Alternative to Paypal?

[littlegiant]

Hi,

I'm currently using the Paypal Buy Now buttons to sell stuff on my site. Things were going pretty good for a couple of weeks but then all of a sudden sales dropped down to nothing. I decided to test the payment process to see if there were any glitches and lo and behold, I discovered that the Paypal 'Review Your Payment' page is now throwing a Javascript error even though I haven't made any changes to the Buy Now button HTML code. I contacted Paypal about this but just in case this turns into a protracted "This is not me, it's you" debate about why the Javascript error is happening, I'm trying to set up a contingency plan to process payments on my site.

I have three questions related to this:

1) What do you think about using Paypal to process payments? I chose them largely because of branding and because you don't need to have a credit card to buy. This is important because my potential clients are definitely not accustomed to paying for things online.

2) Do you think a Javascript error is enough to put off someone from buying? I know it would scare me off.

3) Can you suggest an alternative to Paypal? I'm currently considering Google Checkout. Do you have any other suggestions? It would be really great if I could offer a non-credit-card option of payment.

Much thanks for your feedback.

[stymiee]

Originally Posted by littlegiant

1) What do you think about using Paypal to process payments? I chose them largely because of branding and because you don't need to have a credit card to buy. This is important because my potential clients are definitely not accustomed to paying for things online.

Paypal is ok if you are small or don't have other options available to you. Otherwise I would always choose a true merchant account with a payment gateway first. Far more professional and powerful.

Originally Posted by littlegiant

2) Do you think a Javascript error is enough to put off someone from buying? I know it would scare me off.

You are far pickier then most. Most people don't even know javascript errors exist. And a javascript error just means there is a javascript error. It doesn't mean anything is wrong or unsafe. It just means there is a coding issue that obviously is not important if the site is still functional. Heck, it could just be an issue with a status bar text changer which is trivial.

Originally Posted by littlegiant

3) Can you suggest an alternative to Paypal? I'm currently considering Google Checkout. Do you have any other suggestions? It would be really great if I could offer a non-credit-card option of payment.

I've heard Alertpay is okay.

[wige]

Originally Posted by littlegiant

1) What do you think about using Paypal to process payments? I chose them largely because of branding and because you don't need to have a credit card to buy. This is important because my potential clients are definitely not accustomed to paying for things online.

Paypal is probably not a bad way to go, especially if your customers are new to the web. Paypal inspires trust simply because people have heard of them. The marketing message of Paypal is so strong that the general public is inclined to trust them, regardless of how trustworthy they may be. In this case, branding and name recognition are to your benefit.

Originally Posted by littlegiant

2) Do you think a Javascript error is enough to put off someone from buying? I know it would scare me off.

Yes. A technical user would probably not be uncomfortable with a javascript error, but it does not sound like that is your target demo. The general public needs a lot of convincing before they will trust your site enough to order. The media at large is full of coverage of data theft, malicious hacking, etc. These users don't know one type of error from another. Any error message, especially in the checkout process can scare away users.

Originally Posted by littlegiant

3) Can you suggest an alternative to Paypal? I'm currently considering Google Checkout. Do you have any other suggestions? It would be really great if I could offer a non-credit-card option of payment.

The only other option I could think of would be Google Checkout - again, name recognition is important - or setting up an Ebay store. I think, but I'm not certain, that the Ebay stores use paypal.

[SnerdeyWebs]

Keep paypal use an Oscommerce Template and open the doors of merchant accounts with other services so your web site can offer all kinds of payment methods!

I'm sure it's something related to your site, computer or ?? but Paypal has been working fine for us daily

[ArthurNYC]

Originally Posted by stymiee

Paypal is ok if you are small or don't have other options available to you. Otherwise I would always choose a true merchant account with a payment gateway first. Far more professional and powerful.

Sorry but that is wrong. We process in excess of 10,000 transactions monthly and offer all major CCs AND Paypal. Over the past years we have seen Paypal use increase (much to the displeasure of my merchant banks) to over 18% of transaction from 12 just 18 months ago.

In general, most major merchants offer at least 2 payment options (there was a recent article about this in internet retailer).

A few years back, Paypal was the choice of small merchants but now it is a second option for almost all major merchants.

Arthur

[creditwrench]

I'm looking for an alternative too but I haven't found one that issues a debt card one can use in most if not all ATM machines. I really like that feature.

It is almost a must because it allows me to make purchases at gas pumps and just about any other place that accepts cards too. And of course that way there is no waiting for the funds.

So those features are important to me.

