Microsoft a sinking ship?

[wenwilder]

A question was raised with a fitting analogy about Microsoft operating systems. Today it seems very fitting considering the state the network is in - and the headaches 200 people are facing due to recently released patches. Slow programs, network errors, inaccessible drives.....and when I say slow I mean slow - the speed of computers from 1986. That's just a few fun issues today is offering.

Now the analogy:

Imagine a building where everything leaked. There is only on plummer to care for this building. For every leak he fixes three more start. You live in this building and spend your evenings dodging pots, pans and various other "leak catchers."

Now... honestly... would you continue living in this building?

The more Microsoft patches Windows the more "issues" it seems to have. The number of patches they release keeps increasing. When they do release patches they have to release more patches to fix their patches.

While I use to just complain about Windows and hypocritically continued to use it, I've started to change that factor.

I have used mac, rather liked it. I am working on learning Linux. From what I have seen so far... Linux is getting my vote.

But honestly, is Microsoft a sinking ship?


P.S. To be completely fair - security is going to be an issue for as long as the internet exists. It was an issue from the moment the first virus was created for a class project. I wish Microsoft luck in their battle.

[irodgers]

I'm not a Microsoft fan, so I DONT wish them luck. They had enough luck already to get where they are, sometimes at the expense of better companies.

[wenwilder]

I'm not a Microsoft fan either. My past posts repeatedly display that fact. But.... Microsoft is widely used. Love it or hate we still have to deal with it.

I do, however, wonder why. People know the problems Microsoft has, they know there are other options, and yet they continue to moan and groan about Microsoft.

If they are so acrimonious about it then they need to make a choice. Continue as is or... learn a new OS. It is that easy.

[Easywebdev]

I don't consider it a sinking ship but it is definately sailing through some choppy waters at present. I think the imminent launch of Vista will steady the ship for a time until its vulnerabilities get exposed and its back on the anti virus/ad aware vs virii and spyware roundabout again. If they don't release a fairly stable vista then I think they may well end up in a sinkable position (the fact that microsoft offers a commercial anti virus product instead of patching their OS has turned many against it) but the opposition really has to step up to the plate which they are not really doing.

Apple seem more preoccupied with peripherals (ipod and the revenue generated from itunes) than they are in trying to gain a larger share of the desktop computer market.

Linux is advancing all the time towards a solid desktop offering but for me the Linux community has shot itself in the foot. There are just too many distros now which is daunting to new users. A new linux user may download suse/redhat/centos/mandriva or any of the other rpm based distros and then try switching to slackware/debian/or a bsd and become totally confused with having to learn yet another package management software and a difference in location of startup scripts. Distro makers are adding more and more proprietry software to their distros daily which in effect means new users have to learn redhat linux / suse linux etc rather than just a unified linux. The initial linux roadmap was good but commercialism has doomed it I feel.

I'm a ten year slackware veteran and do all my development in linux but I still have to keep a copy of windows about for those times I need to use photoshop/paint shop pro. The extremely slow uptake of the major software houses in porting their products to linux is yet another nail in its coffin.

Someday all software will be available in linux and one distro will emerge as the dominant one and the others will fall by the wayside giving linux a real chance to break windows dominance but for me that day is a long ways off.

Linux has the market cornered in the server arena and the only reason I see Microsoft surviving at the desktop level is due to the lack of a better alternative.

[irodgers]

One big reason that I.T. companies fail while microsoft doesn't is this fragmentation issue. My main work is with a thing called PICK (what? you say - exactly). It was born in two pieces and went on fragmenting into smaller and smaller bits. Microsoft seems to be unique in avoiding fragmenting and keeping control over its core intellectual property.
Or is that a sweeping statement?

If its not wrong, the linux boys and girls need to literally get their act TOGETHER and stop fragmenting their market to the detriment of all.

[soniqhost.com]

I don't think Microsoft is a sinking ship, yes there are problems with the operating system but when they built XP the issue of security wasn't a major factor it was stability that everyone complained about in older versions of windows. I'm waiting to see Vista and how it improves security. Now if they can't get it right with Vista then we have problems.

[nottheusual1]

And before the Linux crowd weighs in, understand the context of that remark:

Most new home computers are bought at a big-box retailer (pick any name, including WalFart) or directly through Dell. All any of them offer is MS OS's. OK, with the minor exception of the big retailers that offer Mac's - but wait, isn't their latest pitch that they can run Windoze, too? Oh, and lest I forget the rare boxes loaded with Linspire Linux that WalFart used to sell.

