a page, and very few internal links.

I understand that pagerank is only one, and possibly minor factor for ranking, but it certainly helps for indexing and monetization.

You might find this interesting, but I haven't yet got a demonstration site up and running incorporating all of the features.
Wordpress SEO Masterclass For Competitive Niches | Andy Beard - Niche Marketing

[incrediblehelp]

Originally Posted by Andy Beard

I am not a big fan of "hording PR" either, I am a fan of cultivating it, or not wasting it on links that have no real purpose.

That particular site had 200-300 sitewide, SE readable links to every news outlet under the sun, and maybe 10 internal links per page.

I written not only against things like excessive blogrolls, but also things like Top Commentators plugins.

There are 1000s of blogs in the same situation. 100+ external links on a page, and very few internal links.

I understand that pagerank is only one, and possibly minor factor for ranking, but it certainly helps for indexing and monetization.

You might find this interesting, but I haven't yet got a demonstration site up and running incorporating all of the features.
Wordpress SEO Masterclass For Competitive Niches | Andy Beard - Niche Marketing

Yes that does seem somewhat excessive, but as you might understand that blogrolls in general was not the issue. The issue is you have 200-300 links going out to various sources (relevant and unrelevant) on every page of your blog. Of course this can be an issue, but the blogroll itself is not.

[Andy Beard]

It depends on which of the known and unknown ranking factors you are looking at.

Pagerank is calculated based upon multiple iterations, so taken in isolation internal links to relevant content have a huge amount of weight.

Some sites rank highly in search despite minimal term specific links from external sources based upon the mass of pages they have accumulated on their various virtual real estate.

If good internal linking structure wasn't important, you wouldn't see sites with poor linking structure with internal pages PR5, but their home page is still PR2 after the last update.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by Andy Beard

Pagerank is calculated based upon multiple iterations, so taken in isolation internal links to relevant content have a huge amount of weight.

It is not quite clear to me what you are saying -- I get that PR is calculated more than once (multiple iterations) but then you lost me ...

Originally Posted by Andy Beard

Some sites rank highly in search despite minimal term specific links from external sources based upon the mass of pages they have accumulated on their various virtual real estate.

I *think* you are saying that some sites rank well with few inbound links because they have a lot of content?

You might be too erudite for my own good, Andy.

Just hoping for more clarity.

And more than that: specificity. I would love to see an example or have a diagram of various internal linking structures and their effect.

MJ

[Andy Beard]

The previous link gives you some idea, as would Revenge of the Mininet, at least for basic understanding. It is an old book, 2004 but available for free.

Obviously algorithms change over time, and how much pagerank is passed from various parts of a page is also difficult to determine - sitewide sidebar links are said to be discounted heavily, as might comments. Does that mean more gets directed to content?
What happens if the sidebars only contain relevant links and change based upon the categorization of an article?

As to sites ranking based upon weight of content, think of sites like Amazon, Ebay, Shopping.com etc.

Would people be more inclined to link to IMDB or Amazon?

In many ways when Amazon bought IMDB, they were buying links, because before that they were not inclined to receive product related links.
If they were ranking for a particular title, it was based upon internal linking structure giving a title relevance.

1000s of bloggers link to CNN daily, but they would be unlikely to link to Amazon unless it was an affiliate link.

[tomcatuk]

Originally Posted by gky45

Look all I am trying to get to the bottom of (and not getting very far it seems) is find out how much damage to PR does outbound links do (which it must if it is "passing on" pagerank) and what do we have to do to compensate for this.

Is there any evidence to back this up? This goes right against my limited understanding of the relationship between PR and outbound links. It never occurred to me that you could reduce your PR by simply linking out other than:

Linking to bad pages - would have a negative effect (and rightly so).
Linking to quality pages - some say this should have a POSITIVE effect on PR. I struggle with that idea though - anyone can link to quality pages, so why would Google "reward" a page for doing it.

My understanding is that yes, your page linking to another page adds pagerank to the receiving page, but that doesn't mean it reduces the PR of the page linking out.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by tomcatuk

My understanding is that yes, your page linking to another page adds pagerank to the receiving page, but that doesn't mean it reduces the PR of the page linking out.

I agree!

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by tomcatuk

Is there any evidence to back this up? This goes right against my limited understanding of the relationship between PR and outbound links. It never occurred to me that you could reduce your PR by simply linking out other than:

<snip>

My understanding is that yes, your page linking to another page adds pagerank to the receiving page, but that doesn't mean it reduces the PR of the page linking out.

