Key Word Stuffing Trouble??

[who67]

Hi I just joined this forum today mainly because my website rankings have tanked lately on google and I need answers.

Although I am still listed in Google I have lost ground on my main key words such as work from home and business opportunities. I'm wondering how I can be in the top 10 one month and gone completely the next. It has been brought to my attention that you can be penalized for over optimization which is what I think has happened.

My question is if I cut down on the number of times a specific Key word appears on my site can I possibly get my sit back in the top 10 or once a site has been penalized for a certain keyword is it impossible to to regain a good ranking again?

[Elite Skills]

Be logical.
Don't keyword spam, and you're okay. Google wants you to ignore it and work on your content.


Don't think it's always google. In order for you to have increased someone else had to have decreased. They want up. They do stuff. You go down. New competition enters.

It's just how it goes.

[smo]

Keyword is one of the many factors which can affect your ranking. Keyword stuff is not so important to get a better ranking.

Why you are thinking that because of keywords you have suffered?
Keep all your options open and start working.

[African-Safari]

It was my understanding that Google wasn't really concerned with the keywords meta.

I know that it's a more important factor with Yahoo and MSN, and the rule is not to repeat the same word more than 3 times.

Regards,
African Safari Guy

[greenkey]

IMO its unlikely that your keyword stuffing has caused the fall in SERPs I would look at other factors as being more influential. such as how often your content is updated and how much of a patern there is in your inbound links. However if you feel you have been down graded for your keyword density then reduce it and see if you come back up.

Its been my experience that Google doesnt hold a grudge with stuff like this, its part of the natural selection that goes on when algo changes take place. OK so the algo doesnt like what it used to, change it to get better results. Its very unlikely that you will be permanently penalised because your keyword density is high.

[who67]

Thanks Greenkey your post is very reassuring.Just what I needed to hear. I hope you are correct. now I need to get to work.

[yaqinter]

IMO, the site is just overoptimized. After the disastrous 2003/2004 Google updates that effectively killed a whole generation of Mom'n'Pop content sites, overoptimized websites actually began to get more traffic, while the content sites just dissolved into brokenness and 404s.

More direct affiliate sales sites began to over-optimize as Google began to slice the cake smaller for the little guy, and bigger for the big sites like Microsoft, Yahoo, & whoever.

Yes, Google gives millions of dollars worth of attention and love to their the main competitor companies - because they are big, and you get nothing because you are small.

That means that means Google can't analyse the content of your site.

Imagine if you were a schoolkid whose schoolteacher couldn't analyze your work, but gave you marks for presentation, and most of the marks given because other people mentioned your name.

The point is that the little guy died in 2003, and if you want to keep food in your family's bellies, then forget Google. And find another way of optimizing.

If you're not a cosy employee who has the time to sit and philosophise about sandbox theory, if you are a genuine starving owner-webmaster, then you need to find some other way to get visitors than a search engine.

For as long as search engines exist, - from a webmaster's perspective - they've made it harder and harder to optimize and get success for it.

If you accept that as valid, then it means that there will come a day when you can no longer get success for your optimization.

E

[greenkey]

WOW that sounds bitter!
Dont ever lose site of the fact that the very process of optimisation is an attempt to get the best search results, whatever the quality of your content. If only optimised sites got the best results then the web would be full of adverts. ITS GOOGLES JOB to weed out the over optiised sites in favour of those which have the best content. If you market on the internet (as I do) then you have to accept that it is a constant thing that you have to do, to continually refine and change your content and optimisation strategies.

If you stuck to traditional methods of marketing you wouldnt expect to pay for an advert in a magazine and that advert keep winning you new customers for the next 3 years. It has a finite time frame of usefulness. Just like an optimised page. If you expect to optimise your page once and then expect that page to get top results for the next 3 years this is completely unreasonable. There is no such thing as a free lunch. I actually think that by constantly changing the algo that determines results Google give little guys a chance of getting results. Otherwise the top places would always go to the website with the biggest optimisation budgets, which is not the case.

you said:
'find another way of optimising'

What other way? do you honestly believe that yahoo or MSN are any better than google for the little guy.
I don't. They are all the same, that is they all want to make as much money as possible. You just have to be prepared to play the game - and keep playing the game.

[andertoons]

Since we're on the subject of over-optimization, do you think this page is over the top?

Too much?

[charco]

I am a rank amateur who just happens to have a chemistry website (IB chemistry is a pre-university course taught around the world) -IB chemistry syllabus and revision notes - which was going ok on the second page of Google for the search term "IB Chemistry syllabus" and about position 200 for "IB chemistry" alone. I decided to "Optimise" the site (there are about 150 pages dedicated to IB chemistry so the content is irrefutable) and after the 'optimisation' the term "IB chemistry" has disappeared completely while a search for "IB chemistry syllabus" is about number 500!!

I have written to Google who tell me that it's normal for sites to move while others go up - the usual platitudes - a standard letter I guess.

A glance at the relevancy of many of the other sites is laughable - pdf files that do not load, sites that are closed etc. etc.

My crime? I don't know but I have some ideas.

