Not GAGA over GOOGLE anymore...

[Jason Tor]

Here is my opinion on google:



I'm tired of google, they are becoming increasingly difficult to deal with, they're not consistent anymore. One day this site is on top, the next day that site is on top. I really believe they expect way to much. I think if google had their way (and right now they do) they wouldn't be happy until everyone with a website is sitting in front of their computer doing nothing but trying to get in google's top results.

I'm sick of it, I get far better and MORE RELEVANT traffic from MSN and YAHOO then I ever have from google. Since I stopped playing the google game and started optimizing for YAHOO and MSN I've been very busy. I laugh at google's pagerank now (and you can bet google is sitting back laughing also) this coming from someone who at one time not long ago was obsessed with it.

google is getting to big to fast, firing people because their to old or because they have an opinion and want to share it - they have become the dictator of the internet - I for one have lost any and all faith in googles ability to be consistent with their search results or to even run a fair and honest company.

Jason Tor (soon to be banned from google I'm sure)

[jwm5411]

Jason, I agree 100%. I admire your courage...bet a lot of people are afraid to post to this thread. You put into words, what a lot of us are thinking.
Why try to optimize for Google. I've got a great website loaded with content and I don't try to trick up anything. I have many thousands of visitors per month and almost none come from Google.
We are one of two sites that sell Sebring products online...both sites are not listed on the first page...though we have been over the last two years. The sites that are there now, for the most part, link to my site and have nothing directly to do with Sebring Hair products. What ever Google has done to the algo, in my opinion has made it less accurate.
We are listed at the top for all our keywords in Yahoo! and MSN. We get all the traffic we need from these search engines.
I agree completely with you...Google is too inconsistent to pay much attention too...certainly by SEO managers and increasingly by anyone who needs accurate search results.

John(If banned from Google, life will go on.)

[Jason Tor]

I'm glad someone else shares my opinion about google, and will say it!

I see more then a few have read the thread but only one has posted, thanks John!

Come on now, I can't even get a laugh about my image of Larry as a dictator? Should I be worried that google will show up at my house and take me away to the infamous sandbox?

Jason Tor

[rivux]

Google isn't overly concerned about webmasters and they shouldn't be. They care about the search results and their users, webmasters are just a pain in the ass. All this whining that people do about Google not caring about its webmaster is starting to get tiresome. Google like any search engine cares about relevant results and I hate to be break the news to ya, but the web is so flooded with content that you could pick hundreds of pages to show up on the front page for most keywords and the user would still be happy.

Just because Site A bounces around from 2nd to 19th to 5th means jackshit to the users (the people Google needs to care about). The user just cares that if they type in their keywords they get back the info they want. If it means you supplying or one of the hundreds of other sites supplying it, the user doesn't care (and neither does Google)

[Jason Tor]

Hey rivux,

I AM A USER! AND I'M TIRED OF THEIR INCONSISTENT RESULTS.

And another thing, google better be concerned about the people who make the 8 billion pages they crawl. If you really think google doesn't care about webmasters then you need to put down the pipe, why do you think they change their algo so often? Wake up man!

And you really think it's no big deal that site A goes from page 1 to page 19? So I'm only allowed to find site A every once in awhile? That doesn't even make sense. Stop kissing googles butt and start thinking for yourself. It always amazes me how fierce people will defend google, tell me what's so special about a search engine that changes their results more then most people change their underwear.


Try again rivux, maybe without the profanity next time..

Jason Tor

[rivux]

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

I AM A USER! AND I'M TIRED OF THEIR INCONSISTENT RESULTS.

Your original post was entirely about being a webmaster, but if you want to change your story now just to try and prove a point, fine with me.

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

And another thing, google better be concerned about the people who make the 8 billion pages they crawl. If you really think google doesn't care about webmasters then you need to put down the pipe, why do you think they change their algo so often? Wake up man!

They change their algo because of people trying to manipulate their results, which is a big difference from caring about wembasters in the positive sense. If you don't like how they do business, then use the robots.txt file and don't let them crawl your site, it's not like we are splitting atoms here.