And yes, Ebay and Paypal are bed partners since ebay bought out paypal a while back.

I also like the feature that Paypal has where they will not enter into disputes unless they involve purchases that require delivery of physical goods.

[clumberman]

Originally Posted by wige

Paypal is probably not a bad way to go, especially if your customers are new to the web. Paypal inspires trust simply because people have heard of them. The marketing message of Paypal is so strong that the general public is inclined to trust them, regardless of how trustworthy they may be. In this case, branding and name recognition are to your benefit.

Yes. A technical user would probably not be uncomfortable with a javascript error, but it does not sound like that is your target demo. The general public needs a lot of convincing before they will trust your site enough to order. The media at large is full of coverage of data theft, malicious hacking, etc. These users don't know one type of error from another. Any error message, especially in the checkout process can scare away users.

The only other option I could think of would be Google Checkout - again, name recognition is important - or setting up an Ebay store. I think, but I'm not certain, that the Ebay stores use paypal.

I agree that Google Checkout has good alternative name-recognition and, were I setting up a new web site, I would almost certainly use them over PayPal. Don't forget that eBay =owns= PayPal, just one more Evil Empire, behind the one in Redmond. Don't =ever= forget that nearly all merchant processors give you, the merchant, absolutely ZERO protection against fraud, even when you do everything right and =they= authorize a transaction...and even less if it's an international order.

Lyle Knox
FGW Auction Manager

[mohsho]

I am using PayPal for memberships and conference fees for a couple of academic organizations. I find it very frustrating to work with. I would look into Google Checkout in a heartbeat if it was available in Canada. When I first setup PayPal for one of my sites, PayPal decided to do an "update" of sorts and the first day I launched my online payment system, it was broken because of some undocumented changes that they made. It's tough to do business when relying on a company with business practices such as this.

[webreporter]

Paypal just has way too many hoops for your customers to jump through. If you have a business checking account, I highly recommend that you employ a credit card processing service that works online. Then I recommend that you build a shopping cart on your site that works with the credit card processor.

I used to use PayPal until I reached a point where I was going to tear my hair out. One too many times I ran into the problem where the customer had once used PayPal but forgot their password. That was enough to make the customer change their mind about buying my services.

Online shopping is often an "impulse buy", so you don't want to throw any hurdles toward a shopper with credit card in hand. If they run into issues with the payment method, they might just say "Screw it" and move on. No one in business can afford to let that happen.

There are literally hundreds of companies out there that process credit cards and will deposit the money into your checking account within two to three days of the transaction. There are some that even do both process the cards as well as incorporate a shopping cart.

Recently I was contacted by a prospect who wanted a shopping cart on her site, so I did some research and found these sites:

Ecommerce Software, Ecommerce Solution, Online Store, Web Store, e-Commerce, Web Services, Ecommerce Company
Shopping Cart Software Ecommerce Solutions
Shopping Cart, Secure Online Shopping Carts, E-commerce websites
Shopping Cart Software & Ecommerce Solutions Products

You can get as simple or as complicated with these as you see fit. Bottom line: Take control of how your site sells your products.

[Kate Lennon]

