sometimes a little information IS a dangerous thing

calmwave · #1 (**permalink**) 10-27-2003, 04:07 PM

In checking my page rank today, I notice I plummeted from a 4 to a 0. In scanning a few posts on this forum, it appears I must have done something to get penalized.

At first I thought it was a link to company with a large link page. Deleted that one.

In reading further, it may be that my simple logo (all text until I can find one I like that my budget can afford - read fr'ee), may be the culprit.

After reading a post on WPW advising newbies on web basics, I recently altered the logo on each page to link back to the main page, albeit, without the tell-tale link underlining and color change (so as to not alter my logo).

Is this the likely reason for the penalty? Is this what is meant by cloaking?

I also have about 4 affiliate links, two which were on while my page rank was still 4, and two added within the last 2 weeks. Also acting on a tip for newbies, they are pointed to a "redirection url" to, er, cloak the tracking code. Is this what they mean by cloaking (the bad kind)? I assumed not since this was on my site from the start for at least one of the affiliate links.

Thanks for your help, all.

janeth · #2 (**permalink**) 10-27-2003, 07:24 PM

There is not a problem with your pr it is a pr4.

softwaresubmit · #3 (**permalink**) 10-27-2003, 07:33 PM

PR 4 it is, nothing to be worried about.

By the way, do you really think that all that font size/family/color changes are good for you...?

calmwave · #4 (**permalink**) 10-27-2003, 07:50 PM

Hi Janeth,
Thank you. Sure enough shortly after posting my message it was showing as 4. I'm not sure why it was showing 0 before but after looking over some google posts, it may well have been the http://vehiclecardpockets.com as opposed to http://.www.vehiclecardpockets.com

calmwave · #5 (**permalink**) 10-27-2003, 08:06 PM

Hello softwaresubmit,
Thanks for your response. At this point, the site is completely Arial, with one instance of Times Roman (altho toying with the idea of changing everything over to Verdana Ref once I learn CSS).

I didn't think 2 colors in addition the mostly black text was excessive, paticularly further down the page where there are few graphics to break the monotony of black text. Nonetheless, you've given me pause for thought. Thanks for that.

PS. You may want to correct a typo on your home page... Step 4 of the flashing/rotating text shows "Monthly site resumission".

Thanks again, both of you. I assume therefore that neither concern I raised has any merit - ie removing telltale link attributes(?) from logo or redirecting my affiliate URL links - is considered hidden links and cloaking, respectively.

softwaresubmit · #6 (**permalink**) 10-28-2003, 03:47 AM

This post should help you understand, what I had in mind with the fonts... :-)

http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=7254

paco · #7 (**permalink**) 10-28-2003, 02:16 PM

I will try to explain what page cloaking, I think some of you might not quite understand what it is :)

Page cloaking is when your web server serves different versions of a web document depending on who, what or where the user (or spider) is. One can easily get complete IP lists of all the different search engines spiders and create a .htaccess file that will redirect these IP addresses to another version of the homepage (or any other webpage) on a particular site. One easy way to know if cloaking is involved is to use the "cached" link in Google's results page. If the page in Google's cache is different then the one you see when you go directly to the page, then the page has been cloaked and you can report this to Google because it is not permitted.

Pacomachine

calmwave · #8 (**permalink**) 10-28-2003, 02:24 PM

ouch.... :-)

don't know if I'm guilty of that many infractions...

Brittany may want to move this into the appropriate forum....

Have removed the few instances of Navy Blue (altho I may rethink that) and the 1 instance of Times Roman (except for the links, which won't change no matter I do).

I believe that the bolding is necessary to draw the 1st time visitor's eye who generally scans a page for information to see if staying is worthwhile. Placeholders, if you will. Especially when the page requires scrolling down as mine does. And as long as the whole page isn't in bold italics, there is no harm in using it sparingly.

Are there particular areas where the infractions are most applicable to my site? I've obviously been looking at it too long that a fresh pair of eyes would help. All responses welcome...

calmwave · #9 (**permalink**) 10-28-2003, 02:27 PM

Thank you for the definition, Paco. Glad I'm not guilty of, and certainly don't have the expertise for, that kind of subterfuge.

How about hidden links? Would a text logo with the "link underline" and blue color removed be worthy of penalty?

RISTMO · #10 (**permalink**) 10-28-2003, 03:02 PM

Nope. Nothing wrong with that. I (and practically every site also) take off the borders from my logo images. What you got with your website was most likely just the Google Toolbar giving you a false report. I bet you could ask anyone else to check at the same time and they would have gotten a PR of 4. Google does that to me sometimes, but it's not a problem. Just don't try to do anything "bad" and your site should be fine. Being linked to from a link farm is the main way to get in trouble. Except for that, as long as you don't try to "cheat", you probably won't get penalized for it.

Rick

Black Knight · #11 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RISTMO

Being linked to from a link farm is the main way to get in trouble.

GoogleGuy had a mantra that helps people remember about how linking can either help or harm you which goes like this:
"Who links to you can help you, but never harm you. Who you link to can harm you, but never help you."

Being linked to from anyone won't hurt you at all. If it could, any SEO could open up a link farm on a spare domain and link it to all their competitors.

It is only the links you control, the ones on your own pages, that can get you into trouble. Google hates link exchanging, and has shut down as many reciporocal link rings as it can find, from the original "Link Buddies" and the "Hallway Links Co-op" (late Nineties), right on through the PRadnetwork, and keeps on going.

