Who is doing all the Bumping?

LD · #1 (**permalink**) 11-19-2008, 09:17 PM

I'm kinda new to AdWords and am finding regular AdWorsd click-bids of around $0.85 per click have been bumped up - from $4.00 to $6.50 to even up to $15.00 per click on some keywords! Is this someones attempt to hord the keywords and block out those that don't want to up their bids or is it Google trying to increase revenue?

carpediem · #2 (**permalink**) 11-20-2008, 09:55 PM

Hey LD,

Is it a new account?

LD · #3 (**permalink**) 11-20-2008, 10:07 PM

Account and campaign relatively new for this domain. Everything looked pretty normal at first - bids seemed reasonable and then all of a sudden, the bids on those keywords I was using went through the roof. I experienced this on another campaign maybe 4 months old - different industry, different domain - bids of 0.65 went to $6.00 and over so my ads wouldn't show.

carpediem · #4 (**permalink**) 11-20-2008, 10:35 PM

If it is a new account, you probably need to bite the bullet for the first few weeks, depending on your budget. Keep a close eye on the spending and get the CTR up.

Are the new bids of $6.00 showing via the "first page estimate?"? Have all your ads been reviewed? How's your Quality Score? How do you have your campaigns structured? Are you geo-targeting? It's hard to say concretely your problem without knowing more.

Danielle

LD · #5 (**permalink**) 11-21-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carpediem

If it is a new account, you probably need to bite the bullet for the first few weeks, depending on your budget. Keep a close eye on the spending and get the CTR up.

Are the new bids of $6.00 showing via the "first page estimate?"? Have all your ads been reviewed? How's your Quality Score? How do you have your campaigns structured? Are you geo-targeting? It's hard to say concretely your problem without knowing more.

Danielle

Danielle,

Thank you for your input. I upped the max CPC and now the ridiculously high bids on those keywords are gone. I'm not sure what you mean by "first page estimate". Yes - all keywords are showing and most are getting good "quality". Yes the campaign is GEO targeted. Hmmmm I'm going to have to watch this a little closer for odd variances that appear for no apparent reason.

carpediem · #6 (**permalink**) 11-21-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

I'm not sure what you mean by "first page estimate".

First page bid estimate:

If you saw something like this?

Do you have matching options for your keywords set up? Exact [], Phrase "", and/or Broad? Make sure you keep up the click through rate on the EXACT match of your keywords.

Danielle

dburdon · #7 (**permalink**) 11-21-2008, 02:32 PM

LD,

you're about to learn a harsh lesson. Google Adwords can be a valuable marketing tool. However, remember they operate a monopoly and have strategic advantage over advertisers in that hold and control all the information regarding bids and budgets.

Firstly I'd try out Yahoo and compare the quality of traffic. Secondly, build a contingency position in organic search and other ways of generating site traffic.

Dinghus · #8 (**permalink**) 11-21-2008, 04:29 PM

This is one of the tricks/loop holes in Google. I found that if you bid really really high you probably won't have to pay it, but it pretty much blocks out other people. it is strange that it doesn't do it all the time but sometimes I bid on a keyword and Google tells me that I need to bid some really stupid amount or my ad won't show at all. At first I thought it was because somebody else was targeting the same URL (affiliate marketing) but that didn't account for it when I changed the URL to a landing page I had on my site.

So finally 1 day (feeling rich) I bid the stupid amount. I got a ton of traffic but at a fraction of what I had bid. When I went and did a search to see the SERP mine was the only PPC ad on the page. Really really weird.

I'd love to know why this happens so I can make use of it all the time.

LD · #9 (**permalink**) 11-21-2008, 05:23 PM

I was thinking of doing something similar, but I was thinking that if I out-bid the high bidder, and then the previously high bidder put in a bid just under my new bid and did a couple of "clicks" from a keyword phrase that triggers my ad, I'd be charged a click price between my high bid and his/her slightly lower bid. Long sentence, but I'd reach my daily max in a couple of clicks and disappear for the day.