Well, let's simplify this a little: we know(or believe we do) that the PR on a page is divided (albeit not equally) between the links off the page (whether internal or external) ... so a link off site *will* carry some portion of that PR to the off site page. Whatever PR goes off site is not sent to any other pages on the originating site. So, that *does* dliute the PR passed internally and therefore could dilute the PR on the originating page.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about this unless I was linking out to a very large number of sites and didn't have a fairly substantial number of backlinks to balance that. But I do believe linking out *does* leak PR.

Afraid that wasn't as simple as I meant it to be ... MJ

[Webnauts]

To the statement of Tomcatuk I said above that I agree. It is true that if a page adds PR to the another site, but does not mean that it reduces the PR of the linking out page.

BUT! If you give an outbound link to another site, then your site's (not page) average PR will decrease, because you do not keep your vote "in house" as it were).

But again: The details of the decrease will depend on the details of your linking schema.

So outbound links can be great or evil as inbound links too.

Just my two... you know what.

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

To the statement of Tomcatuk I said above that I agree. It is true that if a page adds PR to the another site, but does not mean that it reduces the PR of the linking out page.

BUT! If you give an outbound link to another site, then your site's (not page) average PR will decrease, because you do not keep your vote "in house" as it were).

Right; it does not directly reduce the PR of the page, but as you go on to say, it can reduce the average PR of the site, which very well could decrease the PR of that page ... so, although it is indirect those outbound links can reduce the PR of the page giving 'em away.

Originally Posted by Webnauts

But again: The details of the decrease will depend on the details of your linking schema.

Of course, in the normal schema ( )of things that PR decrease is usually made up by all the other sites linking back, or the clever internal linking structure of the same site. Hmm, now there's a topic for a thread! Internal linking strategies!

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Just my two... you know what.

Oh, yes, we know what!

Cheers, MJ

[tomcatuk]

Yikes! Well, not really yikes. If I'm linking to someone, it's for a reason. I suppose "giving a bit back" to a cause (read site) that I deem worthy is good for my net karma.

Many thanks mjtaylor & webnauts for an explanation that I not only understand, but that actually makes logical sense (so much of SEO doesn't seem to).

Now I understand why there are directories that want to use nofollow, or redirects on outbounds. Not that I think they should - but now I understand why they see it as something they should do to protect their own PR.

[coolguy27]

How Often Does The Google Dance Happen?

" The name "Google Dance" was in the past used to describe the period that a major index update of the Google search engine are being implemented. These major Google index update occured on average every 36 days or 10 times per year. It was easiest be identified by significant changes in search results, and by an updating of Google's cache of all indexed pages. These changes would be evident from one minute to the next. But the update did not proceed as a switch from one index to another like the flip of a switch. In fact, it took several days to finish the complete update of the index.

Because Google, like every other search engine, depends on their customers knowing that they deliver authoritative reliable results 24 hours of the day, seven days a week, updates pose a serious issue. They can not shut down for maintenance and they cannot afford to go offline for even one minute. Hence, we had the Dance. Every search engine goes through it, some more or less often than Google. However, it is only because of Google's reach that we pay attention to its rebuild more than that of any other engine..." quoted from source..

As of today Google Dance is always happening due to regular updates of Googles SERP algo....That's why you see your ranking position and you don't...

Meaning the ranking fluctuates... Some still remain in their ranking because they do some strategies to survive a Google dance...

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by mjtaylor

Hmm, now there's a topic for a thread! Internal linking strategies!

MJ, then start a thread and PM me the link. I would be interested to see what we can come up with.

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by tomcatuk

Now I understand why there are directories that want to use nofollow, or redirects on outbounds. Not that I think they should - but now I understand why they see it as something they should do to protect their own PR.

Such directories suck!!!

If they use the nofollow attribute means that for them my site has no value from their point of view. The nofollow attribute is not created for such purposes anyway. The main idea was to fight blog spamming. Though it is still ok to be used in certain circumstances, like for affiliate links or links which are irrelevant to your sites content web sites. Also, if they use other techniques like redirects on outbounds it is not appropriate, as their intention to sell PR. They tell that if you pay, then the nofollow attribute will be removed.

And that is not the purpose of PageRank!!!

Such directories I already began reporting them to Google. If you know any, do me a favor and PM me them.

Just my... you know what.

[TrafficProducer]

Thank to Coolguy27

Some issue could also may be because of, newish:-
google universal search - Google Search

[marketstrat]

thanks for links dear...