And truth be told, few of the customers care. PC's are appliances. Until somebody else comes up with an OS with a user interface both as simple and as complex as WinDoze that will never change.

MS has tons of troubles down the road. OOO will really put a dent in MS Orifice sales at some point and there will eventually be a world of truly portable GUI's that you'll be able to haul around from vanilla linux box to vanilla linux box via your keychain, hence Windoze will have competition, and the customer can choose the GUI based on their needs, not what some pencil-muncher in MS-land thinks they need.

Even Intel is making 3D graphics stuff for Nix, now.

MS has always been, well, lame. And the market will weed out the lame ones eventually. It's easy to be the biggest when the market expands for 2 decades at logarithmic rates and you are the only game in town. Remember that dinosaurs once ruled the Earth, too. A spate of "bad weather" can fix many things.....

PC's will eventually be reduced to a component of a total entertainment system or to the likes of 20" color TV's. The OS will be Linux (or similar derivitive) and you'll choose your GUI, which will, in turn, "expose" those parts of the OS to you that you've decided you need.

Hey, "Dial-A-GUI" - remember you heard it here first.

[tshesse]

it won't matter, if MS closed up shop today and everyone had to buy a MAC there would be just as many (i would wager more) security patches coming from Apple as there is from MS right now.

[spenland]

Let me just say that I'm not a fan of Microsoft, but I think your all fooling yourselves if you think Microsoft is a "sinking ship". With the upcoming launch of their new OS and a plan in the future to market there own PC's (gulp, I believe their future is strong.

Someone would have to revolutionize the industry to de-thrown Microsoft.

[whipnet]

Networking problems? Not really.

Take it from someone who dealt with early token ring, lantastic, unix, even early Windows for Workgroups and NT 3.1... Networking is frigin' brainless now.

I oversee many MS networks large and small here in Houston, and network problems are very rare these days.

Not an MS lover, but facts are facts.

*

[DrTandem1]

What I learned after being in the US Coast Guard is that a ship may be battered in a ferocious storm, but doesn't always sink.

Nothing more eerie than coming across a deserted ship or large boat adrift with the life boats missing. She weathered the storm. The crew and lifeboats never to be found.

The lesson learned: Don't abandoned ship too soon, It may be better to step up into the life boats, than to climb down into them.

Microsoft is the giant ship. And like any great sailing vessel, it travels the stormy seas of business. You may need to patch things along the way. That is why you have DC (damage control) on board. When you get to port, you can take on supplies and make repairs permanent.

Leaving the world of analogy for a moment, Microsoft and companies like it, need to make their services useful. To do so, they need to be accessible. In making it accessible, there are pathways that social engineers will find to be disruptive.

Apple, Linux and Firefox are starting to see their systems targeted. Mac's OS X was dubbed "easy pickin's."

So, before you jump what you think is a sinking ship, make sure your tiny lifeboat will weather the same storm.

[mushroom]

Here you go wenwilder

http://cache.novell.com/cached/video...le10_geeko.mpg

[hs4u]

I have used windows since 3.1 and have not had trouble with viruses, not much with freezes (with exception of Windows ME), networking, slow systems. I run several programs at once and it works great. Windows XP has stabilized tremendously. I only reboot when I add a new program.

At school I have to use a Mac for graphics classes. I have had to reboot due to freezes, programs going slow if I open more than 3, mouse becoming unresponsive, printers not hooked up, browser windows not rendering as expected. Since it is school servers I can't tell you how networking is but know that the networking class's teacher complains endlessly about networking the MACs, he doesn't even try to teach it. The problems have occurred on the new last year upgraded MACs so it is not due to the old machines, they seemed to work better.

If I had a MAC I would probably use it as a personal computer for music, movie making. I use Windows for business related issues but the music I download and movies I make still rock, so guess my XP pc is the best choice for me.

Haven't used Linux, but the instructor for networking loves them. Someday, when I am not making money with my machine I will play around with that OS.

[Seminole386]

We don't make the decision, management does. About 20 years ago I was told to order 2,000 personal computers for my company. I owned an Apple, but I knew I couldn't lose my job if I bought IBM so that is what I did. That action will continue all over the world over and over again. Love em or hate em, MicroSoft will remain on top. If you work for a corporation and want to do work at home, you too will use windows.