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

And you really think it's no big deal that site A goes from page 1 to page 19? So I'm only allowed to find site A every once in awhile? That doesn't even make sense.

No I don't think its a big deal if a page bounces around the SERPS, if the end user finds the info they are looking for who cares what site serves it. Now if you are looking for a particuilar site as you said "So I'm only allowed to find site A every once in awhile?" then thats another matter, Google is pretty good at showing a site near the top if you search for its name. But we aren't talking about finding specific sites we are talking about finding general information (web hosting, green alligators), which means lots of sites have that info. If you want to revisit a site, bookmark it, write it down, memorize it, whatever, but its not googles concern to always have it in the same place.

If a site ranks on the 10th page, and then the next time you search on the 8th page, and then the 3rd time you search its on the 6th page, are you going to be pissed off cuz its not on the same page everytime? Of course not, to use your words "that doesn't even make sense". A page moving up and down in the serps is natural, in fact moving up is the goal of every webmaster, hardly something to be upset about.

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

Stop kissing googles butt and start thinking for yourself. It always amazes me how fierce people will defend google, tell me what's so special about a search engine that changes their results more then most people change their underwear.

Im defending Googles right to do business as they see fit, and if that means moving sites around the SERPs then thats their call, they don't owe you or any other webmaster a single thing. Like I said above, if you don't want them to index you, just use the meta tags or robots.txt file and stop whining about how they operate. You seem like the kind of guy who would have sided with SearchKing and their lawsuit against Google, you people baffle me.

As for kissing butt and not thinking for myself, those comments honestly made me laugh out loud. You either have a wicked sense of humour, or are legally retarded. Im hoping for the former but willing to accept the latter.

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

Try again rivux, maybe without the profanity next time..

The 'profanity' was aimed at the users feelings not at you, but if you are that sensitive to 'big people' words then I will filter them for you from now on.


Try again Jason Tor, how about with some logic this time.

[funbiz]

Just because Site A bounces around from 2nd to 19th to 5th means jackshit to the users (the people Google needs to care about). The user just cares that if they type in their keywords they get back the info they want. If it means you supplying or one of the hundreds of other sites supplying it, the user doesn't care (and neither does Google)

The problems (for some) are that people are not getting back the info they want!

[cbp]

Despite sites bouncing around, I have never had a problem finding whatever I want searching via Google.

CBP

[RichardS]

Jason I tend to be leaning your way. One thing I am sure you are aware of is the "Salt Factor". Everything should be taken with a grain of salt, even me, or a chaser or shooter.
My wife and I are in the Real Estate business and have been doing well through internet sales. A majority coming from MSN and yahoo. Yes over time I have been Chasing the elusive Google creature. I have managed to keep in the top 20 over the past 3 years. Every now and then Google will reshuffle the deck, stick me to number seventy for 6-8 hours and then I'm back up to number 15 or so out of 40,000.
What does all that mean, hell I don't know. Some shoe salesmen/shoestores only market and sell shoes to the black community and make a very nice living. So if your tooling for MSN and Yahoo more power to ya brother. When your swingin ten below the knee on MSN and yahoo then refocus on Google monster.
Me I'm obsessive compulsive. Hell I'm swingin ten below on yahoo and MSN (top five multiple keyword searches) and battle Google from sun up to bed time. But the day will come, yes that day will come, when yes I am again in the top 3 on Google and then I will truly be able to say... HAAAAAAA HA HA HA HA!!!
But until such time I skulk around message boards the same as you looking for scraps and listening to piles.



Cheers




RS

[Jason Tor]

Listen rivux,

let me make myself clear,

I am a user and a webmaster and over the last several months (if not more) I have become tired of their inconsistent results weather YOU like it or not. And that's about all your worth, except for the "big peoples words" that's just out of respect for everyone else that reads the forum.