My advice is to avoid PayPal like the plague.
I was using PP on my two main websites for two and a half years without any problem. Then, one day, I received an email from them informing me that my account was "under temporary suspension" until I sent them "verification" of my personal details. Among other things, they wanted proof of address (ie, the address I had provided them with when I first signed up with them), and proof of telephone number (the number I had given them when I signed up).
As I was no longer living at that adress (having moved to a different country a year previously), I obviously could not provide them with verification that this was still my address (and obviously the phone number wasn't valid anymore, either).
I emailed them and explained that I was no longer at the address I had given them when I first signed up with them, and asked them how I should go about updating my details.
About a month later (and several repeat emails from me), I received an email from them to say that there was no option to update these details, and unless I could verify that I was still at the address and phone number I had used when I signed up with them, my account would be permanently suspended.
I replied, pointing out the impossibility of proving that I currently lived at an address that I had left over a year ago.
I received no reply, and a message suddenly appeared on my payment processing page to say that the account had been deactivated pending verification of the account-holder's details (which must have gone down great with potential customers).
Despite numerous emails to PP over the following weeks (they didn't reply to any of them), my account remained suspended.
I had just over 500 euros in my account when they closed it, and when I tried to transfer this money to my bank, I found that I could not. The whole thing had been blocked. I also tried sending it to a friend who had a PP account, but again this was not possible.
That was two years ago. They still have my money. I stopped emailing them after more than six months of being ignored. I got through to their "customer service" on the phone once, and it was like talking to a zombie. All the guy did (he was obviously reading from a "cue card" - was repeat over and over that my funds would be "unfrozen" and my account "reactivated" when I provided them with the verification details they had requested.
The conversation went like this:
"But I am no longer at the address or phone number I was at when I signed up with you."
"Well, you need to have a current address on your account."
"So why can't I update my details?"
"This is covered in our conditions. Would you like me to send you a copy?"
"I'm not interested in reading your conditions. I'm just interested in getting my money back."
"I'm afraid you can't transfer money while your account is suspended. If you send us the verification information we requested...."
Etc.
But it actually gets worse. Not only did they suspend my account, they also terminated the recurring billing payments I was set up to receive every month from my advertisers. I lost most of these accounts.
And it gets even worse. The also closed the accounts of the people I'd sent money to over the previous year! These people (mainly programmers etc., who had carried out work for me) had their PP accounts "frozen" solely because they had received payments from a "non verified" account (even though, obviously, the account was not suspended when the payments were sent).
After that, I vowed never to have anything to do with PayPal again.
A few months ago, however, I needed to pay for some urgent programming work, and the only payment option this guy had was PayPal. Reluctantly, I submitted the payment - and it was rejected! Seems that, not only has PP stolen my money, froze my account (and those of the people I did business with), they have also "blacklisted" my credit card details to prevent me from using PP to make payments online!
I now use Verotel on one of my sites, and 2Checkout on the other, and so far I have had no problems with these.

[Peter (IMC)]

having moved to a different country a year previously

and you wonder why they are so careful?

[Peter (IMC)]

Originally Posted by webreporter

Paypal just has way too many hoops for your customers to jump through. If you have a business checking account, I highly recommend that you employ a credit card processing service that works online. Then I recommend that you build a shopping cart on your site that works with the credit card processor.

I used to use PayPal until I reached a point where I was going to tear my hair out. One too many times I ran into the problem where the customer had once used PayPal but forgot their password. That was enough to make the customer change their mind about buying my services.

Online shopping is often an "impulse buy", so you don't want to throw any hurdles toward a shopper with credit card in hand. If they run into issues with the payment method, they might just say "Screw it" and move on. No one in business can afford to let that happen.

There are literally hundreds of companies out there that process credit cards and will deposit the money into your checking account within two to three days of the transaction. There are some that even do both process the cards as well as incorporate a shopping cart.

Recently I was contacted by a prospect who wanted a shopping cart on her site, so I did some research and found these sites:

Ecommerce Software, Ecommerce Solution, Online Store, Web Store, e-Commerce, Web Services, Ecommerce Company
Shopping Cart Software Ecommerce Solutions
Shopping Cart, Secure Online Shopping Carts, E-commerce websites
Shopping Cart Software & Ecommerce Solutions Products

You can get as simple or as complicated with these as you see fit. Bottom line: Take control of how your site sells your products.

Considering the fact that this forum is also about SEO, I'd like to add this one too:
Shopping Cart Software SEO Rated #1 (Search Engine friendly shopping cart + CMS)

[jpatriar]

I'm using a modified version of the paypal shopping cart I set up years ago to allow quantity discounts.

I'd like to dump it, but since I moved from 7 to 2 in Google in the last update (the PR actually dropped from 3 to 2) for my top keyword I'm wondering if switching to something like Xcart Gold or another will change the (Google) SERP's?

Any tips/advice would be greatly appreciated.

[jackit_chick]

Wow! That's serious bull crap what large companies can get away with. That amazes me they did all that...yes their customer service does suck. That sucks.

[tkershaw]

2) Do you think a Javascript error is enough to put off someone from buying? I know it would scare me off.

I would close that tab in a heartbeat! Any page errors gets a 'No Confidence' vote from me immedatly.

To those that thought that internet users were too unsofisticated to know the difference you could not be more wrong! While I will grant there are many neophites on the web the opposite is generally true. Have you not seen the statistics on the average internet user? They are hi income well educated people who trend more towards power users than noobs.

Tony.

[littlegiant]

Thanks everyone for all the input!

stymiee,

Re: Me being pickier than most regarding Javascript errors... You gotta understand that the user doesn't get this popup reading "This is probably just a harmless Javascript error. Don't worry about it." What they see --after just finishing entering their credit card details (or signing on to their Paypal account)-- is a little notification in the bottom left corner of Internet Explorer saying "Error on page." They're probably not even aware that it's a Javascript error. They just see that it's an error of some kind. And it involves them spending money.

