Not GAGA over GOOGLE anymore...

[Jason Tor]

Here is my opinion on google:



I'm tired of google, they are becoming increasingly difficult to deal with, they're not consistent anymore. One day this site is on top, the next day that site is on top. I really believe they expect way to much. I think if google had their way (and right now they do) they wouldn't be happy until everyone with a website is sitting in front of their computer doing nothing but trying to get in google's top results.

I'm sick of it, I get far better and MORE RELEVANT traffic from MSN and YAHOO then I ever have from google. Since I stopped playing the google game and started optimizing for YAHOO and MSN I've been very busy. I laugh at google's pagerank now (and you can bet google is sitting back laughing also) this coming from someone who at one time not long ago was obsessed with it.

google is getting to big to fast, firing people because their to old or because they have an opinion and want to share it - they have become the dictator of the internet - I for one have lost any and all faith in googles ability to be consistent with their search results or to even run a fair and honest company.

Jason Tor (soon to be banned from google I'm sure)

[jwm5411]

Jason, I agree 100%. I admire your courage...bet a lot of people are afraid to post to this thread. You put into words, what a lot of us are thinking.
Why try to optimize for Google. I've got a great website loaded with content and I don't try to trick up anything. I have many thousands of visitors per month and almost none come from Google.
We are one of two sites that sell Sebring products online...both sites are not listed on the first page...though we have been over the last two years. The sites that are there now, for the most part, link to my site and have nothing directly to do with Sebring Hair products. What ever Google has done to the algo, in my opinion has made it less accurate.
We are listed at the top for all our keywords in Yahoo! and MSN. We get all the traffic we need from these search engines.
I agree completely with you...Google is too inconsistent to pay much attention too...certainly by SEO managers and increasingly by anyone who needs accurate search results.

John(If banned from Google, life will go on.)

[Jason Tor]

I'm glad someone else shares my opinion about google, and will say it!

I see more then a few have read the thread but only one has posted, thanks John!

Come on now, I can't even get a laugh about my image of Larry as a dictator? Should I be worried that google will show up at my house and take me away to the infamous sandbox?

Jason Tor

[rivux]

Google isn't overly concerned about webmasters and they shouldn't be. They care about the search results and their users, webmasters are just a pain in the ass. All this whining that people do about Google not caring about its webmaster is starting to get tiresome. Google like any search engine cares about relevant results and I hate to be break the news to ya, but the web is so flooded with content that you could pick hundreds of pages to show up on the front page for most keywords and the user would still be happy.

Just because Site A bounces around from 2nd to 19th to 5th means jackshit to the users (the people Google needs to care about). The user just cares that if they type in their keywords they get back the info they want. If it means you supplying or one of the hundreds of other sites supplying it, the user doesn't care (and neither does Google)

[Jason Tor]

Hey rivux,

I AM A USER! AND I'M TIRED OF THEIR INCONSISTENT RESULTS.

And another thing, google better be concerned about the people who make the 8 billion pages they crawl. If you really think google doesn't care about webmasters then you need to put down the pipe, why do you think they change their algo so often? Wake up man!

And you really think it's no big deal that site A goes from page 1 to page 19? So I'm only allowed to find site A every once in awhile? That doesn't even make sense. Stop kissing googles butt and start thinking for yourself. It always amazes me how fierce people will defend google, tell me what's so special about a search engine that changes their results more then most people change their underwear.


Try again rivux, maybe without the profanity next time..

Jason Tor

[rivux]

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

I AM A USER! AND I'M TIRED OF THEIR INCONSISTENT RESULTS.

Your original post was entirely about being a webmaster, but if you want to change your story now just to try and prove a point, fine with me.

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

And another thing, google better be concerned about the people who make the 8 billion pages they crawl. If you really think google doesn't care about webmasters then you need to put down the pipe, why do you think they change their algo so often? Wake up man!

They change their algo because of people trying to manipulate their results, which is a big difference from caring about wembasters in the positive sense. If you don't like how they do business, then use the robots.txt file and don't let them crawl your site, it's not like we are splitting atoms here.

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

And you really think it's no big deal that site A goes from page 1 to page 19? So I'm only allowed to find site A every once in awhile? That doesn't even make sense.

No I don't think its a big deal if a page bounces around the SERPS, if the end user finds the info they are looking for who cares what site serves it. Now if you are looking for a particuilar site as you said "So I'm only allowed to find site A every once in awhile?" then thats another matter, Google is pretty good at showing a site near the top if you search for its name. But we aren't talking about finding specific sites we are talking about finding general information (web hosting, green alligators), which means lots of sites have that info. If you want to revisit a site, bookmark it, write it down, memorize it, whatever, but its not googles concern to always have it in the same place.

