beware recipricol link scammers

[apsadmin]

I am writing this to clue you people in who deal in good faith when exchanging links with other sites. Since there is such a frenzy among us to establish backlinks for page rank and search engine result pages, you have to stay on your toes all the time when assessing link partners. The simple truth is many sites are set up to snare the unwary, and generate 1-way incoming links for them which are more valuable than 2-way recipricols. These sites have no intention of dealing fairly with you, or posting your link in any place googlebot could find it to give you the credit for it. Its all 1-way with the scammers, but take heart, if you know what to look for these sites won't be taking advantage of you.

1. Link only with sites that have a "links", or "resouces" hyperlink posted on the home page in plain HTML text. "Links" or "resouces" buttons coded in programming languages such as javascript can not be seen or followed by googlebot. Therefore any pages they direct to are also invisible to googlebot, so if your on them, your invisible as well. Do not rule these sites out, just because of the script. Many site owners are aware of this and will add a "site map" so that googlebot can use it to reference all the sites internal pages, but without a site map to compensate for the liabilities of the scripting language, I would avoid them as the rule.

2. The site should have a links, or resouces directory on the links page, and so should yours. The reason is obvious. Googlebot will only follow 2 pages deep off the home page normally, and disregard everything else. With the directory, all the link pages stay within the the 2 page deep limit. Example home/linkdirectory/pg1 The linkdirectory is on the links page, and this page is 1 page deep off the home page containing all the different catagorys. When you pick a catagory its resulting page is only 2 pages deep off the home page pg1 which assures it will get indexed and crawled, and if your link is there you will get credit. Another excellent reason for having a catagorized directory is that many times your partners link will not be directly associated with the business you are in and therefore may be seen as having no "relevancy" to your site by google. But if the link is in a catagory that is "relevant" to it, its good, and you will get credit for it.

3. Avoid sites that simply have an endless string of link pages. Example: links pg1,pg2,pg3,pg4,etc.. For the reasons stated above googlebot only follow 2 pages deep, so pg3,pg4, and all others following them will be ignored. Sites like this are link farms by definition, and will eventually incur the wrath of google, which frowns on link farms.

4. Do not assume the site you are considering trading with is good simply because it is listed in the directory of a link exchange service. It has been my experience that link exchanges do not critique their members navigation structures. Knowing this, these scam sites are littered throughout the link exchanges hoping to snare the unwary. The link exchange may ask them for the page they post your link on, but do not check it by googles navigation rules. Scammers will post your link on a page that is not rigged to their sites normal navigation, or buried to deep, or to far away from the home page to be indexed. It is your job to determine the intent of your partner, to either display your link in the open on a page that will get you the credit when it is crawled, or if they intend to bury you deep and scam you for a 1-way incoming, placing you on a page they know will never be crawled.

5. Be wary of sites that link to "bad neigborhoods" ie, porn, hacking, warez and the like. Linking to them is dangerous. If google decides to drop the hammer on them, you could get penalized as well through your association.. Only google "knows" what a bad neighborhood is, but it is basically defined as sites that use illegal, or frowned upon spamming methods. These "types" of sites are notorious for this kind of behaviour, spam, redirects, drive by downloads, cloaks, etc..

6. As a rule, if you cannot follow a sites navigation to find the recipricol links, either can google, so aviod them.

7. Limit the amount of links on your catagory pages to a safe limit of 60 if you can. Pages with to many links get ignored by googlbot as well. There is a lot of debate on the number of links on a page you can actually get away with, some say 80, some say 100, some say more, but 60 is safe. If you get to many links for a certain catagory, think about adding another complimentary catagory where you could add some to relieve the pressure, but try to avoid adding a pg2. This page will be 3 pages deep off the home page, and will probably be ignored by googlebot.

Now, I know this set of guidelines will eliminate an awful lot of sites, but these sites either through ignorance, or intent, are not structured to give you the credit you are seeking for your reciprocol link. If its a case of ignorance, a simple heads up with an email can work wonders. I have many friends who were trying to establish reciprocols and getting nowhere, who were grateful for the advise, made changes, and got partners. Not everyone is up on link protocol, so I would advise giving the benefit of the doubt at first. Remember that potential partners will be critiqing your site for its navigation as well, so practice what you preach.

If, on the other hand its intent, i'll bet you never get a reply, but thats an answer in itself, isn't it? Remember that every time you link up, you are "sharing" your page rank, so it is well worth your while to make sure the courtesy is returned.

[ferret77]

Be wary of sites that link to "bad neigborhoods" ie, porn, hacking, warez and the like. Linking to them is dangerous. If google decides to drop the hammer on them, you could get penalized as well through your association.

The bad neighborhood thing has nothing to with the subject of the site,

also google will follow much deeper then 2 levels into a site

[cbp]

Link only with sites that have a "links", or "resouces" hyperlink posted on the home page in

Not true. None of my sites have links pages - lots of people link to me.