I decided to standardise my site using templates and so each document had the same set of keywords. Now I don't know if this has anything to do with it but it's the only thing that I can think of.
It also meant that the title of each document was the same "IB Chemistry syllabus and notes".
My gut feeling is that this has penalised me as it looks like I have 150 + documents with the same title and keywords. I am in the process of changing it all but as it's just a hunch then I feel that I am groping a little in the dark.

Incidentally the site is no 1 on MSN search and 10 -11 on Yahoo for "IB Chemistry".

Anyone got any ideas?

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by andertoons

Since we're on the subject of over-optimization, do you think this page is over the top?

Too much?

cartoons in Page Elements
cartoons found 2 time(s) in 9 Title words (Density: 22.22%)
cartoons found 28 time(s) in 78 Keywords words (Density: 35.90%)
cartoons found 12 time(s) in 34 Description words (Density: 35.29%)
cartoons found 4 time(s) in 34 Headings words (Density: 11.76%)
cartoons NOT found in Alt tag (26 words)
cartoons found 30 time(s) in 153 Linktext words (Density: 19.61%)
cartoons found 1 time(s) in 11 Bold text words (Density: 9.09%)
cartoons found 13 time(s) in 43 Italic text words (Density: 30.23%)

As shown at:
http://www.ranks.nl/cgi-bin/ranksnl/...ider.cgi?lang=

I'd say 7% should be the maximum...

[cspelts]

Originally Posted by charco

the title of each document was the same "IB Chemistry syllabus and notes".
My gut feeling is that this has penalised me as it looks like I have 150 + documents with the same title and keywords.

charco, if you're short on time, just strip out the keywords. Most search engines ignore them anyway. I would focus on getting a unique title for each page as soon as possible, and deal with the keywords later, if at all.

[Katt]

I agree with greenkey... optimization is an ongoing process. Make a habit of doing a couple of hours of optimization once a month, or even better, once a week. Verify your links and your code (www.w3.org has a great link checker and code validator)then tweak your titles, headings and content. Add new content as often as possible. And keep adding inbound links, even though word is that these are less important than they used to be.

I work on optimization about 3 or 4 hours for each website every week. I keep tabs on my Google rankings, and when something drops way down, I watch it for a few weeks to see if it comes back up (it usually does). Only if it drops and stays dropped for several weeks do I make any changes. Sometimes the drop occurs because I made a stupid mistake. Sometimes I never figure out why. But this is no reason for me to just give up on Google - I get far too many referrals to just walk away from it!

[DrTandem1]

You ranking in the SERPs probably has very little to do with any optimization which has very little effect on any site. Many real estate listings including travel sites have fallen off the Google map. I don't know why. Possibly, because they are pushing their "local" results.

Anyway, Google has more than one server. You could probably call a friend on the other side of the country and have them look at Google at the same time you are for the same search term as you are using and they will see a different ranking in the SERPs. I did that with someone just a few miles away in another county and the SERPs were different for the exact same search term.

[IIxxVADERxxII]

I disagree. Optimization should not be an on going process. I beleive optimization begins with design and implementation. If you design a garbage site, you will get garbage ranking. Although in Google this seems to be the opposite as it seems the vast majority of top ranking sites in Google are garbage sites.

I can't say this enough: The internet is too vast to think any one of us are on some sort of Google merrit system. Blame the "experts" for all the hype surrounding this one. Because for the most part thats all Google is. A lot of hype and very little relevancy. This is the most manipulated search engine ever created folks.

Google changes their minds more than their employees change their underwear. From a developers standpoint, I think Google is a joke. They deserve no respect from me or other developers. People need to move on and stop being sucked into the hype. If you have to rely on Google. I guarantee you should anticipate problems.

I have said Google so much I think I need to go puke now.

Take care.

[rossmcd]

THis one's for CHarco.

You have the PERFECT opportunity with Google to do very well from traffic. If you have 150 high-content pages Google will love you - so here's what you are doing wrong: Indeed it is the universal keywords you are using. If you can't be bothered doing anything else, remove ALL your title and descriptions (if they are all the same) and as long as you are using the H1 tag in the titles of all those content-unique pages underneath the index your site will do very well from all the residual results from unique and less common terms contained WITHIN the syllabus. Add keywords and description to just your index and you will see - Google will love you again!

[rossmcd]

THis one's for CHarco.

You have the PERFECT opportunity with Google to do very well from traffic. If you have 150 high-content pages Google will love you - so here's what you are doing wrong: Indeed it is the universal keywords you are using. If you can't be bothered doing anything else, remove ALL your title and descriptions (if they are all the same) and as long as you are using the H1 tag in the titles of all those content-unique pages underneath the index your site will do very well from all the residual results from unique and less common terms contained WITHIN the syllabus. Add keywords and description to just your index and you will see - Google will love you again!

[DrTandem1]

Whether you like Google or not, the fact is the majority of searchers use them. Now, while I think search engines have their place in your marketing efforts, I think too many people put all of their marketing effort into them.

I agree, that Google's relevance regarding searches has left me dissatisfied recently. I therefore have turned to Yahoo for a different perspective on those occasions. Yahoo/MSN seem to be able to react more quickly to the changes with regards to sites.