If a site ranks on the 10th page, and then the next time you search on the 8th page, and then the 3rd time you search its on the 6th page, are you going to be pissed off cuz its not on the same page everytime? Of course not, to use your words "that doesn't even make sense". A page moving up and down in the serps is natural, in fact moving up is the goal of every webmaster, hardly something to be upset about.

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

Stop kissing googles butt and start thinking for yourself. It always amazes me how fierce people will defend google, tell me what's so special about a search engine that changes their results more then most people change their underwear.

Im defending Googles right to do business as they see fit, and if that means moving sites around the SERPs then thats their call, they don't owe you or any other webmaster a single thing. Like I said above, if you don't want them to index you, just use the meta tags or robots.txt file and stop whining about how they operate. You seem like the kind of guy who would have sided with SearchKing and their lawsuit against Google, you people baffle me.

As for kissing butt and not thinking for myself, those comments honestly made me laugh out loud. You either have a wicked sense of humour, or are legally retarded. Im hoping for the former but willing to accept the latter.

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

Try again rivux, maybe without the profanity next time..

The 'profanity' was aimed at the users feelings not at you, but if you are that sensitive to 'big people' words then I will filter them for you from now on.


Try again Jason Tor, how about with some logic this time.

[funbiz]

Just because Site A bounces around from 2nd to 19th to 5th means jackshit to the users (the people Google needs to care about). The user just cares that if they type in their keywords they get back the info they want. If it means you supplying or one of the hundreds of other sites supplying it, the user doesn't care (and neither does Google)

The problems (for some) are that people are not getting back the info they want!

[cbp]

Despite sites bouncing around, I have never had a problem finding whatever I want searching via Google.

CBP

[RichardS]

Jason I tend to be leaning your way. One thing I am sure you are aware of is the "Salt Factor". Everything should be taken with a grain of salt, even me, or a chaser or shooter.
My wife and I are in the Real Estate business and have been doing well through internet sales. A majority coming from MSN and yahoo. Yes over time I have been Chasing the elusive Google creature. I have managed to keep in the top 20 over the past 3 years. Every now and then Google will reshuffle the deck, stick me to number seventy for 6-8 hours and then I'm back up to number 15 or so out of 40,000.
What does all that mean, hell I don't know. Some shoe salesmen/shoestores only market and sell shoes to the black community and make a very nice living. So if your tooling for MSN and Yahoo more power to ya brother. When your swingin ten below the knee on MSN and yahoo then refocus on Google monster.
Me I'm obsessive compulsive. Hell I'm swingin ten below on yahoo and MSN (top five multiple keyword searches) and battle Google from sun up to bed time. But the day will come, yes that day will come, when yes I am again in the top 3 on Google and then I will truly be able to say... HAAAAAAA HA HA HA HA!!!
But until such time I skulk around message boards the same as you looking for scraps and listening to piles.



Cheers




RS

[Jason Tor]

Listen rivux,

let me make myself clear,

I am a user and a webmaster and over the last several months (if not more) I have become tired of their inconsistent results weather YOU like it or not. And that's about all your worth, except for the "big peoples words" that's just out of respect for everyone else that reads the forum.

Believe me rivux I have some "big people words for you". You can ramble on and on all you like, the fact is google is becoming extremely inconsistent. Now maybe their adjusting their algo and it's taking awhile, maybe when their done everyone will find exactly what their looking for the first time they try and we will all drop to our knees and thank the google gods but I highly doubt it.

I've been searching google from the beginning, I still search google, their toolbar is still installed, but their fading fast and if they don't do something their not going to be king of rivux world much longer. I'm in love with adwords and will defend it to the death, but the more they concentrate on ppc, gmail, desktop search etc.. the worse their natural listings get. Defend them all you want rivux the fact is, Yahoo and MSN aren't just catching up...google is falling behind.

Now as for me either being retarded(no offence to anyone) or having a "wicked" since of humor... I do feel retarded searching google at times and from my image of Larry Page as a dictator I do have a since of humor however it hasn't been "wicked" since I was in junior high which is the last time I used that word.

If you can't handle someone else having an opinion about google and writing it down maybe you should go work for them, sounds like you would fit right in.

CBP - I don't have a problem finding what I want on google either...it just takes me twice as long. P.S. I'm still waiting on DMOZ j/k.

RichardS, I'm with you. Over the past 3 years things were good - over the past several months things have NOT been so good. Google is falling behind and it doesn't seem like they are focusing on what got them to the top to begin with.