Kate,

What a freakin' nightmare! That is certainly food for thought. Thanks for sharing. I'm now having second thoughts about keeping any funds online in my Paypal account for purposes of convenience.

To all:

I have an update to my situation. I received a response from Paypal which consisted of nothing more than just a canned apology about the issue and then a "I will be happy to assist you with your questions." After this, the rep just copy-and-pasted verbatim from the online documentation how to create a Paypal Buy Now Button form. That's it, that's all.

Hence I decided to take the matter into my own hands because even though I'm definitely going to use the info posted in this thread to find another solution to process credit card payments, I feel that a considerable number of customers I'm dealing with will need a non-credit card form of payment available.

So what I did was I used the Firebug plugin in Firefox to nail down the Javascript error:

document.getElementById("edit-shipping-address") has no properties
[Break on this error]
document.getElementById("edit-shipping-address").style.display="none";

review.js -- line ##
document.getElementById("edit-shipping-address").style.display="none";

...and then after extensive testing I managed to create two minimal test scenarios of Buy Now Button forms. One throws the javascript error when the user processes the form and one does not. The key difference between the two is an option on the 'Add More Options' page where you select whether you would like your buyers to provide you with their shipping address. If you select 'No' and create the form, a Javascript error appears on the 'Review Your Payment' page. If you select 'Make shipping optional', no Javascript error.

Sooo.. I sent a somewhat snippy reply to Paypal outlining all this including links to the minimal test scenario pages which I made available online at my site and I'm awaiting their reply. Then I went and modified all the HTML code in my current Buy Now button forms so that they 'Make shipping optional'. This is not at all suitable to my needs but it's preferable to having the buyer get scared away by the error message. I tested the forms and they work fine now.

All in all, I'm quite peeved at having to spend three hours of my time debugging that form, something Paypal should have done but I'm happy to have corrected the error (or rather created a workaround).

Now it's a matter of waiting to see if that error message really was impacting my sales.

[CyberCrone]

I have been using PayPal for several years and have had my own troubles with them but have always been able to resolve them one way or another, sometimes with a little teeth gnashing before it was over. But I have stayed because of several advantages, not the least of which is earning 5.05 % on my balance. I use it as an interest-bearing checking account, in other words. Instead of paying a monthly service charge or $10 or $12 as I do on bank account, I EARN $10 or $12 a month on my balance.

Name recognition is also good, as someone pointed out.

The people who have recommended regular merchant accounts failed to mention that cost is a factor for small-time operators like myself; that's why I don't have one. I recently signed up with Google Checkout as it is roughly equivalent to PayPal (without the interest, however). If it goes well, I will switch to them entirely. One thing about Google. Whatever they do WORKS as it should! Or at least that's my experience. They are not charging any fees until 2008, and then, if I remember correctly, the fees will be very low.

CyberCrone

P.S. There are quite a few complaints about Alertpay (recommended by someone in this thread) on Scam.com. Read them before signing up.

[bj]

I've been using Paypal for years with no problem (knock on wood!)

I will say this to you, Kate. When you moved did you notify your bank? Your utility companies? Other places you had accounts? If so, then WHY WOULDN'T YOU NOTIFY PAYPAL? How hard is it to change an address?

It took me two minutes of filling out a form at Paypal, and they verified it with my bank within a day. Of course, I did it within a week after I moved, and didn't change banks (which I suspect, if you moved to another country, was not the case with you.) So if you had a problem with Paypal because of the situation you outlined, it was a situation you created because you didn't take care of business when you should have. Though they probably could have handled things better, so should you have.

[jrb@w3f.com]

Originally Posted by tkershaw

2) Do you think a Javascript error is enough to put off someone from buying? I know it would scare me off.

I would close that tab in a heartbeat! Any page errors gets a 'No Confidence' vote from me immedatly.

Tony.

Well you better get off all Google stuff then to because they throw errors all over the place, so does Most all the Banks, like online banking at Bank of America. You need to look at the error and make an educated decision. Blanket statements like yours are childish, IMHO.

Any one that has ANY shopping cart, where their livelyhood depends will check their cart daily, sometines two or three times, just to be sure. All services can have glitches.

The guy that lost all his money went a year without updating his profile? No wonder they dumped him. With zero info the same, how could they give him anything? Too easy for him to be an imposter.

You all must be more diligent and professional about how you handle your money, or be prepared to lose it.