Believe me rivux I have some "big people words for you". You can ramble on and on all you like, the fact is google is becoming extremely inconsistent. Now maybe their adjusting their algo and it's taking awhile, maybe when their done everyone will find exactly what their looking for the first time they try and we will all drop to our knees and thank the google gods but I highly doubt it.

I've been searching google from the beginning, I still search google, their toolbar is still installed, but their fading fast and if they don't do something their not going to be king of rivux world much longer. I'm in love with adwords and will defend it to the death, but the more they concentrate on ppc, gmail, desktop search etc.. the worse their natural listings get. Defend them all you want rivux the fact is, Yahoo and MSN aren't just catching up...google is falling behind.

Now as for me either being retarded(no offence to anyone) or having a "wicked" since of humor... I do feel retarded searching google at times and from my image of Larry Page as a dictator I do have a since of humor however it hasn't been "wicked" since I was in junior high which is the last time I used that word.

If you can't handle someone else having an opinion about google and writing it down maybe you should go work for them, sounds like you would fit right in.

CBP - I don't have a problem finding what I want on google either...it just takes me twice as long. P.S. I'm still waiting on DMOZ j/k.

RichardS, I'm with you. Over the past 3 years things were good - over the past several months things have NOT been so good. Google is falling behind and it doesn't seem like they are focusing on what got them to the top to begin with.

Funbiz is correct, people are not getting the results they want. Now before you go off rivux - the average surfer that gets home from a hard day's work doesn't really care what results they get...until they are actually looking for something specific...this is where google is falling behind.

But this is just my opinion, it's a good thing I don't work for google or they would fire me for even having an one.

Jason Tor

[MarcieZoob]

I used to use Google exclusively for organic searches but I too have noticed over the past few months that the results lean more toward link farms, directories and spam sites. I can tell from the description of the organic listing that it's not at all what I'm looking for.

I'm using Yahoo more than before but I still have Google toolbar so I can toggle back and forth to search on both and compare results. I tend to follow the Yahoo links since I get served actual web sites offering what I'm searching for, not a list of sites that are more links (and more crap) for me to weed through.

Just my coupla cents...

[rivux]

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

I am a user and a webmaster and over the last several months (if not more) I have become tired of their inconsistent results weather YOU like it or not. And that's about all your worth, except for the "big peoples words" that's just out of respect for everyone else that reads the forum.

Im going to quote you for a second since it seems like you forgot what you originally said. Which I might add was what my first comments were based on, since thats how forums work, you say something, I reply to it, etc.

I really believe they expect way to much. I think if google had their way (and right now they do) they wouldn't be happy until everyone with a website is sitting in front of their computer doing nothing but trying to get in google's top results.

I'm sick of it, I get far better and MORE RELEVANT traffic from MSN and YAHOO then I ever have from google. Since I stopped playing the google game and started optimizing for YAHOO and MSN I've been very busy.

Both of those comments were from a webmasters point of you, which is why I told you to stop whining about being a webmaster and not liking Google. I made no mention of whether the results are good from a users point of view because that wasn't what our conversation was about. Now if we want to change focus Im all for it, but don't try to place my comments into a context they don't belong.

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

If you can't handle someone else having an opinion about google and writing it down maybe you should go work for them, sounds like you would fit right in.

At what point did I say you couldn't have your opinion, it seems you are the one with the big issue of others having an opinion since as soon as I disagreed with yours, you started on the personal attacks. You can have your opinion, its great, Im excited for you.


I will summarize my position because I get the feeling you don't like reading long paragraphs.

1. Googles results aren't perfect.
2. If you don't like your site bouncing around, stop google from indexing it.
3. SE's care about users not webmasters, deal with it.

Thats about it, I agree with most your points, I just told you to stop whining about having to spend so much time trying to optimize for their results.

[RichardS]

[quote="rivux"]

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

I will summarize my position because I get the feeling you don't like reading long paragraphs.

1. Googles results aren't perfect.
2. If you don't like your site bouncing around, stop google from indexing it.
3. SE's care about users not webmasters, deal with it.