Funbiz is correct, people are not getting the results they want. Now before you go off rivux - the average surfer that gets home from a hard day's work doesn't really care what results they get...until they are actually looking for something specific...this is where google is falling behind.

But this is just my opinion, it's a good thing I don't work for google or they would fire me for even having an one.

Jason Tor

[MarcieZoob]

I used to use Google exclusively for organic searches but I too have noticed over the past few months that the results lean more toward link farms, directories and spam sites. I can tell from the description of the organic listing that it's not at all what I'm looking for.

I'm using Yahoo more than before but I still have Google toolbar so I can toggle back and forth to search on both and compare results. I tend to follow the Yahoo links since I get served actual web sites offering what I'm searching for, not a list of sites that are more links (and more crap) for me to weed through.

Just my coupla cents...

[rivux]

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

I am a user and a webmaster and over the last several months (if not more) I have become tired of their inconsistent results weather YOU like it or not. And that's about all your worth, except for the "big peoples words" that's just out of respect for everyone else that reads the forum.

Im going to quote you for a second since it seems like you forgot what you originally said. Which I might add was what my first comments were based on, since thats how forums work, you say something, I reply to it, etc.

I really believe they expect way to much. I think if google had their way (and right now they do) they wouldn't be happy until everyone with a website is sitting in front of their computer doing nothing but trying to get in google's top results.

I'm sick of it, I get far better and MORE RELEVANT traffic from MSN and YAHOO then I ever have from google. Since I stopped playing the google game and started optimizing for YAHOO and MSN I've been very busy.

Both of those comments were from a webmasters point of you, which is why I told you to stop whining about being a webmaster and not liking Google. I made no mention of whether the results are good from a users point of view because that wasn't what our conversation was about. Now if we want to change focus Im all for it, but don't try to place my comments into a context they don't belong.

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

If you can't handle someone else having an opinion about google and writing it down maybe you should go work for them, sounds like you would fit right in.

At what point did I say you couldn't have your opinion, it seems you are the one with the big issue of others having an opinion since as soon as I disagreed with yours, you started on the personal attacks. You can have your opinion, its great, Im excited for you.


I will summarize my position because I get the feeling you don't like reading long paragraphs.

1. Googles results aren't perfect.
2. If you don't like your site bouncing around, stop google from indexing it.
3. SE's care about users not webmasters, deal with it.

Thats about it, I agree with most your points, I just told you to stop whining about having to spend so much time trying to optimize for their results.

[RichardS]

[quote="rivux"]

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

I will summarize my position because I get the feeling you don't like reading long paragraphs.

1. Googles results aren't perfect.
2. If you don't like your site bouncing around, stop google from indexing it.
3. SE's care about users not webmasters, deal with it.

Thats about it, I agree with most your points, I just told you to stop whining about having to spend so much time trying to optimize for their results.

Well I guess he told you Jason... Ha



Cheers


RS

[Jason Tor]

I'm glad you agree with most of my points.

If you poke around in the forum you'll see a lot of people agree. Which is probably why google is tweaking their algo so much.

What it comes down to is they have come to a point where maybe they can't get it any better? Speaking as a designer - pick an algo and leave it alone for more then a few weeks - speaking as a user - pick an algo and leave it alone for more then a few weeks.

Jason Tor

[RichardS]

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

I'm glad you agree with most of my points.

If you poke around in the forum you'll see a lot of people agree. Which is probably why google is tweaking their algo so much.

What it comes down to is they have come to a point where maybe they can't get it any better? Speaking as a designer - pick an algo and leave it alone for more then a few weeks - speaking as a user - pick an algo and leave it alone for more then a few weeks.

Jason Tor

Words of wisdom.
I need to leave it alone for a while. Think I'll buy a Xanax/Valium salt lick for my desk and chill out and wait for Google to get their house in order


Cheers


RS

[ctabuk]

Guys, chill out - if Jason suddenly starts getting hits from Google then he will cheer up.My pages for my main keyword go from 2 to 102, but I don't care, there is no rhyme or reason to things that happen on Google, accept it and move on. Last week a URL leapt past me, 75 backlinks, No content, Crap information, what did I do? I poured a glass of red wine (6pm) and said,'so what'- maybe it's because I've gone past 50, believe me it's nice, you wait and see.
If you just stick by the basics.
Content
Description
Updating
Directories

Right now we are going to see the biggest SE war since we all started here at WPW - Ask Jeeves is advertising (guess who's Number 1!)So look at Teoma, Bill Gates is advertising, Overture is advertising, So what if Google gives crap results, Internal 'bickering'between members is counter productive, amusing yes, help each other, it is more fun!