Paypal is desireable since many buyers prefer it. Google is good as is a few other merchant processors. Just watch them closely, keep your info up to date, and test regularily.

I'd keep either or all of them.

Little giant was the smart one. IMHO. Losing a trusted method can cost you far more than three hours work. Good job. WTG and all that.

[gadz]

My sympathy to Kate -I also had a similar 'situation' with Paypal.
Mine's gets even more complicated as an English woman living in Greece - married to a Greek - I found I didn't have any bills in my name - passport in Maiden name - I explained all bills are under my husband's name (me not stupid!). They told me to send those - but a Greek man's surname ends differently to a woman's eg Papadopoulos (man) Papadopoulou (woman). This was not accepted apparantly I was going to have to change the whole language and system of Greece to satisfy them! Also they required a copy of my Greek marriage certificate - I explained this is in Greek - hmmm back to drawing board. So I gathered all and every document I could find and faxed them - including copies of my daughter's passports to show name changes and a copy of my passport. But wait .... my photo was not clear enough for them .... I pointed out they didn't know what I looked like anyway and were unlikely to ever see me in the flesh.
I spent my whole Christmas on the phone to 'robotlike' customer service workers.

Rule of Paypal - NEVER try to update your details!!!!
Do I still use them - yes - if you sell on eBay and live in a foreign country Paypal offers the buyer a sense of security.

[Kate Lennon]

Possibly I ought to have updated my personal info, but to be honest it never occurred to me, and I guess at the back of my mind I figured I could update it anytime. I run a number of websites, and I'm signed up to maybe 50 accounts for various online services (freephone, livehelp, Network54 boards, Sigmachat chatrooms, Google Adsense accounts, two Constant Contact accounts, twenty-five or so affiliate programs, five credit card processing accounts - and others. Not to mention email accounts, link partner accounts, a dozen hosting accounts, a score of domain registration accounts - and god knows what else. Changing personal and contact details can be a real hassle. For instance, when I changed the contact details for my Verotel (credit card processing) account recently, I had to FAX them a photocopy of my passport and take a prearranged phone call.
The real point is that PayPal treat their customers like s**t. It is virtually impossible to get a reply from a real person - and even then it is usually a copy & paste job from their FAQ page. Their answers, in my experience - when you can get an answer, that is - rarely even deal with the question they've been asked.
Nor do I think it is reasonable for them to steal their customers' money just because they (their customers) have failed to update their personal details. I wasn't even aware that these details had to be kept current. And why not simply allow customers to update these details? I never changed my bank; nor did I change my credit card account; so there was no question that I was the same person who had set up the account. Why not simply request a copy of my passport, as Verotel did?
It seems to me that they are operating a scam by making it impossible for their customers to "verify" their accounts. How many thousands (millions?) of other PayPal users have had their money "frozen" in this way, I wonder?

[blueharvest]

Have you tried nochex.com ?

[espectations]

I have been using Paypal too and only problem that I experience is with chargebacks.

I follow their procedure but they never seem to even read what I send them - before I know it the chargeback has been completed and it always feels to me as if nobody paid attention to what I said.

I started to take that into account when I do my pricing seeing that one never seems to win a fight against the "powers that be".

I have not found an alternative to Paypal that could fulfill my needs to I guess until something better along I would have to live with it.

[doubtful]

I just wanted to say that I have expierenced the same thing with Paypal. That is why I use 2CO.com (2 checkout) along with Google Checkout.
Doubtful

[Mumtaz]

You may try 2Checkout.com — Merchant Account / Credit Card Processing Alternative.

Originally Posted by littlegiant

Hi,

I'm currently using the Paypal Buy Now buttons to sell stuff on my site. Things were going pretty good for a couple of weeks but then all of a sudden sales dropped down to nothing. I decided to test the payment process to see if there were any glitches and lo and behold, I discovered that the Paypal 'Review Your Payment' page is now throwing a Javascript error even though I haven't made any changes to the Buy Now button HTML code. I contacted Paypal about this but just in case this turns into a protracted "This is not me, it's you" debate about why the Javascript error is happening, I'm trying to set up a contingency plan to process payments on my site.

I have three questions related to this:

1) What do you think about using Paypal to process payments? I chose them largely because of branding and because you don't need to have a credit card to buy. This is important because my potential clients are definitely not accustomed to paying for things online.

2) Do you think a Javascript error is enough to put off someone from buying? I know it would scare me off.

3) Can you suggest an alternative to Paypal? I'm currently considering Google Checkout. Do you have any other suggestions? It would be really great if I could offer a non-credit-card option of payment.