LD · #10 (**permalink**) 11-21-2008, 05:47 PM

I also like the tools offered in AdWords for more than just AdWords efforts, and frequenting this forum has given a good amount of insight into the Google "monopoly" topic. The client wanted some immediate response while a currently developing organic effort is building momentum. Maybe Yahoo might have been a better choice for PPC. Having said that, I am still interested in determining whether it's an automated internal Google response or an external source causing the drastic bid price differences.

carpediem · #11 (**permalink**) 11-21-2008, 06:06 PM

Hey LD,

In regards to Yahoo Search Marketing, keep in mind that a large portion of your ads will be served on parked domains and search partners. Even though Yahoo recently added the feature to block 500 domains, that doesn't come close to the amount that you would need to exclude to only be able to serve ads on the Yahoo search network only.

However, Yahoo can convert well depending on the market you are serving. Generally we stay away from Yahoo for most clients as it hasn't been a good fit and has poor conversions.

MSN AdCenter is almost purely search network, which is great, but it's a shame that they don't get more traffic.

Good Luck,

Danielle

Terry Van Horne · #12 (**permalink**) 11-21-2008, 10:26 PM

You see this a lot because if 5 people all bid $1 and the sixth bids .20 the fifth spot pays .21 etc. So no matter what the top or default bid is set at, the click is charged .01 more then the spot below it. There are other factors like QualityScore and CTR but that's pretty much, IMO, how the top bids prices get pushed up much higher than the actual cost.

Terry Van Horne · #13 (**permalink**) 11-21-2008, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carpediem

Hey LD,

In regards to Yahoo Search Marketing, keep in mind that a large portion of your ads will be served on parked domains and search partners. Even though Yahoo recently added the feature to block 500 domains, that doesn't come close to the amount that you would need to exclude to only be able to serve ads on the Yahoo search network only.

That's why Yahoo! is where ROI goes to die!!!!!!!!!!

LD · #14 (**permalink**) 11-22-2008, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry Van Horne

You see this a lot because if 5 people all bid $1 and the sixth bids .20 the fifth spot pays .21 etc. So no matter what the top or default bid is set at, the click is charged .01 more then the spot below it. There are other factors like QualityScore and CTR but that's pretty much, IMO, how the top bids prices get pushed up much higher than the actual cost.

So if my bid is .85 on a keyword and I am receiving impressions and some clicks as I tweak things out and one day when I go in to the CP and I see $15.00 (truely - this is what I witnessed on a particular keyword) as the high bid on that keyword, is this someone bidding a rediculous amount to scare bidders off and position their ads to show up more often and in better position?

Having said that, say I lose sight of reality and as a test, "up" my bid to a second highest bid of $10.00 on that keyword. If someone uses that keyword phrase which triggers our ads to show and they click on the high bidders ad, is that account charged $10.01 for that click?

carpediem · #15 (**permalink**) 11-22-2008, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Having said that, say I lose sight of reality and as a test, "up" my bid to a second highest bid of $10.00 on that keyword. If someone uses that keyword phrase which triggers our ads to show and they click on the high bidders ad, is that account charged $10.01 for that click?

No, you are never charged more than your Max CPC.

Quote:

So if my bid is .85 on a keyword and I am receiving impressions and some clicks as I tweak things out and one day when I go in to the CP and I see $15.00 (truely - this is what I witnessed on a particular keyword) as the high bid on that keyword, is this someone bidding a rediculous amount to scare bidders off and position their ads to show up more often and in better position?

No, here's how CPC's are calculated:
How much do I pay for a click on my ad on a search page? What about if my ad is the only one showing? - AdWords Help Center

carpediem · #16 (**permalink**) 11-22-2008, 01:47 AM

Quote:

LD,

you're about to learn a harsh lesson. Google Adwords can be a valuable marketing tool. However, remember they operate a monopoly and have strategic advantage over advertisers in that hold and control all the information regarding bids and budgets.

Yup, the Google Advertising "landscape" has changed, esp. with the recent updates. Not a super time to make a debut.

~Danielle

Terry Van Horne · #17 (**permalink**) 11-22-2008, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LD

So if my bid is .85 on a keyword and I am receiving impressions and some clicks as I tweak things out and one day when I go in to the CP and I see $15.00 (truely - this is what I witnessed on a particular keyword) as the high bid on that keyword, is this someone bidding a rediculous amount to scare bidders off and position their ads to show up more often and in better position??

