Keywords and Title Tags

scot184 · #1 (**permalink**) 06-13-2004, 06:20 PM

A couple questions regarding the title tag and keywords that make them up.

I have a rather sloppy title, filled with keywords, and no real sentence structure. But I get high rankings for most of my desired keywords within that title. This brings up several questions.

1. How long should a title be? I've heard it should only be around 60 characters or so. Clearly you can't get more than 3 keywords with a title that long. And since my secondary pages don't rank at all, I rely on my index page.

2. If you have keywords in the title such as pet food, and pet food supply, would the pet food supply also boost the pet food keyword because it contains the same info? Basically I have pet classifieds as a keyword, but I also have keywords in the title tag that say "dog pet classifieds" and "cat pet classifieds". Is this redundant?

3. Does the placement/order of keywords in the title tag matter. And do the keywords affect each other within the title. Meaning do contextual keywords help more than non-sequiturs.

I suppose these questions are aimed for rankings in Google, but they can be applied to other engines as well. I know that Yahoo seems to rely more on tags than links, along with msn and ask and the others. Any thoughts, comments, answers are appreciated.

Thanks.

Todd

nikao · #2 (**permalink**) 06-14-2004, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scot184

A couple questions regarding the title tag and keywords that make them up.

I have a rather sloppy title, filled with keywords, and no real sentence structure. But I get high rankings for most of my desired keywords within that title. This brings up several questions.

1. How long should a title be? I've heard it should only be around 60 characters or so. Clearly you can't get more than 3 keywords with a title that long. And since my secondary pages don't rank at all, I rely on my index page.

2. If you have keywords in the title such as pet food, and pet food supply, would the pet food supply also boost the pet food keyword because it contains the same info? Basically I have pet classifieds as a keyword, but I also have keywords in the title tag that say "dog pet classifieds" and "cat pet classifieds". Is this redundant?

3. Does the placement/order of keywords in the title tag matter. And do the keywords affect each other within the title. Meaning do contextual keywords help more than non-sequiturs.

I suppose these questions are aimed for rankings in Google, but they can be applied to other engines as well. I know that Yahoo seems to rely more on tags than links, along with msn and ask and the others. Any thoughts, comments, answers are appreciated.

Thanks.

Todd

1:dont forget the initial purpose of a title. Google may not penalize you yet for stuffing keywords in the title, but it is certainly a wrong usage of the title tag. Be creative, and stick indeed to those 2 or 3 keywords in the title

2:since the title tag is different from a keyword metatag, i think using both pet food and pet food supply isn't necessary. if someone searches for pet food, google is gonna look if those words are in your title.. if google finds pet food supply.. it finds pet food.. so don't use both.

3:im not sure about this one. But always keep in mind the initial purpose of the tags (same with title tags in links and alt tags in images.)
and realise its treated as 1 text, not like the keywords metatag where you seperate your keywords..

this is my opinion on this though.. i might be wrong.. and would be glad to hear so if i am :)
hope this helps a little

scot184 · #3 (**permalink**) 06-14-2004, 02:11 PM

Thanks for your help Nikao. I feel as if any sites that aren't keyword stuffing aren't in the top 10 of the serps for Yahoo and MSN. It seems like the only way to stay near the top for those engines. For Google it seems to be a different matter entirely, but stuffers still prevail there as well. Any comments, suggestions?

bhartzer · #4 (**permalink**) 06-14-2004, 02:24 PM

When looking at your title tag, don't forget that it should accurately describe the page that you're on. If you are adding unnecessary keywords, consider making a new page to go after those unnecessary keywords rather than stuffing them into your title tag.

Also, think of the keyword density of the title tag. If you have too many words, the density goes down, thus diluting the impact of each of the keywords.

scot184 · #5 (**permalink**) 06-14-2004, 09:04 PM

People talk about keyword dilution and keyword stuffing, but all the sites in Yahoo, MSN, and the lesser engines have serps filled with sites that basically just serve ads from AdSense and other affiliate programs. They set up pages with hypenated domain names and just throw some jibberish on the page and then list 500 or so keywords all in anchor text on the page. And then they end up in the top 5 for a good number of keywords. So how do we compete with that? It seems very problematic for Google considering a lot of these people are running AdSense on the pages. What do they do in this situation? I guess its a judgement call. But for the other more meta-driven engines, this is an increasing problem. Check out this site to see exactly what I mean:

http://www.vetricare.com/pet_classifieds.htm

The text on that page says the following:

Pet Classifieds .. the best source online ! How is it to have a pet – say a dog? In the beginning it is a hard job, no doubt about it. You'll need all your experience and have to be very patient and considerate.
But the reward is coming very soon: A happy welcome, when getting home and a faithful friend if you are sad. Either your pet is a dog or a perhaps a cat, it will always understand you.and sometimes you will need Pet Classifieds

That is LAUGHABLE. They don't even offer pet classifieds. They simply mention it a few times. Can you believe that is #1 for pet classifieds on Yahoo?!??!?! Unbelievable. It's broken English at best that makes utterly no sense.

Duncan Pollock · #6 (**permalink**) 06-14-2004, 10:23 PM

scot184: You're right to be frustrated, but I don't see why you couldn't/shouldn't draw Google's attention to what vetricare are doing. True, their basic text is rather pathetic (pet-ethic?!!), but I'm fairly certain that they're in their top position because the keywords in the vertical list below this "opening pitch" all link to the page itself!
This is an example of manipulation with a vengeance and I can't imagine Google approves of it. However, like any search engine, they're at the mercy of a spider that doesn't -- and can't -- see things the way that you and I can do. And given the hundreds of thousands of sites being indexed, it's a miracle -- to my mind anyway -- that results are as revelant as they so often are.
When a webmaster deliberately sets out to fool the spiders, it seems equally fair for us to "rat on them."
And I think you should do just that with a clear conscience!

Duncan

scot184 · #7 (**permalink**) 06-15-2004, 01:20 AM

I'm with you Duncan. Obviously it isn't the search engine's fault. They are doing rather well considering so many people out there are constantly manipulating the algorithm. It's like spam really. They constantly need to update the code and block new tactics. The horrible thing is that individual businesses suffer in the meantime, and the results can be thoroughly skewed. This is why many people turn to PPC and abandon organic search. I think these people should be exposed. It isn't a legitimate way of doing business. I've even seen posters on webproworld that take part in these practices. Tis' a shame.

Andilinks · #8 (**permalink**) 06-15-2004, 02:42 AM

Well here's a title tag keyword tip that I don't want to get around too much because if too many use it, the value becomes diluted. So this is just for those lucky few who happen to read this thread.

I put the current year, "2004" into my title tag and I was amazed to find that this search term quickly became one of the top ten bringing visitors to my site...

Visitors who don't like stale sites, who can blame them?

Andi

scot184 · #9 (**permalink**) 06-15-2004, 05:34 AM

So you're saying people search for the term "2004" alone and find you in the top rankings? If so, I suppose it works well for your site since you are a launch pad onto a broad spectrum of other sites. Please advise.

Todd

nikao · #10 (**permalink**) 06-15-2004, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scot184

So you're saying people search for the term "2004" alone and find you in the top rankings? If so, I suppose it works well for your site since you are a launch pad onto a broad spectrum of other sites. Please advise.

Todd

i think he tried to say that people add 2004 to their search terms.. to make sure only updated sites turn up.

so in your case people search for;
pet food, 2004