Much thanks for your feedback.

[ArthurNYC]

Those issues with Paypal freezing accounts was before they were bought out. It was a big mess and there were tons of horror stories like that but I haven't heard any like that in years (more knocking on wood).

Arthur

[stymiee]

Originally Posted by ArthurNYC

Sorry but that is wrong. We process in excess of 10,000 transactions monthly and offer all major CCs AND Paypal. Over the past years we have seen Paypal use increase (much to the displeasure of my merchant banks) to over 18% of transaction from 12 just 18 months ago.

In general, most major merchants offer at least 2 payment options (there was a recent article about this in internet retailer).

A few years back, Paypal was the choice of small merchants but now it is a second option for almost all major merchants.

Arthur

Sorry, Arthur, but i am not wrong. I am not just a Paypal user. I have been in the merchant account industry for five years. I know the differences between both. You even said it yourself, Paypal is good as a second processor. But simply put larger sites will want the flexibility and power and cost savings that a true merchant account offers over Paypal every time. And when they choose only one processor, which most do, the larger players always choose a true merchant account over Paypal.

(Not to mention with Paypal being allowed to freeze and hold funds at any time for any reason no large processor wants to risk losing thousands of dollars to Paypal's whim. True merchant account providers can only hold funds in cases of fraud or excessive chargebacks.)

[Clint1]

Originally Posted by blueharvest

Have you tried nochex.com ?

Isn't that just in the UK?

[jpatriar]

Originally Posted by littlegiant

2) Do you think a Javascript error is enough to put off someone from buying? I know it would scare me off.

Internet Explorer versions and 6.x under (not sure about 7.x) have a check box in Tools > Internet Options > Adavnced that when checked "will display a notification about every script error". It is unchecked by default and that is how most people have it set.

Enabling it will display the alert box error message which usually has the script line number and some information on why it failed, otherwise you'll just get the little caution icon on the bottom left corner as was mentioned in a previous post.

There is also a "disable script debugging" box that should be checked and is by default.
This is for the script debugger that Microsoft has/had that allows javascript programmers to debug their code.

I used it way, way back with IE 4.x but if I remember correctly, after upgrading to 5.x it no longer worked. I'm not even sure if it is still around.

[zbatia]

To summarize the opinion:
1. PayPal has well over 50 million customers and offers the LOWEST fee for the service (usually around 3% and 4% for foreign transactions). No Gateway or maintenance fee is included. PayPal is good for small business most of the time once you setup the shopping card correctly and explained your customers that they don't have to have a PayPal account in order to pay for your product.

2. Google has the shopping card, too. Remember, it's still BETA? I was not able to setup the shopping card with them where the customer can manually enter the price of my product vs. create 500 different codes for each product (we are selling the test simulation software for all IT certification exams).

3. Simply choose between the cost of the transaction per each sale with PayPal vs. Other shopping card solution. If you are OK to have temporary difficulties with PayPal but save money in the end, don't shop for other solutions. Otherwise, forget about PayPal and choose any other e-commerce providers.

4. If you are a big shop or each of your product costs more than $1000, then avoid PayPal.

5. If you stick to PayPal, make sure you update them with your new address, telephone number, password, etc. Otherwise, you will experience the story similar to described above or mine when I wanted to update the password at eBay because for some reason I was not able to login anymore with my regular password.
Please keep in mind, that there are plenty of creative hackers who break through the systems. PayPal was hacked several times in a past. Then they hired cyber tsar who helped them to raise the level of security and attract so many new customers. If you would be in the situations like them, you would be also paranoid about the security. With today's level of fraud using social engineering you have to be extremely careful about your business especially if you have more than 50 millions of customers!

[Kate Lennon]

PayPal isn't as low cost as it appears. When a customer (or whoever) pays you by PP, a fee is deducted from the payment. When you send that payment somewhere else, a second fee is charged. And there are other "stealth" fees. But yes, PayPal probably costs less than most credit card processing systems. The only problem is that PayPal will "freeze" your account (ie, steal your money) at the drop of a hat, and on the slightest pretext. And their "customer support" is virtually non-existent. Oh, and if you have any problems with them, they will blacklist your credit card and freeze the accounts of all the people you sent money to in the previous year.
Apart from that, PayPal is just great (avoid them like the plague).

[doj464]

Woow! This thread looks pretty active. I myself have had my fair share of bad experience with paypal, and was considering suing them in small claims court.