Does Google tell you the high bid? At best it tells you the position your bid places you. That is why there are 5 people all bidding the same amount. Someone got tired of guessing and chose to bid at what they felt would scare people off. That will drop in a hurry if someone puts a bid a few dollars above the current second position. That also indicates that $15 bid indicates:
1. Scary large margins
2. Managed by an idiot or someone who is very savvy about how the top bid works
3. Someone who is willing to gamble that no one locks in that second place that could hurt the ROI

The bad news for you is there are so many poorly run campaigns that don't realize what is going on and keep pushing the second bid higher trying to get to #1. Then you have the person who put that in as a default.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LD

Having said that, say I lose sight of reality and as a test, "up" my bid to a second highest bid of $10.00 on that keyword. If someone uses that keyword phrase which triggers our ads to show and they click on the high bidders ad, is that account charged $10.01 for that click?

Yeup, I also wouldn't do $10 a few extra dollars should do the trick if there is a lot of clicks. That may also put a damper on the impressions for the top position if the budget is not set to accomadate your bid.

what would I do?
Start a new adGroup with a low budget to start. Run it at low traffic times. I would set the adGroup up using the scheduler to randomly turn the campaign on and off (that way it's harder for them to figure it out). I would change the schedule every week. Write ads that will have crappy CTR. This time of year just add "no free shipping" to the ad by the looks of things almost everyone is doing free shipping so...

.

Sit back and laugh as the person who thought they were so smart tries to figure out where and possibly how their plan blew up.

LD · #18 (**permalink**) 11-22-2008, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Sit back and laugh as the person who thought they were so smart tries to figure out where and possibly how their plan blew up.

lol - I like your thinking!

deepsand · #19 (**permalink**) 11-22-2008, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinghus

This is one of the tricks/loop holes in Google. I found that if you bid really really high you probably won't have to pay it, but it pretty much blocks out other people. it is strange that it doesn't do it all the time but sometimes I bid on a keyword and Google tells me that I need to bid some really stupid amount or my ad won't show at all. At first I thought it was because somebody else was targeting the same URL (affiliate marketing) but that didn't account for it when I changed the URL to a landing page I had on my site.

So finally 1 day (feeling rich) I bid the stupid amount. I got a ton of traffic but at a fraction of what I had bid. When I went and did a search to see the SERP mine was the only PPC ad on the page. Really really weird.

I'd love to know why this happens so I can make use of it all the time.

You cannot block other's ads from be presented; you can only affect your own position within the list of those presented.

That no other ads may have been momentarily displayed was coincidental, and in no way caused by your bid.

deepsand · #20 (**permalink**) 11-22-2008, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LD

I was thinking of doing something similar, but I was thinking that if I out-bid the high bidder, and then the previously high bidder put in a bid just under my new bid and did a couple of "clicks" from a keyword phrase that triggers my ad, I'd be charged a click price between my high bid and his/her slightly lower bid. Long sentence, but I'd reach my daily max in a couple of clicks and disappear for the day.

Yes, that can and does happen.

deepsand · #21 (**permalink**) 11-22-2008, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry Van Horne

That's why Yahoo! is where ROI goes to die!!!!!!!!!!

That really does depend on the product or service being offered; for some, the ROI on Yahoo significantly exceeds that of Google. Bear in mind that the demographics of the various SEs varies.

datetopia · #22 (**permalink**) 11-23-2008, 06:46 PM

Move to niche related keywords that have less competition - that way you attract many visitors with minimum costs.

LD · #23 (**permalink**) 11-23-2008, 08:31 PM

I increased my bid on several keyword phrases and one in particular up a little bit to $1.10 per click and now my CP indicates that my "Bid is below the first page bid estimate of $16.00".

LD · #24 (**permalink**) 11-23-2008, 08:37 PM

I'm looking up and down my list of keywords and although they are active, they are way below some of the current first page bid of $2.50, $4.75, and I just found one bid currently at $20.00!! This is insane.

deepsand · #25 (**permalink**) 11-23-2008, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LD

I increased my bid on several keyword phrases and one in particular up a little bit to $1.10 per click and now my CP indicates that my "Bid is below the first page bid estimate of $16.00".

Bear in mind that the "Estimated bid to show on the first page" is based on the Quality Score of the Ad for the keyword in question; the higher the Quality Score, the higher an ad for that keyword will place for any given max. bid.