[Jason Tor]

I agree completely with you, I think myself and rivux are giving two sides to the same story. I don't hold any aggression, I appreciate his and everyone else’s input.

But I think there is a point to be made, even the people that "defend" (for lack of a better word) google, still point out the inconsistent results over the last few months.

Regardless weather your a webmaster or a simple every once in awhile user, I personally think if googles going to be the biggest and the best, they should produce the biggest and the best results.

I personally have watched google go from a good search engine that actually did care about their users and webmasters - to a big business company that could now care less.

I think google has drunk their self sober. So instead of looking the other way, I'll search another engine.

Jason Tor

P.S. I wont ever start getting hits from google unless I pay for them through adwords....hmmmm

[ctabuk]

Jason, CHEAT - for goodness sake, there are ways of beating Google at it's own game. I have posted this loads of times so once more will not hurt!

Google is fascinated by several single words - one is FACTS the other is NEWS - don't ask why, it just works -my keywords are 'Right to Buy'on Google today I'm on page 12 of Google for that term - but add facts or news and I'm top and have been for 2 years, no sandboxing, no movement, constant placements - I have 500 different SE results all at number 1, 2 or 3 - so if i place an ad (which I don't bother with) I'd just place an ad saying 'Want to Buy your ********** Search **************Facts on any Search Engine.
My special offer, give me your keywords and your e-mail address, lets sort you out a stategy. OK

[LLFitness_Derek]

Google is like an X-Girlfriend. As long as she is treating you good you love her to death, but when she does you wrong you cant stand her!

I have to say, i love google and all the traffic and sales it drives for my massage site that is 8 years old, BUT I cringe at the thought of launching new sites because its not about content... Its about off page factors! Links Links Links... Blah I think that has been the easiest part of the ALOG to figure out... IF %LINKS% NEQ %X% COPY %WEBSITE% >> SANDBOX :-)

-Just my opinions

NEW SITE:
Rank #1 msn for all my keywords
pool rules, pool table rules,official pool rules, general pool rules, bca rules, pool associations,U.S. Pool Halls, Cowboy Rules... What does google have to say? "Go play in the sand"

[mtheory]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

Jason, CHEAT - for goodness sake, there are ways of beating Google at it's own game. I have posted this loads of times so once more will not hurt!

Google is fascinated by several single words - one is FACTS the other is NEWS - don't ask why, it just works -my keywords are 'Right to Buy'on Google today I'm on page 12 of Google for that term - but add facts or news and I'm top and have been for 2 years, no sandboxing, no movement, constant placements - I have 500 different SE results all at number 1, 2 or 3 - so if i place an ad (which I don't bother with) I'd just place an ad saying 'Want to Buy your ********** Search **************Facts on any Search Engine.
My special offer, give me your keywords and your e-mail address, lets sort you out a stategy. OK

This is where everyone's problem with Google starts. Unethical webmasters and SEO'ers use irrelevant keywords that skew the results for sites that legitimately use the cheater words.

The bad apples that think cheating is ok ruin it for the rest.

[OBR]

Did anyone add the fact that Google's sandbox effect was a big factor in their billion dollars of AdWord revenue in their last quarter.

Many webmasters use paid advertising that they would not normally pay for, because of the sandbox effect.

[Jason Tor]

Originally Posted by OBR

Did anyone add the fact that Google's sandbox effect was a big factor in their billion dollars of AdWord revenue in their last quarter.

Many webmasters use paid advertising that they would not normally pay for, because of the sandbox effect.

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

P.S. I wont ever start getting hits from google unless I pay for them through adwords....hmmmm

I was hoping someone would get my hidden meaning...


Jason Tor

[ctabuk]

Originally Posted by Mtheory

This is where everyone's problem with Google starts. Unethical webmasters and SEO'ers use irrelevant keywords that skew the results for sites that legitimately use the cheater words.

The bad apples that think cheating is ok ruin it for the rest.

Now on this I really take issue. Google is a Search Engine used by millions around the world. Firstly I only act for myself and a couple of friends, so technically I am not a webmaster. If you have a statcounter you will see and witness the search terms that are used everyday by people who visit your site. By putting keywords into your description tags that other people use then use them. Maybe on reflection 'Cheat' was the wrong expresion, I will not use it again, but and I emphasise the word 'but' if something works, use it. Google or any other SE has spiders, we all know that and if they are lured to certain keywords you would be plain crazy not to use them.You used the expression 'Bad Apple'that was a little over the top - I look forward to your reply.