If you put links on your site just to attempt to fool the engine that you are more popular than you are, Google will penalise you. Linking to sites known by Google to, as Google call it, manipulate their PageRank, can earn you an automatic penalty. Link to too many 'bad neighbourhoods', or cross-link your own sites heavily, and the automated penalty can be applied - PR0 (PageRank Zero).

Derald · #12 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 09:06 AM

I'm not able to determine my page rank because I'm on a Mac. I've gone to the google directory and seen the green bar.

Can anyone tell me my page rank or how I can find out what it is on the Mac platform?

Thanks,
Derald

minstrel · #13 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derald

I'm not able to determine my page rank because I'm on a Mac. I've gone to the google directory and seen the green bar.

Can anyone tell me my page rank or how I can find out what it is on the Mac platform?

I just checked it now and got PR = 3.

No idea about how to do it on a MAC though... sorry.

RISTMO · #14 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 01:44 PM

Sorry about that. Yeah--it's linking TO a link farm that's bad, not being linked to from one.

But what is defined as a "link farm"? There are lots of directories that are good and respectable and rank well in Google. All those directories do is link to sites and be linked to back from those sites. It seems that the more directories that link to you, the better, so what's the difference between a "link farm" and a directory?

Rick

JayDrake · #15 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derald

I'm not able to determine my page rank because I'm on a Mac. I've gone to the google directory and seen the green bar.

Can anyone tell me my page rank or how I can find out what it is on the Mac platform?

Thanks,
Derald

I don't know how you can find the PR that the google toolbar gives you, but you can go to directory.google.com, find out what category your site is in, then look there. This still doesn't give you a number like the toolbar does, but if you view the source you can determine a relative value based on the width of the bar image that you can then compare against the other sites in the category.

Black Knight · #16 (**permalink**) 10-29-2003, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RISTMO

so what's the difference between a "link farm" and a directory?

The answer to that is pretty simple, and not great news for many I'm afraid:
A directory doesn't ask for a link back to them.

When was the last time you heard of the Open Directory, Yahoo, JoeAnt or any other genuine web directory refusing to list you unless you link to them? :)

A link farm is a site (or part of a site) devised to grow and cultivate links.

Google don't punish all link farms, just those who take their efforts just that bit too far, and excessively manipulate linking (often through excessive crosslinking of multiple domains, whether those domains are owned by one person or by a group of webmasters cooperating). Those it calls 'bad neighbourhoods'.

Naturally, Google is deliberately vague about how much cross-linking is 'excessive'.

rlrouse · #17 (**permalink**) 10-30-2003, 09:06 AM

... so what's the difference between a "link farm" and a directory?

I think it has less to do with asking for a return link than the real purpose of the Directory.

A typical link farm has links from all types of unrelated sites, usually randomly displayed on one or more pages. Quite often, the links will consist of nothing but URL's (no descriptions or even titles). This type of links page is in place for the sole purpose of enhancing SE rankings and is virtually worthless from a user's point of view. And yes, a reciprocal link will be a must.

A Directory (or links page), on the other hand, is a useful resource for your site's visitors. It provides links to other sites that compliment your site by providing additional (or alternative) information, products, or services that the user came to your site looking for. A return link may or may not be required for inclusion, depending on the site.

For a couple of years now I have advised my clients to always place a directory (or links page) on their new sites. This serves two purposes:

1 - Most importantly, if done properly, a quality Directory is very beneficial for your users, regardless of the type of site (yes, ecommerce sites included).

2 - Again, if done properly, a good links page will indeed help boost your SE rankings. But this shouldn't be the primary purpose of the links page. If it is, you have just created a link farm.

My clients' sites end up ranking well without incurring penalties because the Directories are created properly.

And if you offer quality products at competitive prices, you needn't worry about losing business to your link partners. Providing your visitors with a quality Directory demonstrates that you have enough confidence in your own information, products, and services that you don't shy away from linking to potential competitors. Of course, for this to be effective, you must truly offer your potential customers a better value than the competition.

The bottom line is that Google and the other search engines won't ban or penalize a site for having a Directory or links page. The Google index is well populated with highly ranked websites that use links pages (and continue to rank well after several years in the index). It's all in the intent.

minstrel · #18 (**permalink**) 10-30-2003, 12:45 PM

Excellent post, rlrouse! I agree completely.

You should paste that text on to your website somewhere...

allen445 · #19 (**permalink**) 10-30-2003, 10:38 PM

i am a new man in the here , but i like this , i want to know how i can list our company in your website . we are amanufacturer in china , i'd like to send our company information by your website . please kindly tell me how i can list our company web site? our web site: www.dwlucky.com
thank you very much [/url][/list][/list][/i][/quote]

minstrel · #20 (**permalink**) 11-08-2003, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allen445

i am a new man in the here , but i like this , i want to know how i can list our company in your website . we are a manufacturer in china , i'd like to send our company information by your website . please kindly tell me how i can list our company web site? our web site: www.dwlucky.com
thank you very much

Hello, allen445:

If you want to link your site to that of another member, try going to that person's message and clicking on either the "Private" button or the "Email" button at the end of the message. This will allow you to send that person a private email with your information.

On the other hand, if you are looking for people generally to exchange links with, go to the Link Exchange forum on this website and tell people there about your website.