Frustrated SEO. Please help.

[leesw]

This is humiliating. I'm an SEO and even work fulltime on a high-traffic web site of a non-profit. I started that site from scratch and others that do well in terms of traffic.

Anyway, I have a web site that I've been working on for almost 6 months. The traffic has been okay. And the PR is 5 except on the homepage which is 4 (this is the exact opposite of the experiences I've had in the past with PR).

But in terms of search engine ranking, I'm no where to be found. I know I'm listed for obvious reasons (typing in the full URL and seeing it listed)but I went through 50 pages just now looking for a listing with a key phrase and it's just not listed.

I've developed tons of back links and have optimized the site well in my opinion.

I'd very much appreciate some opinions. The site is http://www.realchristiansingles.com and the key phrase I want most is "christian singles."

Thank you

Lee

[beanstalk]

Take a peek at the backlinks of the sites ranking in the top 3 (that's as far as I got).

Good luck !

[cbp]

Sandboxed.

CBP

[buddhu]

Originally Posted by cbp

Sandboxed.

CBP

CBP, some people talk about new links being sandboxed, others talk about new sites being sandboxed, others talk about sites getting sandboxed temporarily after making certain changes etc. Some people dispute that sandboxing per se even exists...

Bearing all that in mind, could you give us a bit more about how and why you think the sandbox applies here?

[cbp]

I never used to be a huge fan of the sandbox theory until very recently. Most sites I looked at that claimed to be sandboxed, simply just ranked badly. I am now in no doubt that the sandbox exists (I have a site I am trying to get out it)

The reason for the sandbox is unclear. It could be Google needs time to evaluate the link structures of new sites - it may be deliberating holding back credits for new links .... it may be a spam fighting measure - it may be an index capacity issue etc etc

A site is generally sandboxed if:
1. It is a new site on a new domain (since about March) (in my case new doamain, new site in August)
2. It ranks well for non-competitive terms (for me, Widgets Arena - ranks number one)
3. It dosen't rank well for competitive terms (for me, not even in the top 700 for Widgets)
4. Has a good number of links (for me >80, a lot are PR4, 5 & 6 and listed in DMOZ; 3 of the top 10 sites for Widgets link to me)
5. Opitimsed well (for me lots of Widgets in anchor text, but its mixed up; on-page optimisation is OK, but not over done)
6. Ranks really well for the allins for main keyword (for me ranked number one or two for allinanhor:widgets, allintext:widgets, allinurl: widgets and allintitle:widgets - just does not rank for widgets!!!)
7. Has PR (for me its PR2 as site was new just prior to last update, but all my experience tells me it should be a high PR5 or low 6 at next update, if it was tomorrow)
8. Googlebot is all over the site often (for me it stops by for hours every day)

All my experience tells me that my site has every thing it needs to rank in the top couple of sites for Widgets .... but its not even in the first 700 ... it is not penalised as Google has indexed all pages and it ranks top for Widgets Arena (which no one will actually search on) and other combinations of words on the site ... this is the characteristic of a sandboxed site....the site in the first message is in the same boat.

I will be first to come back when a way out is found (I am even paying for my first listing in the Yahoo Directory to see if that can help - need to cover all bases)

CBP

[sfowler]

I am convinced that somethng similar is the case with my http://www.habmigern2003.info I get good rankings on MSN and Yahoo!, but zilch on Google. The no-competitive terms rank fine. I get a good deal of traffic from Google in Mexico and Brazil where the competition is not so bad, but nothing on the classic English keywords.

[ctabuk]

I just did a full USA SE search
results fom IPB
are, for Christian Singles

Alta Vista pos 6 page 1
AOL 3 1
Hot Bot Google 3 1
Inktomi 6 1
Teoma 5 1
MSN Beta 7 1
" " World 45 5
Google.com 2 1
Yahoo 7 1
All the Web 6 1

[DriWashSolutions]

Originally Posted by cbp

I never used to be a huge fan of the sandbox theory until very recently. Most sites I looked at that claimed to be sandboxed, simply just ranked badly. I am now in no doubt that the sandbox exists (I have a site I am trying to get out it)

Everything you describe is also true for my site. However, it's not ranked nearly as bad as yours (it's in the 80's now) and even ranks #1 for one keyword ("dri wash" ~ 80's; "driwash" = #1).

What is your opinion on this sandbox theory for my site which cam online in APR03?

[cbp]

If it came online in 2003 and is ranked in the 80's, it not the sandbox. The consensus is it only has been happening since about March this year for new sites since that time.

CBP

[zoreli]

Here is my story:

My site is online 4 months and is on position 19 on Yahoo for "Search Engine Positioning Firm", not in first 500 on Google (#585).

If you make allinanchor:Search Engine Positioning Firm search on Google, my site is #1. Same story for allintitle, allintext...