[freehits]

Mtheory:
This is where everyone's problem with Google starts. Unethical webmasters and SEO'ers use irrelevant keywords that skew the results for sites that legitimately use the cheater words.
The bad apples that think cheating is ok ruin it for the rest.

You apparently dont read ctabuck's posts very often if this is your conclusion. To do so would be researching your comment before typing it.


ctabuck - its not the age thing with you, it's the UK in you. Under fire and the suit remains pressed and smooth.

[mtheory]

Originally Posted by ctabuk

Jason, CHEAT - for goodness sake, there are ways of beating Google at it's own game. I have posted this loads of times so once more will not hurt!

ctabuk

Just to clarify, this is not a comment directed toward your views or tactics but the overall state of the SEO game in general.

I feel differently about your point of view being that the objective is to beat Google. Google is merely the the score keeper on the cyberspace playing field.

The point I was trying to make was that as long as players don't follow the rules and represent themselves as honestly as possible , it is impossible for the score keeper to be completely accurate.

[freehits]

I retract any rude tone to my comment as well, as thats not why we are here.

I think that Ctabuk used "cheat" to mean optimize within your page theme.

I look forward to testing your theory CTA since my site i will test it on does indeed have "facts and news" to offer.

[Maloney]

Wow this has been a hot topic for me lately too and I've been noticing rumblings around the net.

My take:

Google has too much power. Why are we all knocking ourselves out for an engine that can "make us" one minute, and "break us" the next? Would I love google traffic? Abso-flippin-lutely! But Google is no longer an "everyman's" game. It's become Elitest IMO.

If you have established networks in place (read $$$ for domains, hosting, etc.), or if you pay for masses of text links (read $$$), you can rank in Google for whatever you'd like. Anything.

I've been a diehard Google fan since I first found it years ago, but this craziness just has to stop. We really need to push and encourage and promote use of other search engines - get that traffic spread around. Who made Google what it is today? We did, the internet community. We encouraged everybody to use it, and even taught surfers how to use it. We created this monster that has all the power (ok just all the traffic lol).

My question is, is it cheaper to:

Build and purchase yourself a big linking network
Purchase masses of inbound text links
Buy adwords

Cause from what I can see, those are your three options for being seen in Google. No freebie results found here. And I really find that shameful.

Bottom line: I'm outta the game. I'm moving forward with MSN and Yahoo and any other engine that can provide real results. And I'll be promoting use of those engines as well. One surfer at a time! lol


[first post - felt so strongly about this I jumped out of lurker mode]

[toby_bird]

Not to be offensive, but isn’t this topic a bit old. From day one of becoming a webmaster, developer, or an owner of one or two sites there has always been the discussion of serps being inconsistent. I'd love to find that one post where everyone was pleased with the serps and all was right in the world! lol Go figure that every time a new algo is released to the hounds, hysteria results, ban the search engine posters start flying and the march begins. Not gaga of Google? The same could be heard in mid December and then again previously during the Florida update. The list goes on.

Personally, I have no problems finding what I want whether it’s searching on MSN, Yahoo or Google. Why? Because I understand that in order to find what I am looking for, I must be specific in my search terms. It’s not difficult. Goodness, even my mother who has a hard enough time speaking English can successfully search Google for what she wants.

This is how I look at it… Google’s algorithms seem to be moving towards the function of educating the users on how to search. You search for Homes For Sale and get crap, well go figure. Why not try searching for Miami Homes For Sale instead. How exactly would you manage 8+ billion sites? Can you truly think that an algo update is done without any cause and effect research? Seems somewhat far fetched to me.

Our role as webmasters, developers and such is to build our sites so that the content guides these users to us. (shhh…I can hear you screaming “That’s what I’ve been doing!”) If you stop, think, read and don't panic, you’ll realize that it's really quite a simple task.

On a lighter note:

Originally Posted by ctabuk

Maybe on reflection 'Cheat' was the wrong expresion,

::evil laugh & a wink:: Opened up a can of worms with that one didn’t ya ctabuk! lol

Originally Posted by hoptoo

ctabuck - its not the age thing with you, it's the UK in you.

lol Drop him off down here in South Florida, he’ll be cured quickly!

[Jason Tor]

toby_bird, I was all set to make my peace with this but...not anymore

I'm not attacking you, but you are so wrong. google has been going down hill for some time now. I said it earlier and here it is again - Yahoo and MSN are not just catching up, google is falling behind. google is not paying enough attention to their natural listings. Are they dumb? Not by any means, they employ engineers that no more about everything then I know about nothing (and believe me I know a lot about nothing).