[mirza]

very useful thread thanks a lot.

[idansh]

What is a duplicate content and how can content be duplicated, does it mean it appears on differenct pages the same content ? please explain

[mjtaylor]

Duplicate content = the same text on two (or more) URLs.

How does it happen? Lots of ways - there are what'sd called "scraper sites" which are sites full of content scraped from other websites and set up for Adsense. And there are more innocuous (seemingly) instances.

For example, I manage several fishing sites and some local directories or travel sites are in the habit of borrowing the content of fishing charter home pages so they can attract the business and get a referral from the captain. That might be okay if it didn't potentially trip a duplicate content filter.

Hope that helps ...

MJ

[Webnauts]

Originally Posted by idansh

What is a duplicate content and how can content be duplicated, does it mean it appears on differenct pages the same content ? please explain

Originally Posted by google

Duplicate content generally refers to substantive blocks of content within or across domains that either completely match other content or are appreciably similar.

More about see here: Webmaster Help Center - Duplicate content

[mamola]

Jeez Idansh, how great is your Page???

MyLiveSearch beta Google Website positioning, SEO Books, Search Engine placement, Free SEO Tools,Webmaster forum, PageRank, SERPS, SERP

great stuff, nice one

[full house]

Originally Posted by Webnauts

Pages checked so far:

Accessibility, SEO, & Usability Testing & Consulting Company PR6 to PR7
Accessibility, SEO, & Usability Testing & Consulting Company PR5 to PR7
Web Accessibility, SEO & Usability Resources PR6 (same)
Webnauts Net - Accessibility, SEO and Usability PR6 (same)
Accessibility Testing PR6 (same)
Why SEO should be important to you PR6 (same)
About Us - Web Accessibility, SEO & Usability Consultants PR6 (same)
Training Course Enrollment Form PR6 (same)
On-site SEO Training Seminar PR6 (same)
The need for accessibility PR7 to PR6
Skip to Main Content Links are Important PR7 to PR6

Accessibility, SEO, & Usability Testing & Consulting Company PR0 to PR2
Webnauts Net Discussion Forums (Powered by Invision Power Board) PR5 to PR6
Webnauts Net Blog PR4 to PR6

Is the update over?

WOW!How did you do that!?

[Webnauts]

http://forums.digitalpoint.com/showpost.php?p=4391628&postcount=58

[full house]

so you mean this

shouldn’t expect a PR Update soon

that what you did to get all those amazing PR fast!?

[freediver]

Google ranks based on quantity (which is page rank - number of quality links pointing to your site) and quality (relevancy or content quality). PR is important as it shows your web exposure, but in order to rank well on search you need quality.

[dillontim]

Hi people,

I am new here. Just wanna ask how often does google update pagerank?

By the way, if any of you guys love page rank buttons and scripts, check out this site. It has a wide collection of free page rank buttons.

site - Free Page Rank Button and Script


Cheers

[mjtaylor]

Originally Posted by dillontim

Hi people,

I am new here. Just wanna ask how often does google update pagerank?

Hmm, that's a question that has been asked many times ... and next time you want to ask a question , you might want to search and see if it's been answered first ...

Originally Posted by dillontim

By the way, if any of you guys love page rank buttons and scripts, check out this site. It has a wide collection of free page rank buttons.

site - Free Page Rank Button and Script


Cheers

Is that *your* site?

I wondered if your post was simply self promotion ... as I note that all of your posts do point to that website ... but assuming not for a moment, here's how to find other threads on a topic. There is a search feature on WPW, but it isn't always as efficient as a Google search for: site:webproworld.com update page rank ...

The answer is: Google used to update (export PR to the toolbar) every 4 or so months, but hasn't done so since April.

However, it's also important to know that Google actually updates PR daily ... or perhaps in real time ... but it doesn't report it through the tool bar.



Cheers, MJ

[Haze]

Nice work webnauts!
Just had a similar experience when a brand new site got a 4 the very first day..
Mariah Boats Spain, Mariah Boats Showroom, Sale, service and storage.
Ciao Haze

[Webnauts]

Google are updating their PageRank Toolbar. More: Google PageRank Update & Link Selling

[tomcatuk]

Are we sure about this? I haven't noticed anything. I just ran Hazes site through a TBPR checker that pools results from multiple data centres and they ALL show PR 4. I'd be surprised if that many data centres were updated within two days - usually after a PR update it takes ages for all the DC's to mirror the new data.