For more competitive keywords - I am nowhere to be found.

I perform a test with the keyword: web site position ranking.

My site is #3 on yahoo for this keyword (Yahoo returns 1.340.000 results), yet nowhere to be found on Google. Note that I have no backlinks with this keyword as anchor text (web site position ranking).

This is an example how much Yahoo rely on on page optimization and that Google does not even consider the site as alive during the "sandbox" period.

[DriWashSolutions]

Originally Posted by cbp

If it came online in 2003 and is ranked in the 80's, it not the sandbox.

So is it a penalty?

With more IBL's than the #1 position, and #1 for allinanchor for "dri wash", then why am I listed so low?

Any help on this would be greatly appreciated.

[cowtnadv]

Too many links! Bottom of page discounted by many search engines including Google! Run a separate link page and that might help. Search engines fear that site is nothing but circle jerk in order to run your traffic higher and to capture emails.

Put more meat, articles, evemts on the front page and then re-issue your site to them - it will take a while but it might work. Also changing your site's material on the front makes them come back more to update. Do you have a portal for the search engine's spyders to come in?

[magic_majax]

I hate to be the bearer of bad news but that page will never be listed at the top of google, your HTML is not valid for a start.

There are too many graphics, specifically animated gifs, even the trivial love hearts.

You need to redesign your site from the ground up, throw away everything and start again using CSS layouts instead of tables.

You might also consider linking to other Christian power-sites whenever the opportunity presents itself in the proper context of your pages.

Also, ask yourself why you repeatedly abbreviate your site's name when it contains the exact keywords for your aimed for search. Each self-reference will massively boost your listing if you cease to abbreviate and tackle the other problems.

[mrvietnam]

I agree it can be frustrating. The bottom line though is, "is the website profitable"?

My wife and I have been beaten up real good in this business and in fact are the only legal dating service in an entire country. Yet for a couple of years we were stiffed by developers, so called seo pros, programmers etc etc.

Redid the website AGAIN and launched april 28th, 2004. To date, it looks like it will be about a 55K winner in the first year of the relaunch and we have not done ANYTHING except used web position gold and the multitudes of other "stuff" available on the open netways.

Now we would like to increase the traffic and rankings, but are definitely not going to go into that frustration again unless we hire someone on a commission only basis. No revenue increase? No money. Lots of new reveue? Lots of money. Simple as that.

It seems that as soon as we stopped chasing the "deals" and "hype" and just had the thing rebuilt, and did not care if it got more than a few hundred a month in revenues, it started going real good.

We have though used quite a bit of content ( hundreds of pages on the 2 websites) which I have to believe made a difference. Now we just wrote new content and had it translated in 3 languages and hope to get indexed "over there". We'll see.

Rgrds

[mrvietnam]

Oh, our websites are http://www.loveofasiavietnam.com and http://www.vietventures.com They are primarily my wifes little business in America ( she's Vietnamese and we have been back here in the US for 2 years, this month, I'm an American)

Now if I can only get the traffic to my regular business which is at http://www.usrarecoininvestments.com we'll be happy as clams.

Rgrds

[Tony_V]

leesw -
I did a search in msn for you and using the search phrase; "Christian singles meet other single christians" I found your site comes up on the third page, second from the bottom. I know that this is not the most exciting news you can expect for all your hard work, but I am pointing this out to you to make my own point.
I did a search in msn again with the search phrase "divorced Christians and widowed Christians" and your site comes up in the #1 spot out of 3548 other sites.
Your site is in the #5 spot with this searh phrase in msn "relationships and find godly mates with this Christian dating service"
Ok, the reason I am bringing this up is, might I suggest that you put in your website address in msn to pull up your site, and look at the search phrases that come up with your listing. Each phrase in between commas are what should be presented to the search engines. Keep in mind that if you have a lot of competition, which in your industry you do, you will have to be creative. So to say that you would like to have "Christian singles" as one of your keyphrases and expect it to pay off for you, is something you may find your self only wishing for. Instead, add a word or two to this phrase that others may not be using to help bring you to the top. Here is only one example. "christian single men" or women, or even "find christian single women" etc. change the words around.
I know that if you use any search engine and type in your web address you will see how the rest of the world would see it if they were lucky enough to find it and you might find that you need to work on your search terms if you want to place closer to the top.
Please do not be insulted in any way, as I am also into SEO and I must say that I am having much success. I am happy to share with you what I have found in my research.
Good luck.

[Tony_V]

sfowler, might I suggest you try turning your other keywords into 3 word phrases much like you did with your first keyword 'flue gas analyser' using 3 word keyphrases rather than one brings in some 50 combinations of search terms and I am certain you will find much more favorable results if you put it to the test.