An estimate of $16.00 does not mean that others are necessarily paying that much to be on page 1.

deepsand · #26 (**permalink**) 11-23-2008, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LD

I'm looking up and down my list of keywords and although they are active, they are way below some of the current first page bid of $2.50, $4.75, and I just found one bid currently at $20.00!! This is insane.

These numbers are not actual bids. See Who is doing all the Bumping?

What are your Quality Scores for these keywords?

LD · #27 (**permalink**) 11-24-2008, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deepsand

Bear in mind that the "Estimated bid to show on the first page" is based on the Quality Score of the Ad for the keyword in question; the higher the Quality Score, the higher an ad for that keyword will place for any given max. bid.

An estimate of $16.00 does not mean that others are necessarily paying that much to be on page 1.

So if I tweak my ad to better reflect the keyword phrase I am using which, according to the current bid is $20 to show on the first page, and perhaps up my bid a little, that first page bid amount of $20 should drop? And it really isn't someone bidding an exorbitant amount to scare bidders off and is more likely that it's an AdWords formula? And that would lend to or apply to the other keywords bids that are currently between $5.00-$16.00?

deepsand · #28 (**permalink**) 11-24-2008, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LD

So if I tweak my ad to better reflect the keyword phrase I am using which, according to the current bid is $20 to show on the first page, and perhaps up my bid a little, that first page bid amount of $20 should drop?

It's not the Ad content alone which determines the Quality Score (QS), but also the content of the target page pointed to by the destination URL; the greater the match between the keyword(s) and the target page, the better.

Another recently introduced factor is the loading time of the target page; Ads whose target pages are slow to load will see their Quality Scores suffer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LD

And it really isn't someone bidding an exorbitant amount to scare bidders off and is more likely that it's an AdWords formula? And that would lend to or apply to the other keywords bids that are currently between $5.00-$16.00?

It is important to note that, regardless of Quality Score, one will never pay more than ones maximum bid amount. However, with a good enough QS, relative to those of competing Ads, one can place ahead of a competing Ad but pay less than is being paid by the competitor.

Also, the Quality Scores that one is competing against are dynamic, just as are the bids. This means that your competitors are trying not merely to out-bid you to the extent possible, but are also having to deal with the effects of their own QSs vis-a-vis those of others.

So, that $20 "Estimated bid to show on the first page" you observed does not necessarily mean that there is a competitor who is willing to pay that much simply to "scare" off others, but perhaps one whose QS is so low that he's forced to bid high in order to gain visibility and/or determine how much he really needs to bid in order to achieve his best results.

Remember, this is an auction; your competitors are forced to engage in the same kind of guessing game that you are.

LD · #29 (**permalink**) 11-24-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deepsand

So, that $20 "Estimated bid to show on the first page" you observed does not necessarily mean that there is a competitor who is willing to pay that much simply to "scare" off others, but perhaps one whose QS is so low that he's forced to bid high in order to gain visibility and/or determine how much he really needs to bid in order to achieve his best results.

Remember, this is an auction; your competitors are forced to engage in the same kind of guessing game that you are.

So if I understand it, assuming there is another bidder, and they might be perhaps forced to bid $20 to get first page listing because of a QS issue - or maybe it's a scare tactic. Now if I set my bid at, lets say $7.00 (not that I'm prepared to do this, but let's just say I did). Let's assume I get first page along with "high bidder". What will I be charged if they click on my ad. What will "high bidder" be charged if they click on his ad? Does $7.01 sound about right in both cases? Again, this is assuming there is a living, breathing "high bidder" who has bid that high in the first place.

deepsand · #30 (**permalink**) 11-24-2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LD

So if I understand it, assuming there is another bidder, and they might be perhaps forced to bid $20 to get first page listing because of a QS issue - or maybe it's a scare tactic. Now if I set my bid at, lets say $7.00 (not that I'm prepared to do this, but let's just say I did). Let's assume I get first page along with "high bidder". What will I be charged if they click on my ad. What will "high bidder" be charged if they click on his ad? Does $7.01 sound about right in both cases? Again, this is assuming there is a living, breathing "high bidder" who has bid that high in the first place.