There is a reason their fading, I believe it may have something to do with their PPC, I also have a feeling their trying to produce results that are much to "ahead of their time" - their most definitely sandboxing weather they admit it or not.

Now I can also find what I want on google, but again it takes me twice as long, and toby I know how to search, it's my job to search, it's my job to search broad AND specific. I don't have fun designing a site here or their, It's my career. I have clients that make 100% of their income of their websites, and guess who's phone starts ringing when their rankings tank for no reason other then google wants to change their algo every 5 minutes.

So now most of my clients(who are also users) now search Yahoo and MSN.

Maloney - Welcome to WPW. Were usually a lot nicer to each other! This is a hot topic and I get the feeling it's going to get much hotter over the next few months.

Jason Tor

[toby_bird]

First off, the point here is not to be right or wrong. It is to express an opinion.

Secondly, the SE wars are just that – a war. One party rises and another falls. As Google reinvents their algorithm again MSN and Yahoo will do the same. My point is that this is never a consistent battle and never will be. Can you imagine how stale results would become if they were? MSN and Yahoo might be on top now – but will they still be there in three months? Hopefully so, but then what’s to say that the same thing could not happen to them? Will Google rise again? Who knows...that’s the nature of the game. Some feel that Allegra was the most horrific thing Google could have ever done – but others hold a completely opposite position. I've spoken to a number of webmasters and site owners who are more than pleased with the recent changes.

Not to be rude, but you state that “you do not have fun designing a site here or there, it’s my career.” Seriously, I mean this in the nicest way – Then why do it? Why spend your valuable time in a job that you don’t enjoy? I guess the reason I ask this is because I was once there…

Regardless of your opinion, mine or anyone else’s, the fact remains that we have no control over what MSN, Yahoo or Google does. We can debate this topic until we are blue in the face. These changes may infuriate us to no end, upset our clients/customers and cause a few choice words to be yelled in frustration, but what other choice do we have other than to take a deep breath, sit back, evaluate the change and form a new angle of attack? Personally, I love the challenge. (but I’m just odd like that) ;)

[Jason Tor]

Your right, it's about an opinion. I disagree with your opinion. But I'm glad your posting it.

Originally Posted by toby_bird

My point is that this is never a consistent battle and never will be.

google has been the most consistent search engine for the last couple years at least, until the last several months. A search engine like google doesn't provide the most relevant results by far and then start dumping at random for no reason.

I enjoy what I do, my point was I don't do it on the side or just for fun. I enjoy it, I'm good at it and I take pride in it.

This is my opinion - google is running around like a chicken with its head cut off right now - why, I don't know, but I'm not going to chase it around anymore.

Jason Tor

[MarcieZoob]

I'm in this business because it's new and constantly evolving, and it keeps me interested! If it was the same-old same-old everyday, I would bail.

As toby_bird said, it can be frustrating for us and for our clients in regard to maintaining (or acheiving) strong SE placement. But that's part of the thrill ride of being part of such a new industry.

As I said, I take mine with a nice glass of Sauvignon Blanc. :)

[cspelts]

Originally Posted by Jason Tor

google has been the most consistent search engine for the last couple years at least, until the last several months.

Google still needs to evolve in order to fight spam and provide relevent results. And evolution is sometimes messy...

[freehits]

Originally Posted by toby_bird

lol Drop him off down here in South Florida, he’ll be cured quickly!

I just got out, and since this post is tinkering with sanity we should not add the concept which is 'south florida' to the mix.

and as tor said, we are all generally alot friendlier than this post may suggest.

[greeneagle]

It is frustrating, both as a Webmaster and User.
Two kinds of addicts, Right!

We knew this was going to be a bumpy year, before it started.

Here's my take:

Webmaster - Don't like shooting in the dark. Would like better communication from the gods. MSN just modified their Site Owner/Webmaster Guidelines when Beta went live and moved them here: http://search.msn.com/docs/siteowner.aspx

Business Owner - Don't want to disappoint clients. Don't like making excuses. Don't like jumping through certain parts of my anatomy to head a different direction. But, money can be made from change....especially when it envolves more competition.

Scientific (engineer) - $Billions in revenue drive new technologies. The old dusty AI (Artificial Intelligence) shelf got dusted and cleaned and that is exciting. It's been setting around for decades!

"Arm Chair" Philosopher - Change is good if you stay on top of it.

Human Being - Damn, I'm tired!