[bhartzer]

that page will never be listed at the top of google, your HTML is not valid for a start.

Whether or not your html is valid or not has absolutely nothing to do with search engine rankings.

As for the Sandbox, the most logical explanation I've heard recently is that Google is 'holding back' certain topics or keyword phrases that are competitive in nature. It's kind of like a librarian--the librarian has a budget, and libraries typically buy a certain number of books each year. They buy books that on subjects that they don't have a lot of books on--if you're selling a book to a library and they already have a lot of books on that subject then they will probably not buy your book. However, if you try to sell they library a book on a subject that the library doesn't have a lot of books on, then chances are the library will buy the book.

The same goes for the Google sandbox. If the content of your site is in a competitive field and there are already a lot of sites in that field, they may put your site in the sandbox. But, if your site offers a lot of information in a field that Google doesn't know a lot about (or doesn't have a lot of pages about that subject), then the site may not be put into the sandbox.

[paulfromwales]

I have always done well optimising my own web sites, until three months ago - then disaster struck. A customer had heard of my success and asked me if I could help him with his new and very expensive database driven Holiday Cottage Web Site. (Yahoo ranking for main keyword = 9, ranking in Google = 789!)

I did absolutely everything I could think of - no improvement. Nothing - Zilch. Google visited every two days, but rankings did not improve. Owner getting really quite desperate as low rankings = no income.

So back to first principles, new web site, new name, new server, but same information. This time static pages with proper titles for each cottage. Same information (no I tell a lie, I amalgamated two pages into one for each cottage so that the content would be different) Dated all pages each time I amended them. Owner spent hours & hours constructing each new page - driven probably by desperation!

Have we succeeded? Well yes & no. Google ranks the new site's pages, in every case, much higher. So it damn well should! Content is now higher up the page,
each page generates its own unique title and the headings are in proper ranking order (H1, H2 etc) modified by style sheets (Your Christian Singles Site needs to do some of this as a starter)

So conventional SE wisdom works then? A definite yes.
I have never done an experiment like this before, but I think that having the almost identical content does enable me to pronounce this as being true.

Static better than database? If each page is going to have the an identical heading with the same wording, and if menu systems dominate the text and if it does not generate conventional headings, then certainly yes!

So what's wrong with my world then? Well page 8 or 10 may be better than page 89 but its still not much use. So whats the problem? In a word - overcrowded marketplace! (This applies to the sites mentioned here) Too many people submitting their cottage with standard wording to each of the sites that feature them. (some had 200+ identical listings)

When Google has read the same text for the nth time, I think it simply opts for who was first - can't prove this, but I have noticed this effect with my own web site - I rank very high for common words such as "used cameras" I am not complaining, but looking at my newer competitors, I can't see why I rank higher than them.

The solution. Well the owner is biting a particularly nasty bullet in an attempt to solve the problem. He is re-writing the text for each cottage - all 1500 of them!

He has joined one of these "exchange a link" chemes - benefit - none that I can see, because all the sites are as desperate as he is to rank, so basically he has found a lot of PR2s & 3s that don't count in the Google scheme of things.

Now to make you all unhappy - DMOZ he applied months & months ago - nothing. Yes, I think it helps - it certainly helped me get a high rank in Google and it only took a month for me - yup - in 1999! (The good old days!)

So the answer - Don't fiddle, it wont cure the problem, you need truly unique & interesting content.
Why?
Answer - lots of high grade sites will point at you.

A hard road, I'm afraid. I know it is hard, because I have been at it for six years now - PR6, 3000+ sites mention me, but its worth it.

Paul

[bhartzer]

If you're interested, we talked about the Google Sandbox a while back, in May 2005.

[benwalsh]

Strange PR5 on some pages and only 4 for home page which itself is high for only 20 backlinks
Do not spend to much time dancing with googlebot well structured content is king, a few suggestions:

• doc type does not match xml style coding

• good title but move it to top directly after html>and ensure unique titles for each page

• JavaScript in head move to remote file placed further down the code

• body> should start h1>keywords h2>..present image map offers little for bots

try for more text approx 500 words per page with good sprinkling of keywords on as many pages as possible pages like about us, how, why, when, and where, etc, Make these pages flat.html ensure that these pages are all interlinked by plain text links with keywords in anchor text.

• loose all those outgoing links in the footer and else where

• also cull links.php

• you could sell ads on a one per page basis,
  appearing on search.php but not on the above .htm

• ask members to subscribe to your free online newsletter (more content) and also sell rotating ads here

• on your .htm pages after you remove the other links apply for google adsense.

site looks good
I was approached by an Australian last year looking to establish the same thing
a Christian contact site but I declined the job
I will send him a link to your site

Ben Walsh
Chapel Hill Tubal Reversal Center
http://www.tubal-reversal.net/