[herb3_16]

The majority of computers today run some version of Microsoft Windows. Software is software, no matter how well the code is written. Microsoft has the most public vulnerabilites, because they are the most widely used. If Linux, Mac, or some other OS was the market leader, we would see the same result or worse. I am in partial to both Microsoft and Linux, but, Linux "overall" is in no way superior to Windows. Due to the Linux being open source it would lead to more of a security disaster than Windows if it became the Market Leader. Network issues are extremely common with Linux and Mac, but few and rare with Windows, so don't fool yourself. Like another post stated, facts are facts.

Microsoft a Sinking Ship - What a Joke! Get your facts straight!

Microsoft Windows is the market leader due to excellent marketing, and overtime a more stable, easy to use, and as secure as trial and error can be with any software. If Linux is so great, for the cost, why has it not taken the market. Dell has succeded due to marketing and product costs. Why not Linux?

[CalgaryPix]

First off, I'm a Mac fan. At one time I was a MS fan - not for the OS (Dos at that time - yes I go back) but for Word, before it became bloatware. On PC's WordPerfect was the app of choice, but the "revolutionary new Mac's" used Word. PC users wanted in on the action and Windows was born. To give Gates and crew their due credit - they did a perfect move of making sure Windows was put on most of the "cheap" computers. A few other OS's tried, but couldn't make the grade. IMO, Windows has never run as well as the Mac OS. However, most people bought the cheaper computers and became financially and EMOTIONALLY invested in Windows (Oh yeah, Mac's are great but they cost so much and I can get so much more crap for my Windows PC...) If they switch to Mac it would be admiting they were wrong the first time.

And that is why MicroSoft won't go under - people are still tied by emotion to that platform. From what I can tell, its much like someone who is abused will try harder to please the abuser (it must be my fault I get beaten) - and people will continue to buy MS Windows.

[ron angel]

off topic....
microsoft is less lightly to sink than the ship on my site has a chance of blowing up! whereas microsoft puts loads of money into its running,
the government trys to ignore my ship.....
For both "Its only a matter of time" to see what happens.
The richard montgomery matter

[Rhys]

Another point is that most of us are heavily invested in both money and training in programs that run in Windows, which won't run under Linux or on Macs. (I guess the new Macs run Windows, but why would I pay twice the money for a Mac running Windows as a PC running it?) Sometimes there is a version of the program that does, but more often there isn't. Moving to a new OS means starting all over buying and learning programs. And there aren't nearly the number of programs available for other OS's as there are for Windows.

The same is true of working on the computer. I have learned to repair a number of problems with PC's running Windows but would be lost with a Mac.

[kgun]

"Microsoft a sinking ship?"

Why that heading?

Should it be: "Are Microsoft's operating systems loosing ground?"

Remember that Microsoft is much more:

Operating systems.
Office solutions.
Network solutions.
Database solutions.
Web server solutions.
Web browser.
Media player.
Mail servers.
Communication platforms.
Search engine.
Application developement platforms.
Authentication system .NET concept. One centralized solution where other companies struggle with n more or less incompatible accounts.

Sometimes it is good to remove some dead meat. IMO XP is one of the best Microsoft products delivered today. Windows Vista seems promising.

Talking about an important life boat on a ship is far from the same as talking about the ship.

The real competition for Microsoft comes from Oracle, Sun and last but not least the complete open software community. That competition is good for us and Microsoft and is real, but not dangerous yet.


<Start of loop>
If a large enough sum of money is placed on some tables, other companies sell and Microsoft closes the doors / the party if you will.

If new, free solutions developes, then go to start of loop for some of them.
<End of loop>

The real, foreseable danger for Microsoft is that it will be split like AT&T. Then instead of a large Microsoft cruiser, we get a Microsoft armada.

P.S. Heard of the term multiboot?

[magic_majax]

I'm staying with my folks' and have used my father's computer running windows XP. I borrowed this pc for a time and had linux installed on it with a 56K modem. now it's running cable.

It's still slower to browse the net than linux on 56K

It was only online a short while and got infected with spyware and a virus, there were alien pop-ups and iframes appearing all over pages. Now he's running so many ad blockers and security apps this machine is running like a pig.

My father insists on using microsoft outlook and MSIE, is deaf to my advice he install mozilla, even under windows.

He's a developer as well, he can program assembly FFS, but for some reason he doesn't learn linux and sticks with M$.

He's working for a client using M$ and that's really a lot of the reason why people actually use their cr@p, because everyone else does, not for any merits it has over other OS'.