Limit the amount of links on your catagory pages to a safe limit of 60 if you can.

There is no reason to do this.

CBP

[apsadmin]

Well, Mr. Ferret,

I would be most interested on what you base your statement about how far google follows recipricol links off the home page (We are talking about links here). We have all been waiting for an "authority" such as yourself to explain it to us, since it is contrary to my, and many others research. Please, speak up.

[apsadmin]

cbp,

Google has stated that the reason they say 100 links is because Google has a crawl limit of 100k per page. Most webmasters dont pay attention to the filesize but they do pay attention to links. I have heard that if you are an expert with CSS you can get even more mileage, therefore more than 100 links, but I am not an expert with CSS, and assume that most of the readers of this post won't be either.

I was only trying to establish a "safe" limit, worse case scenario to assure the links get indexed. There are other things that can weigh down a page, not limited to links.
Good enough?

Not true. None of my sites have links pages - lots of people link to me.

Well cpb, in all honesty, if i could not "see" the resouces on your web that would assure me that the link would be recipricocated, I would not link to you. Recips are by their nature 2-way. Not having a links page I would venture to say is not the norm, and would be a red flag to most webmasters. Of course you may have content that I'd like to link too for the benefit of my users, but that is outside the subject of recipricol links isn't it? I am sure you have the best intentions, but you cannot assume that of anyone in the linking game.

[cbp]

I posted a message in a thread a couple of days ago quoting GoogleGuy from WMW in which he said up to 250 links per page wuld be fine (provided the page is smaller than 100k)

I have seen Google crawl greater than 500 links on page.

CBP

[Dave Hawley]

The bad neighborhood thing has nothing to with the subject of the site,

Perhaps apsadmin should have used e.g as apposed to i.e. But I believe the point is, these types of sites are often "bad neighborhoods" and are the ones that spam Webmasters for links constantly.

However;

Googlebot will only follow 2 pages deep off the home page normally, and disregard everything else.

There are MANY pages in the Google SERP's that are greater than 2 levels deep. Why do you say "Googlebot will only follow 2 pages deep off the home page.." ?

[apsadmin]

Dear Mr. Hawley,

Thanks for the help on the bad neighborhoods. Yeah, eg would have been better. Thats what I get for ducking my english class in school.

As to the second part of your reply we are talking here about "links" from sites "link pages". The exception I would venture here makes the rule, but perhaps you could post some of these "many" sites you name in googles SERPs and we could clear up these curiousitys for you as to why they were crawled if these "recipricol links" are so distant from the home page.
I would suspect a site map if you have found sites outside the 2 page limit I have stated, but until I see them, I cannot say for certain.

[Dave Hawley]

apsadmin, directories are only one of many that have link pages > 2 levels deep. I'll ask you again;

Why do you say "Googlebot will only follow 2 pages deep off the home page.." ?

[apsadmin]

Dear Mr. Hawley,

Because thats what my research reveals about google, with respect to backlinks. Every serious player in the links game is now using a directory, webmasters, link exchanges, everyone seems to be respecting a 2 page limit, or listing the subcatagories on the link page under the main catagories, which also keeps them within a 2 page limit, or using a site map to compensate for subcatagories in their directories. Sure there are exceptions, but they are not the rule.

Endless link pages without directories, pg1, pg2, pg3, pg4, which contain links not "relevant" to a sites business are link farms by definition, wheras sites that contain the same links in catagories that are relevant to them that respect the 2 page limit, are apparently not, and recieve no penalty. How many of these link farms are constantly complaining in this forum that their links are not getting indexed? Now, I believed the old adage when I first started out that business's should only link to sites that were relevant to them, but looking at SERP results on google you certainly couldn't prove its wisdom in todays market. Sites that are using this technique to backlink hundreds, sometimes thousands of other web sites are winning the SERP wars by getting more "votes" for thier sites than their competitors, assuming they have competitive keyword density, or optimization, to compliment it.

Its all about SERP, page 1 listings, and focused traffic Mr. Hawley, not PR, as so many have confused. Would you rather have a PR7, or a page 1 listing for a popular keyword? Links can be used for either, but SERP usually pays more without a penalty or risk from google by directly trying to trade financially on a sites PR alone. Who cares what the little green bar says (long as it dosen't say 0, lol), when the focus is getting enough backlinks to kick the stuffings out of your competitors and win a potential million dollar page 1 ad placement on the most popular search engine on the planet? PR4's are out there kiking the daylights out of PR7's in the SERP's because they have more web support. PR is a side benefit sure, but certainly not the focus, as some would have you believe. You want the truth? Then follow the money. The money is in SERP's and focused traffic. Nobodys being banned or penalized using a catagorized strategy that respects a 2 page limit. Despite what googles guidelines "infer" about links, putting them into relevant catagories does seem to satisfy the engines requirements, at least for now, and does get them indexed. It is what it is, but we can always use more research if you feel that you have something to add. Everything I've stated can be backed by SERP's, and the link industry on the whole.