Keywords, relevancy, coding, SEO, etc. has little to do with your ranking on Google. Want proof? Search Google for "diamond ring" minus the quotes. Then look at the #1 listing in the SERPs. Especially, look at its coding and then search it for the keywords used in the search. Surprised? I'm not. Don't waste time with SEO for Google and don't confuse external inbound links with optimization.

[IIxxVADERxxII]

Originally Posted by DrTandem1

Whether you like Google or not, the fact is the majority of searchers use them. Now, while I think search engines have their place in your marketing efforts, I think too many people put all of their marketing effort into them.

I agree, that Google's relevance regarding searches has left me dissatisfied recently. I therefore have turned to Yahoo for a different perspective on those occasions. Yahoo/MSN seem to be able to react more quickly to the changes with regards to sites.

Keywords, relevancy, coding, SEO, etc. has little to do with your ranking on Google. Want proof? Search Google for "diamond ring" minus the quotes. Then look at the #1 listing in the SERPs. Especially, look at its coding and then search it for the keywords used in the search. Surprised? I'm not. Don't waste time with SEO for Google and don't confuse external inbound links with optimization.

Diamond appears 26 times on that one page. Although rings appears NEVER = relevancy means nothing to Google = Google themeselves go against the very foundation of what made them a successful search engine, relevant results. Not manipulation.

If you want a listing similar to this in Google. You will have to play the Google game. Personally, I dont play games and like I said earlier concider Google a big joke for internet marketing. Search engines do not make or break businesses online. If this is the case and you are relying on Google, you are simply an extention of Google. You need to make a presence for yourself and break away.

I can't say this enough: The internet is too vast to think any one of us are on some sort of Google merrit system. SEO is by far the easiest part of my job as a developer. It's not nearly as complicated or difficult as so many think or are lead to beleive.

Again, folks will tell you anything and everything under the sun. The fact is that less than 2% of ALL internet traffic comes from search engines. Good word of mouth networking and direct hits are the best source of high ROI traffic, PERIOD. Think of having a #1 listing as bragging rights or placing a feather in your cap. A search engines job is to expose you to INFORMATION, OPTIONS and ALTERNATIVES. Google does a terrible job of this while MSN and Yahoo with MSN leading the way are doing a hugely greater job of this. If Search engines are important to you, focus on MSN and Yahoo placement and less on Google. Regardless of what anyone says. Yahoo and MSN are the most trafficed websites with Google in at #3 according to Alexa.com

[DrTandem1]

Originally Posted by IIxxVADERxxII

Diamond appears 26 times on that one page. Although rings appears NEVER = relevancy means nothing to Google = Google themeselves go against the very foundation of what made them a successful search engine, relevant results. Not manipulation.

Again, folks will tell you anything and everything under the sun. The fact is that less than 2% of ALL internet traffic comes from search engines. Good word of mouth networking and direct hits are the best source of high ROI traffic, PERIOD.

Agreed, that is not relevancy. The reason this site is #1 in Google is that there are thousands of links pointing to it. This same site is high on Yahoo as well for the same terms.

Time after time I have read from so-called experts that coding and optimizing is important. Yes, the word "diamond" can be found 26 times doing a simple word count on the source code. However, ten of those appearances are in the meta keywords, which most agree have little value with Google. Not only that, but the true <head> section is found within the body tags! Therefore, it is simply doubtful that Google's algorithm can make the giant leap in logic that we must be searching for diamond rings, although "diamond ring" is not found in the content. Why not diamond mines, diamond necklaces, etc.?

Please, tell me, what SEO would code a page like this? None. A decent webmaster wouldn't even code a page like this. You have to go through 125 lines of the code before the word "diamond" is found, and that's in the code for the drop-down menu! The title tag isn't found until line 292! Then, there is over a hundred more lines of code, before "diamond" is found, and that's in an alt attribute of an image tag.

This shows me that Google has one true test of relevancy, and that is external inbound links. Want more proof that SEO is bunk? Look up "seo" (minus the quotes) on Google. A seo company that is incorporated that "specializes" in this is found about #4. They have fallen from #1, recently. In any event, they have sp@mmed the term "seo" about 135 times through out their Home page's source code. They have done the same with "search engine optimization" about 60+ times. Has Google penalized them? No. Why are they still so high? Because they have literally MILLIONS of links pointing toward their site.

Save your time, energy and money. SEO is hocus-pocus nonsense.

[IIxxVADERxxII]

Originally Posted by DrTandem1

Save your time, energy and money. SEO is hocus-pocus nonsense.

Or rather Save your time, energy and money. Google SEO is hocus-pocus nonsense.

MSN and Yahoo will actually respect good work. Not just manipulation and a dollar sign or purchased links. So many have spent hundreds and thousands on links thinking they are on a Google merrit system. "I need page rank" kind of deal. You will find sites in MSN and Yahoo you would have never had a chance to see in Google because they say it's not a good, relevant result. LOL! Page rank is a Joke. It takes other search engines and developers like myself to show everyone the real deal. You can have a number one listing in Yahoo or MSN and be NOWHERE in Google. If this was a race, Google would have been left in the dust.