Spectator - Forget the Matador, where did he go anyway? Some of the Biggest "BULLS" in history are clashing, "blood and guts" are flying all over the arena! No holds barred: Business/Technology/Philosophy/Psychology/Power/Gamemanship - Better than any other Spectator Sport I have ever seen.

It's extremely exciting to see the step advances in AI right now. IMO - That is what the Alegra update is all about, the integration of artificial intelligence to further cut out spam and reinforce relevancy. Forget "Titles", "Metatags" etc.. they are going straight to the Body and are going to increasingly enhance their capability to understand what is really on the page from word association. AI is a very difficult technology, and before now the equipment, brainpower and monetary resources did not add up sufficiently.

This is going to be a long show, better make sure I have enough equipment, knowledge, whiskey and an occasional cognac and cigar!

Best show on the planet!

Guess I'll just keep watching Firefox gain ground on IE (averaging around 10% on our Sites) and using MSNSearch more every day with the sweet sound of the horns clashing in the background.

Ken

[steveteva]

Hi
My website was ranked number 3 under a one word keyword since I was online as I've SEO. This week my website is ranked.... 4th page of Google listing with a PR6 and many of the websites listed on the 1stpage result of Google are PR1 to 4.

Is it normal? what's going on? I know I m a SEO veteran but that is really a clue for me.

[ctabuk]

Hey this is great -
now try putting ~search, seriously, go to a Google search box and place ~ before your search term. If we were all nutty before,wait till you try and fathom out the results lol
hoptoo - thanks
toby_bird - I am more than just tempted. Yes this is a topic that will go on and on, Jason actually posted 'Who cares about Google' in another thread on this very page.
Ken, cigars and whiskey, cool!
Well not only are we entertaining we are also learning, and just like dolphins if we stop swimming we die. So I hope this thread and this forum and all the wonderful characters will keep swimming.

[maxsun]

After programming for nearly 20 years, I'm wondering if a new programmer has been hired at Google. One bad programmer can REALLY wreak havoc on the system. And it's shockingly easy to do. Either that, or they've brought in a marketing team and we're all being "herded" into paying for clicks... i.e., drop a website and they'll usually start paying just to keep sales from tanking...

We were on Page #1 for many keywords we were paying for so we dropped our Adwords campaigns on them. And guess what... We were just about dropped completely! We were up to about 350 free clicks from google a day and now down to 6.

We've read the forums and most of us haven't a clue why we were dropped! So then "myths" begin. Frankly, it's like looking for a needle in a haystack or flying blind with no guidance. And in that mode, it SOOOO easy to do more damage than good...

Until they stabilize somewhat, we've moved all our advertising off Google and onto other, more conventional advertising such as Magazine ads, etc. In essense, we've written them off. Our energies are better applied elsewhere.

I personally think Google is doing themselves terrible damage by alienating the people who keep the web going and dynamic--webmasters and SEO's. We guide the internet user--and they're REALLY motivating us to move elsewhere.

I personally use MSN search 80% of the time now and am finding it much better!

And Toby-bird? Gotta wonder if you're working for Google, cause you're the only one defending them...

[jwm5411]

It seems obvious...Google is so inconsistent that no one should rely on incoming visitors from this search engine. If Yahoo! or MSN gives me top results for most of my keywords, I will pay them to give me top results for those keywords that do not rate highly. No can build a business by relying on results that come from Google…so why try?

If your business needs to conduct searches on a routine basis, would you use a service that provides inconsistent results from one day to the next? Consistent, accurate results are the mainstay of most businesses. With Google recently, I never know what I'm going to get.

Also, Google wants us to pay them to advertise our websites and then drops our sites natural rankings for no discernible reason. Would you screw with your paying customers like this?

My apologies for the rant…

[Jason Tor]

Here it is,

Trying to get to the bottom of this (God knows google wont respond) I contacted greeneagle yesterday. He hit the nail on the head with his post about google and AI.

I now think google is messing around with their newly acquired artificial intelligence (although at this point it would be far fetched to call what google's doing intelligent). Hey that's great! Or is it?

Can google not afford to do this at their own expense??? Right now their testing and tweaking this new AI at our expense! How many small businesses will never get the chance to thrive because they launched at the time of google's AI experiment? (ok that's pretty dramatic) But the point remains they can afford to test this AI without killing our SERPS!

It seems to me that google is treating it's user's and webmasters like an old broken down dog. Smack us all you want, we'll keep coming back to lick your hand. I'm not cowering down to the google gods anymore, I'm now full on using MSN for all my searches.

Jason Tor

[freehits]

To do this at the same time that MSn is pouring Billions into the new search would seem poor timing and lack of foresight?