There is no way to know in advance what you will pay; the only certainty is that you will not pay more than the lesser of 1) $0.01 greater than the next highest bidder behind your $7.00 bid, or 2) your $7.00 bid. If your QS is sufficiently high, you may place ahead of said next highest bidder but still pay less than his bid.

Likewise, you cannot know what any other bidder will pay.

The best you can do is to try different bids and carefully monitor the actual costs-per-click and average positions experienced at each bid level.

LD · #31 (**permalink**) 11-24-2008, 06:16 PM

Great advice here from all.

Dinghus · #32 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deepsand

You cannot block other's ads from be presented; you can only affect your own position within the list of those presented.

That no other ads may have been momentarily displayed was coincidental, and in no way caused by your bid.

Hmmmm I disagree. I've seen it too many times, usually with mine not showing. Time of day makes some difference since many people use up their daily budget early on in the day. But I have seen it happen when I bid the stupid amount that other ads are not shown. I know part of it is that Google will only allow 1 ad for a website at a time. So if there are 2 or more ads with the same URL displayed or as destination, only the top bidder will show until his budget is expended unless you outbid him.

Possibly I have hit times when everyone is bidding for the same URL. Who knows?

I have seen the ads for getting free Google ads, but I figure it is some scam type of thing. Anybody suckered into it and want to share with the rest of us?

Finally, I have gotten a much higher CTR, Conversion Rate, and ROI from Microsoft Ads and Yahoo ads than I have from Google. I get a much higher amount of traffic from Google, but if they aren't converting they are a waste of money.

Dinghus · #33 (**permalink**) 12-15-2008, 07:04 PM

One problem I see with what has been said about those high bids. Yes, somebody has put in that high amount as their top bid. They may not be paying it but you will have to pay it for your ad to show for that keyword. Or at least make it your high bid. If you don't bid that high, your ad for that keyword will become inactive.

You can lower the high amount required by improving your QS (which can be very difficult to do) but that takes time to kick in because age of site/ad have a bearing on the QS. Plus Clicks. So a new ad has a hard time getting a high QS.

deepsand · #34 (**permalink**) 12-16-2008, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinghus

One problem I see with what has been said about those high bids. Yes, somebody has put in that high amount as their top bid.

Google does not disclose any actual bids. Therefore, it is specious to argue that you know such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinghus

They may not be paying it but you will have to pay it for your ad to show for that keyword. Or at least make it your high bid. If you don't bid that high, your ad for that keyword will become inactive.

Presumably you here misspoke, as surely you understand that one need not be the highest bidder in order for their listing to be active.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dinghus

You can lower the high amount required by improving your QS (which can be very difficult to do) but that takes time to kick in because age of site/ad have a bearing on the QS. Plus Clicks. So a new ad has a hard time getting a high QS.

Raising ones QS is not "very difficult" to do.

Firstly, neither the age of the ad nor that of the target page are factors used in determining QS. See What is 'Quality Score' and how is it calculated? - AdWords Help Center .

Both the relevance and quality factors are well within your control; and, to a significant degree, so too is the CTR, as such is in great part a function of both the relevance of the keyword(s) to the ad (s), and the ad position, which is in turn influenced by the max. bid amount.

subhzash · #35 (**permalink**) 12-16-2008, 01:13 AM

Hi,

Thats is one of the Google revenue tactic i think. And up to my extent google never disclose real bid of any keyword.

Some times they suggest to increase bid of particular keywords at that time you need to check practically what is actual bid amount?? and some times if your landing page content does not meets quality keyword score then also you receive same suggestion from Google

If your running Google campaign for first time, then you need to work on some experiments to analyze

All the best

Regards
Subhash

deepsand · #36 (**permalink**) 12-16-2008, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subhzash

Thats is one of the Google revenue tactic i think.

My own experiences support such a conclusion.

I have, on numerous occasions, during that time when Google enforced mandatory minimum bids, that many new keywords most frequently were inactive, owing to not meeting such minimum bid. Most curious was the fact that virtually identical new keywords in the same Ad Group, and with the same bid, were immediately active upon being added.

And, after several days of being inactive, keywords suddenly became active, at the original bid, with no action on my part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by subhzash

And up to my extent google never disclose real bid of any keyword.

Quite correct; Google does not disclose any competitors' bids.

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