I would strogly suggest Google Checkout. They deduct zero fees, and their merchant protection is probably the best in the industry.

[Clint1]

Originally Posted by doj464

Woow! This thread looks pretty active. I myself have had my fair share of bad experience with paypal, and was considering suing them in small claims court.

I would strogly suggest Google Checkout. They deduct zero fees, and their merchant protection is probably the best in the industry.

Can you use any cart with G Checkout?

[Clint1]

littlegiant, am I to understand your JS error was with, or due to, the PP "Buy now" buttons only? I'm concerned now that I may have them, but I don't use the buttons, I use a 3rd-party shopping cart. So I should not have any errors?
Thanks.

[littlegiant]

jpatriar,

Just so we're on the same page here... The default setting in IE6 and IE7 for Tools >> Internet Options >> Advanced >> 'Display a notification about every script error' is UNCHECKED (the way I have it set). This setting will indeed display the little yellow icon in the bottom left of IE with the 'Error on page' message on most (but not all) Javascript errors. This was what I was concerned about and, in my humble opinion, the average Internet Explorer user was indeed seeing this 'Error on page' message on the Paypal 'Review Your Payment' page. If you CHECK the 'Display a notification about every script error' option, you'll actually get a popup dialog about the script error as well as the little yellow icon in the bottom left.

Clint1,

Yes I am only aware of this Javascript error with the Buy Now Buttons forms. However, if your payment process has anything to do with Paypal, I suggest that you check it out from start to finish to make sure it's error-free.

To All:

UPDATE - First, to quickly recap what I posted earlier, on Friday I managed to debug all my Paypal Buy Now Button forms (with no help from Paypal BTW) so that the Javascript error no longer appears on the 'Review Your Payment' page.

Yesterday (wahoo!), I made my first sale after a peculiar 6 day drought (which I strongly suspect is connected to the JS error message). So things are looking up although it's a bit early to tell. If over the next week my conversion rate returns to pre-July 1st rates then I'll be convinced that this little debacle actually cost me a few bucks.

Also, I got another response from Paypal. They completely ignored my minimal test case scenarios (I even sent them the URLs to these test case scenarios) and instead replied, "If you are experiencing problems with our website that have not been encountered before, it is likely that you have a corrupted cookie." This was followed by another copy-and-paste on how to clear cookies in your web browser. Just for posterity, I cleared the cookies in IE7, shut down and restarted and then went through my minimal test case scenario and I still got the Javascript error.

(*chuckle*)... They also followed up with an email asking me to fill in a survey rating their customer service. I was initially concerned that it might be a phishing scam but after doing some Googling, I became convinced that it wasn't so I filled in the survey. Needless to say, they did not get a passing grade.

[SITEchrome]

moneybookers seems to be a good alternative. they are not US based though, anyway they process USD too... among others, has excellent reach/delivery, reasonable customer base, low [even lower than paypal] fee. most important, a 'chargeback' parallel industry seems to be non existent as in the case of paypal. their merchent verification is more stricter when opening a/c...

[jtracking]

Originally Posted by Kate Lennon

My advice is to avoid PayPal like the plague...I vowed never to have anything to do with PayPal again.

A few months ago, however, I needed to pay for some urgent programming work, and the only payment option this guy had was PayPal. Reluctantly, I submitted the payment - and it was rejected! Seems that, not only has PP stolen my money, froze my account (and those of the people I did business with), they have also "blacklisted" my credit card details to prevent me from using PP to make payments online!
I now use Verotel on one of my sites, and 2Checkout on the other, and so far I have had no problems with these.

Kate I feel sorry for what happened to you but remember although you haven't had problems with 2Checkout or Verotel remember to keep your personal information in check - especially if you move again.

Paypal's ok if you're starting out and even if you're making good coin but i agree with most of the sentiments that it's better to use paypal as a second or even third option.

Presently I'm selling hosting with paypal as my primary payment method only because I've yet to setup a merchant account through my bank...

Be careful!

[jtracking]

Originally Posted by jackit_chick

Wow! That's serious bull crap what large companies can get away with. That amazes me they did all that...yes their customer service does suck. That sucks.

They're not getting away with anymore more than you agree to let them get away with.

you gamble, you may lose.

[marcel]

You can try using Clickbank since they work with Paypal and online checks.

When your customer is buying via Clickbank that can select Paypal as a payment option. They also started to offer a recurrent billing option.

[ctabuk]

Hi - sorry to interupt - there was a reported post on one poster having affiliate links in their sig - That's perfectly ok 3 maximum.