That is like getting to the superbowl, then sitting your starting QB on the bench. The hottest moment of competition is not a good time to stir the winning formula.

And to do this without press releasing the efforts, would seem couter-productive since nobody would label the unexplained results as

"a changing for the better process"

If such a great change for the better was the cause of all this, why let everyone lose loyalty along the way by leaving us in the dark?

[joliettech]

It seems to me that the ones not doing well with Google hate it and the ones doing well love it.

Jason, it seems that maybe you are not doing well with Google. Did you at one time have good results with Google and if you did what was your feeling about them then?

If your not doing well with Google, start an AdWords campaign. If you are doing well with Google, be happy. What's the big deal?

We have been at both ends of this discussion. Up until the Florida Update we were doing great with Google, 1st page for our main key phrases. After Florida we were on page 18 to 20. So we started an AdWords campaign to keep our name on the 1st page of the results. The number of hits were down but it keep us in front of the people searching our main key phrases. Now, after the Allegra Update, we are back on the 1st page (position 4 & 5 of 1,690,000). Our hits have increased 50% and our Google traffic has also increased by about 10%. Our AdWords campaign is still running but I think most of the phrases we are buying will be disabled by Google due to poor Click Thru Percentage.

It seems that Google is using Latent Semantic Indexing (http://javelina.cet.middlebury.edu/l...definition.htm) now. Our site has always been very focused but not a lot of inbound links compared to other sites. This type of indexing seems to be a very logical way of indexing. It not only looks at on page content but also looks at how relevant the page is to the site as a whole.

You may not like what Google is doing, but there isn't anything you can do about it. Try to find a way to make it work for you and your clients.

[scallihan]

Even though I've dropped in Google this month, like quite a few others, it is still by far the largest source of free traffic I have. I consider traffic I get from Google as a gift, not a birthright. Last time I had a big drop in Google was just about six months ago (in late August 04) -- took about a month or so to climb back up to where I was before.

[greeneagle]

hoptoo:

"That is like getting to the superbowl, then sitting your starting QB on the bench. The hottest moment of competition is not a good time to stir the winning formula."

When you are running in front of the pack (alpha) you gotta slap the other "dogs" off your ass once in a while. If you don't they go for the throat!

Are you a dog owner?

Nature teaches us about life all the time with her big beautiful nourishing teat.

How about that worn out business cliche; "Dog Eat Dog"?

You know there is an entire discipline of Physics/Engineering dedicated to studying nature and using "her" models to advance technology?

Ken

[jwm5411]

I hear what all of you are saying about Google playing with AI and other technologies...they would not do this with live results. With their resources they must have a test environment separate from what we see...or they are doing things differently than any professional software development group around.

Whatever is going on is deliberate, planned, and part of their business plan.

[greeneagle]

jwm5411:
"I hear what all of you are saying about Google playing with AI and other technologies...they would not do this with live results."

What???? I thought we had already established a complexity foundation here!!!!

This is way too complicated a technology to introduce any other way than in sequential modules.

It's going to be a module - release - tweak - learn and go effort for a long time coming.

This one just happens to be a big first bite.

Ken

[freehits]

My valid point being,


"..see if something works, and tweak"?

MSN is telling the world they have the best new results, and you are trying some new stuff out to see if it works?

Perhaps you have been reading different boards where the changes are a huge success thusfar?

But I think most have seen these changes lead to a general sentiment of optimism toward MSN.


This emphasizes the point that the worst time to ever risk upsetting happy customers is when a new store JUST OPENED UP next door.

____________________________

Just answer the following, do you think the google changes of the past month have helped or hurt the popularity of the release of the new MSN?

[greeneagle]

hoptoo:
"When you are most "on display" on likely to be under the microscope in comparisons to the new MSN, why would anyone choose that time to

"..see if something works, and tweak"?

MSN is telling the world they have the best new results, and you are trying some new stuff out to see if it works?"
_____

How else do you stay ahead?

It's an "alpha" thing learn from the "big dogs"!

LOL
Ken

[freehits]

but again..do you think the google changes of the past month have helped or hurt the popularity of the release of the new MSN?

Whatever the master plan is, it is showing to not be helping google in retaining their future cusotmer base thus far.

For me, I dont own their stock, and I want a 33/33/33 world.

[greeneagle]

Don't doubt for a moment that MSN is in a competitive AI rowboat with their resources, and don't count Yahoo out either:)

IMO - Go ahead and count AOL out completely - They have been on "Hind Teat" for a long time. They shot themselves in their "proprietary" foot. They tweaked out on a "different" path a long time ago, and there is just no recovery.

Ken