Thats about it, I agree with most your points, I just told you to stop whining about having to spend so much time trying to optimize for their results.

Well I guess he told you Jason... Ha



Cheers


RS

[Jason Tor]

I'm glad you agree with most of my points.

If you poke around in the forum you'll see a lot of people agree. Which is probably why google is tweaking their algo so much.

What it comes down to is they have come to a point where maybe they can't get it any better? Speaking as a designer - pick an algo and leave it alone for more then a few weeks - speaking as a user - pick an algo and leave it alone for more then a few weeks.

Jason Tor

[RichardS]

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

I'm glad you agree with most of my points.

If you poke around in the forum you'll see a lot of people agree. Which is probably why google is tweaking their algo so much.

What it comes down to is they have come to a point where maybe they can't get it any better? Speaking as a designer - pick an algo and leave it alone for more then a few weeks - speaking as a user - pick an algo and leave it alone for more then a few weeks.

Jason Tor

Words of wisdom.
I need to leave it alone for a while. Think I'll buy a Xanax/Valium salt lick for my desk and chill out and wait for Google to get their house in order


Cheers


RS

[ctabuk]

Guys, chill out - if Jason suddenly starts getting hits from Google then he will cheer up.My pages for my main keyword go from 2 to 102, but I don't care, there is no rhyme or reason to things that happen on Google, accept it and move on. Last week a URL leapt past me, 75 backlinks, No content, Crap information, what did I do? I poured a glass of red wine (6pm) and said,'so what'- maybe it's because I've gone past 50, believe me it's nice, you wait and see.
If you just stick by the basics.
Content
Description
Updating
Directories

Right now we are going to see the biggest SE war since we all started here at WPW - Ask Jeeves is advertising (guess who's Number 1!)So look at Teoma, Bill Gates is advertising, Overture is advertising, So what if Google gives crap results, Internal 'bickering'between members is counter productive, amusing yes, help each other, it is more fun!

[Jason Tor]

I agree completely with you, I think myself and rivux are giving two sides to the same story. I don't hold any aggression, I appreciate his and everyone else’s input.

But I think there is a point to be made, even the people that "defend" (for lack of a better word) google, still point out the inconsistent results over the last few months.

Regardless weather your a webmaster or a simple every once in awhile user, I personally think if googles going to be the biggest and the best, they should produce the biggest and the best results.

I personally have watched google go from a good search engine that actually did care about their users and webmasters - to a big business company that could now care less.

I think google has drunk their self sober. So instead of looking the other way, I'll search another engine.

Jason Tor

P.S. I wont ever start getting hits from google unless I pay for them through adwords....hmmmm

[ctabuk]

Jason, CHEAT - for goodness sake, there are ways of beating Google at it's own game. I have posted this loads of times so once more will not hurt!

Google is fascinated by several single words - one is FACTS the other is NEWS - don't ask why, it just works -my keywords are 'Right to Buy'on Google today I'm on page 12 of Google for that term - but add facts or news and I'm top and have been for 2 years, no sandboxing, no movement, constant placements - I have 500 different SE results all at number 1, 2 or 3 - so if i place an ad (which I don't bother with) I'd just place an ad saying 'Want to Buy your ********** Search **************Facts on any Search Engine.
My special offer, give me your keywords and your e-mail address, lets sort you out a stategy. OK

[LLFitness_Derek]

Google is like an X-Girlfriend. As long as she is treating you good you love her to death, but when she does you wrong you cant stand her!

I have to say, i love google and all the traffic and sales it drives for my massage site that is 8 years old, BUT I cringe at the thought of launching new sites because its not about content... Its about off page factors! Links Links Links... Blah I think that has been the easiest part of the ALOG to figure out... IF %LINKS% NEQ %X% COPY %WEBSITE% >> SANDBOX :-)

-Just my opinions

NEW SITE:
Rank #1 msn for all my keywords
pool rules, pool table rules,official pool rules, general pool rules, bca rules, pool associations,U.S. Pool Halls, Cowboy Rules... What does google have to say? "Go play in the sand"