So what do you have that is going to prove us wrong, eh? C'mon Mr. Hawley, you called, i've shown you my cards, now lets see whats in your hand.

[rocos]

>>There is a lot of debate on the number of links on a page you can actually get away with, some say 80, some say 100, some say more, but 60 is safe.


Google says 100.
http://www.google.com/webmasters/

[cbp]

>>There is a lot of debate on the number of links on a page you can actually get away with, some say 80, some say 100, some say more, but 60 is safe.

Google says 100.
http://www.google.com/webmasters/

How many times in a few days is this going to come up...

That is a design/user guideline - you do NOT get penalized for going over it.

Did you read my message above?:

I posted a message in a thread a couple of days ago quoting GoogleGuy from WMW in which he said up to 250 links per page wuld be fine (provided the page is smaller than 100k)
I have seen Google crawl greater than 500 links on page.

CBP

[Dave Hawley]

apsadmin, all I'm asking about is this one statement from you;

Googlebot will only follow 2 pages deep off the home page normally, and disregard everything else

If that were true, how do directories get deep crawled?

Because thats what my research reveals about google, with respect to backlinks

That's not much of an answer at all, in fact it looks as if you are being evasive. It's no better than saying, because I say so.

You must remember, that it is not I making any grand statements, it is you. I'm simply asking "Why do you say "Googlebot will only follow 2 pages deep off the home page..". You seem unable to answer it and back-up your statement.

[pedstersplanet]

Ok, let me get this straight....... If you have catergorised links that have nothing in common with the site, you say its a link farm?
Directories, like ours, have categorised many links, and we ask for a link back (not compulsery tho) - whats the difference?

Anyone explain?

[apsadmin]

My point is that no one is being penalized for a catagorized directory. Not me, not the industry, not any other websites that uses this strategy. Despite the propoganda that is regularly being shot througout this forum by Mr. Hawley and his lot, this works, and is winning the serp wars. Anyone that dosen't think so, needs to roll up their sleeves, head for google, and smell the coffee. Don't take it from me, please. Do your own searchs, and find out for yourselves. As I stated before, I used to believe just like Mr. Hawley, until I went out there myself and did my own research by evaluating the SERPs. It dosen't matter what I, or MR. Hawley thinks. It only matters what google thinks, and what they reward. Google rewards backlinks, they respect catagorized link, or resources directorys, and thats that.
Mr. Hawley, all we have is "research", pertaining to google. We study what works, and what dosen't. You may not like the news, but shooting the messenger is not going to change anything.
I ask you for the third time sir, where is your research that disproves it?

cbp
You may think i'm a link farm, but what is important is that google does not, so that arguement isn't impressing anyone. And who are you to decide for my users what sites they may want to visit? Casinos order business cards too, so do their users, and my having a link there is just good business, besides the added benefit of giving me one more "vote" to pound my competiton with in the SERPs, but thats extra and not the reason for building it. My catagorized directory is not built to "solely" aquire backlinks to improve my ranking, like you'd like to believe. It is built to get my business out on as many other web sites that use the products and services I sell as I can find. The link is in a "catagory" that is "relevant" to it, and thats good enough for google, so frankly I suggest you read the guidelines again. If you think thats bad business, you just don't understand economics, or basic promotion. Thankfully, google does.

[cbp]

Directories, like ours, have categorised many links, and we ask for a link back (not compulsery tho) - whats the difference?

Link farms want you to link back to them. Directories do not.

cbp
You may think i'm a link farm, but what is important is that google does not, so that arguement isn't impressing anyone. And who are you to decide for my users what sites they may want to visit?

You have all the characterstics of a link farm that Google's algorithm could use to determine if is a links farm vs a directory. How do you know that Google is not penalising you for the "poor quality" signals? You are welcome to take the risk - I wouldn't.

CBP

[cbp]

Sorry, meant to respond to this:

Casinos order business cards too, so do their users,

You know that and I know that, but what does the dumb computer algorithm know about that - especially given that its is not as dumb as before and is getter much smarter in its sematic analysis.

CBP[/quote]

[ferret77]

cdp

one thing you have to take into consideration is googles motives

as long as the search results are relevent google is happy

Link farms want you to link back to them. Directories do not.

No directores want you to pay them cash, that makes them more honorable right?

Where do you get your logic from

this is a link farm by the way

http://www.free-for-all-links-page.com/

and even it is not penalized

You are welcome to take the risk - I wouldn't

You see you hide who are so its hard to tell if you are just an armchair quarter back or super cautionous seo

there is an old saying scared money doesn't make money

[cbp]

me a

super cautionous seo

CBP

[ferret77]

post link so i can learn the ethical way to do seo