Windows has just spread rampantly over the office environment so that even skilled professionals are forced to use it for integration with their clients' offices.

He's really annoyed XP forces him to be connected to the internet because he doesn't want to be on his development machine, but says he has no choice because all the help files are online and because of the way xp works.

I had apps wanting to conect to the net through the firewall and was checking out the IP. They were all going to 1 Microsoft Way Redmond but that wasted more of my time checking what is doing what before I could modify the firewall rules.

Last time I checked you could modify your own whois info online so what is to stop a hacker from changing their details to 1 Microsoft Way Richmond? Who checks this stuff after initial registration at the ISPs?

I bet none of them do, or few at any rate.

I think M$ really blows.

[bj]

I for one don't wish to train noobs on a whole different op system. They're already scared to death of what they've got! And though MicroSnot's documentation is bad, the various Linux distro docs are worse. Though I think the possibility exists that MS will be knocked off the OS throne, I doubt it will happen any time within the next ten years, unless something radically different comes along, like a non-centralized OS. We're already moving a lot of functionality onto the web, so . . .

[danno]

Windows Vista and Internet Explorer 7 on an Intel Mac will be invulnerable
thanks to virtualization.

Why do you think we are seeing all the AeroGlass?
Because the Luna theme would look pretty old pretty quick on a Mac.

Millions, upon millions, upon millions of baby boomers
retiring and cashing in their retirement funds and 401K's
will want Intel Macs with Vista on them.
Powerful, secure and easy in an attractive package.

The marching orders from Redmond? Make it look pretty
on an Intel Mac.

Microsoft not only knows the market, it owns it.

Dan

[wmrobwl]

IMO, the Windows ship will never sink. Bill Gates is an amazing businessman. They have 40 billion in cash. Bill Gates always made it a point to have at least 1 year of operating expenses saved up. This means that if the earth froze over or something else catastrophic happened they would have a year to be able to come up with some other source of revenue to sustain itself.

The fact of the matter is that their OS sales are a cash cow and they are going to milk it until it dies. They have planted seeds in so many different areas that even if the idea of a computer OS in general was to become completely obsolete, they could easily do something else to make money.

In order to sink the microsoft ship Bill Gates would have to die or become totally detached from corporate decision making and you would need poor managagement to take over.

All businesses are like human life they have a definite beginning and a definite end, but Microsoft's end is not going to be anytime soon.

[bj]

In order to sink the microsoft ship Bill Gates would have to die or become totally detached from corporate decision making and you would need poor managagement to take over.

Umm, Bill Gates is RETIRING. He's already named two guys who are going to be his successors.

[jawn_tech]

I'd say Apple is a sinking ship, before MS would be.

Apple is scrambling to grasp on to other's technologies, including MS's, just to stay afloat. Intel processors, Microsoft operating systems.

Apple doesn't even own the patent for their famous IPod -- Microsoft beat them to the punch by filing 5 months before Apple did. If they're not successful in appealing the decision, they could end up having to pay Microsoft royalties on every iPod sold. Now think if that also means retro-active. Adios, Apple.

I'm really not a fan of any company. Nor am I usually the type of person to follow the crowd. In technology though, I rarely swim against the current. That's why Microsoft may not even be a ship. They ARE the current, at least for the present. It may be a long time before that ever changes.

[MarcThai]

Originally Posted by wenwilder

People know the problems Microsoft has, they know there are other options, and yet they continue to moan and groan about Microsoft. If they are so acrimonious about it then they need to make a choice. Continue as is or... learn a new OS. It is that easy.

Inertia. Even when you are suffering, it is difficult to make a change to improve your life without a serious effort.

I was the same until about 6 years ago when I suffered a massive virus attack throughout my company network that effectively shut us down for about 3 days. I stood back and said, "Enough!!!"

My System Admin and I analyzed a few different versions of Linux and settled on Mandrake V8. Back then it was in its infancy, but it was still a whole lot better than Micro$oft. Since then Mandrake has issued two major upgrades, and the O/S is stable, powerful and I NEVER have to worry about viruses again.

Meanwhile, M$ has stood still. Sure, XP is good, even though it is full of security holes, and it still craps out. It is very slow too compared to Linux.