Carry on guys.

[wige]

Originally Posted by tkershaw

To those that thought that internet users were too unsofisticated to know the difference you could not be more wrong! While I will grant there are many neophites on the web the opposite is generally true. Have you not seen the statistics on the average internet user? They are hi income well educated people who trend more towards power users than noobs.

I have seen the statistics. Usability tests have shown that approximately 80% of web users don't know what the Stop and Refresh buttons in their browsers are for. After being inundated with media reports of online scams and identity theft, you expect these users to trust a web site that shows any type of error, especially a small business site? Especially after you yourself said you wouldn't even trust the site?

[Clint1]

Originally Posted by littlegiant

Clint1,

Yes I am only aware of this Javascript error with the Buy Now Buttons forms. However, if your payment process has anything to do with Paypal, I suggest that you check it out from start to finish to make sure it's error-free.

Yeah I thought about doing that, but I don't know how without making a purchase which can't be done from youself.

[littlegiant]

Clint1,

What I did was simply set up another Paypal account and then used that to test payments. All you'll lose is the percentage that Paypal takes to process payments. Admittedly, if what you're selling is expensive than this could run into a few bucks just to test the payment process. But personally I found it to be well worth it. I wanted to see exactly what the user sees from start to finish.

[SITEchrome]

if the last 2 posts are regarding testing your system with a paypal a/c, its better to setup a sandbox a/c than setting up another [real] paypal a/c. sand box is a real 'test' environment to try-out your web app/site. one should already have a real a/c to open a sandbox a/c. tester can role play as merchant, buyer etc. can use fictitious data in sandbox. since this is a test environment, you won't loose any money!

[Clint1]

Originally Posted by SITEchrome

if the last 2 posts are regarding testing your system with a paypal a/c, its better to setup a sandbox a/c than setting up another [real] paypal a/c. sand box is a real 'test' environment to try-out your web app/site. one should already have a real a/c to open a sandbox a/c. tester can role play as merchant, buyer etc. can use fictitious data in sandbox. since this is a test environment, you won't loose any money!

Thanks. If anyone is interested you can sign up for it here: https://developer.paypal.com/

[littlegiant]

Hey thanks... I never knew about that!

[tkershaw]

Originally Posted by jrb@w3f.com

Well you better get off all Google stuff then to because they throw errors all over the place, so does Most all the Banks, like online banking at Bank of America. You need to look at the error and make an educated decision. Blanket statements like yours are childish, IMHO.

La-La-La I can't hear you! Is that the response you were looking for? Well I must chastise you for playing the 'childish' card without cause or logic. This was no blanket statement, you took a response to a very specific situation and labeled it as 'blanket' just to set up your jab. Adding IMHO at the end does not absolve you from your poor evaluation so STFU unless you can contribute an intelligent argument WITHOUT the baseless insults.

Tony.

[tkershaw]

Originally Posted by wige

I have seen the statistics. Usability tests have shown that approximately 80% of web users don't know what the Stop and Refresh buttons in their browsers are for.

Wow, that is an interesting statistic! I love to hear that kind of information then evaluate it. Usability in and of itself has no bearing on the sophistication level of the user of course, but those particular functions should be known to any intermediate level user so you make a valid point.

Originally Posted by wige

After being inundated with media reports of online scams and identity theft, you expect these users to trust a web site that shows any type of error, especially a small business site? Especially after you yourself said you wouldn't even trust the site?

I don't understand what you are trying to ask here with these back to back questions, I suspect they may be rhetorical. You seem to be saying users should trust sites with errors since they have been exposed to a barrage of scary reports, but that can’t be right, can you clarify?

Tony.

[Clint1]

FWIW, I rarely see any website using JS that isn't showing some kind of errors. Apparently no one can get it right, so I question why site owners even use it if they can't get it to not show errors.

Sort of like the "Stop" and "Refresh" buttons, I doubt many typical users are even aware or even know where to look for a JS error, and couldn't care less about them. Most people online are pretty dumb and oblivious as to what's taking place online and with their PC's. If a site is still functional with a JS error, they'll care even less. If it in some way impairs the functionality of site, then they of course need to be addressed and fixed.

[wige]

What I was trying to say is that through the media the general public is frequently reminded about the threat of identity theft, web sites getting hacked, etc, and as a result they have to trust the web site, and error messages tend to reduce the credibility in the site, especially a small business. Sure, Bank of America might throw javascript errors during an online transaction, but the user likely already trusts that site such that they would ignore the errors.