The problem is that Bill insists that the new upgrade (if it ever gets released) must be backward compatible. When you consider the architecture Windows is structured on, this is why they are having so much difficulty. I heard a rumor that M$ have decided to completely revamp the architecture so that it is much closer to the Linux model. I've also heard rumors that they are even constructing a Linux-like system. They would be fools if they don't.

Whatever they decide, they can't continue the way they have been going. When I changed over to Linux the ratio was 98% M$ and the rest; including Mac. They are slowly but surely losing market share. The longer they stand still as they are now, the more share they will lose.

After using Linux for so long I can tell you that you are crazy if you don't try it. Configuring a LAN is simple and fast. Open Office is compatible with M$ Office, although it still needs some more work to make it work as well as Word. One feature I really like in OO is the ability to create .PDF files just by saving the file in that format.

The other software that is bundled and FREE in Linux all works well. I use FTP (gFTP), make graphics (THE GIMP), Firefox (browser - although there are plenty of other bundled verions too), Thunderbird (again, you can choose from at least 3 other Linux mail programs), and much more. There are literally thousands of free programs to choose from on the distribution disks, or that you can download from SourceForge.net, or OpenSource.org.

Do I still use Windows? Yes, on my laptops, and only to do very specialized jobs like scanning (linux scan programs are very difficult to configure for some reason), and graphic work. Even though THE GIMP is powerful, the fonts and some of the rendering is a bit rough. I expect future versions of Linux to overcome these small problems so that I can finally go fully Linux.

Don't wait. Try Linux now. I bet you will love it like I do.

[rickbkis]

Originally Posted by wenwilder

"But honestly, is Microsoft a sinking ship?"

In a word: hardly.

If anything, I think the OS is getting better. But, it is in danger of collapsing under its own weight. That's the problem when you try to make everything brainless and non-taxing to the user - you wind up taxing the system. It's also what happens when you become so popular that you're a target for every bright kid with more hardware and time and less responsibility to keep him occupied.

But, here's the deal - your grandma can update the OS, add device drivers, install programs, and crank up a firewall pretty painlessly - on Windows. Your neighbor real-estate lady can get all kinds of neat software tailored to her business - on Windows.

Grandma's gonna get into trouble pretty quickly on a Linux box, when she has to find the proper distribution, install an RPM (or equivalent) and then find all the dependent RPM's (or equivalents) and then hit a bunch of configuration files and still spend all night on forums trying to figure out why it's not working.

And your real estate neighbor lady is going to get pretty disillusioned when she finds there's virtually no software or support for her business on Linux, and she has to hire a small cadre of software and systems geeks to keep her system running.

Not that that would be a bad thing. Better than them sitting around writing viruses, making the world miserable for the rest of us.

99.99% of the population are not sysadmins, and they don't wanna be sysadmins. They want to write letters, surf the net, do their books, make pretty pictures. They don't want to spend a weekend reconfiguring their system.

On Macs
I have a Mac - I keep it around for cross-development purposes. I can't say it's better than Windows. I think a lot of the navigation paradigms are better on Windows. Trying to get help can be an adventure - the cult is highly defensive to any perceived criticism. When I posted a question in a Mac forum about putting the machine in instant 'hibernation' mode, the first response was: "It's possible, but difficult." Which didn't tell me how to do it. The second response was: "Why would you want to do that, anyway? The way it works is perfectly adequate!"

Thank God for the commandline interface buried down in the system utilities. That's in my launcher, thank you very much.

Oh - I really like the Dashboard. That's a cool thihng.

The Best OS's
Personally, I happen to think that BSDs are the more elegant OS's, but you have to have brains to run them - more importantly, you have to be willing to learn about the OS's to run them. In depth and in greater detail than you might have believed would be necessary.

Synopsis
Anyway, as folks have pointed out, Microsoft is much more than just the OS. Really, it's been a vision: Gates' vision. It's been my experience that when the visionary leaves and the bean-counters take over, the company is headed for the toilet.

That may well happen to Microsoft as Gates steps down. But, they've got a whale of a lot of momentum.

It won't happen overnight.

rickb

[carlos_p]

Ah! I smell another battle in the never-ending OS Wars!
Let me tell throw some wood onto this fire...

Microsoft:
This is a huge company with the most aggressive business tactics this lonely planet has ever seen. Have you noticed that a PC with no OS installed will cost you more than a PC with Windows pre-installed (at least around here)? Are you keeping score of how many promising young companies MS has bought off only to sink them and their promising products? Have you noticed their marketing madness?
Anyway, Microsoft is a huge and very stable company, but I believe it will not recover from Bill Gates' retirement. IMO, the man was the company, actually.

Operating Systems:
People take these for granted. As someone already hinted here, in fact there are some of us who think OSs shouldn't even exist.
Check the link, read the book, start questioning yourself. Do you really need to care about folders and desktops, interrupts and drivers, files and preferences?... It is refreshing to see that some of Jef Raskin's 20-year old ideas are only recently being adopted in some systems (yes, mainly by Apple). But more refreshing yet, Jef's heirs have continued his work.

MS Windows:
In a word, it sucks. I've worked with a lot of different OSs, from CP/M to DOS, all of MS Windows flavors, all of Mac's OSs, plus DEC VMS, UNIX, Linux, etc. Today I have 4 Macs and 2 PCs.
IMHO, the main reason why Windows sucks is the whole foundation of the damned thing. This is a software package built like a shantytown: very little structure and a lot of patches.

Virii and the like:
Is it that Windows is more prone to these just because of more exposure? I don't think so. Windows has a lot of features which in fact poke holes into any security policy you might want to enforce. And the holes you may patch can in fact be open again on the next OS patch downloaded from MS...
Let me ask you: who writes virus and trojans? do you actually believe the people who do this don't have access to *nix or MacOS? How will you explain that in the past 20 years I only had 2 virus infections on any of my Macs (and both from the same fairly harmless worm), while in Windows there's a dozen new virus born every day?

Networking MacOS and Windows:
I have never experienced any problem whatsoever in networking MacOS and Windows. And I mean from MacOS 8 onwards and Windows-98 onwards (except Windows ME, which was the only OS capable of crashes due to conflicts between its own internal components).

Upgrades & auto-updates:
These can be harmful. In any platform. Make sure your computer is running the software YOU want it to. There are frequent patches for patches! MacOS isn't free from this issue either: I can remember two or three instances of 'borked' MacOS software updates.

In conclusion...
I'm glad to finally see some people take action and actually get a computer to fulfill their needs and not just follow the herd.
A lot more could be said about these issues; I, for one, could. However, for the sake of brevity, I'll just (strongly!) encourage people to read Jef Raskin's "The Humane Interface". But beware: your tolerance levels for awkward OS's behavior will suffer a huge decrease...

[chadhaajay]

Hello Everyone,

I've read this thread thoroughly and saw that over 98% of the participants are not in favor of Microsoft but to be very frank, I'm totally in favor of Microsoft. There products are the best in the market and everyone else follows them. It doesn’t matter if the products have some issues or bugs in their first release because every other software has some bugs and security flaws when it is released to the public for the first time. Why don't you consider the bright side that they are open to hear suggestions and continuously working on to improve their products quality so that there are no or very few security issues.

I've never opted for Mac or Linux and neither do I want to be. All the machines in our company run on Windows XP with Service Pack 2 installed and the latest versions of Avast antivirus, Spybot Search & Destroy, Office Professional 2003 and Zone Alarm professional edition Firewall.

I've seen some people who just complain with MS products just because they don't know how to maintain there PC in good health. Microsoft is not to be blamed just because there products have some security issues. All softwares have security issues. The best thing is that they are constantly working on to release patches for known issues to make the Windows a top class Operating System.

So, in order to conclude my post I once again would like to say that Microsoft is the best. Don’t judge this statement in a way to think that I'm against Linux and MAC. I do have full respect for them but I personally love MS products.

Sincerely,

Ajay Chadha (Director)
Chadha Software Technologies

[ron angel]

Originally Posted by chadhaajay

Hello Everyone,

I've read this thread thoroughly and saw that over 98% of the participants are not in favor of Microsoft but to be very frank, I'm totally in favor of Microsoft. There products are the best in the market and everyone else follows them. It doesn’t matter if the products have some issues or bugs in their first release because every other software has some bugs and security flaws when it is released to the public for the first time. Why don't you consider the bright side that they are open to hear suggestions and continuously working on to improve their products quality so that there are no or very few security issues.

I've never opted for Mac or Linux and neither do I want to be. All the machines in our company run on Windows XP with Service Pack 2 installed and the latest versions of Avast antivirus, Spybot Search & Destroy, Office Professional 2003 and Zone Alarm professional edition Firewall.

I've seen some people who just complain with MS products just because they don't know how to maintain there PC in good health. Microsoft is not to be blamed just because there products have some security issues. All softwares have security issues. The best thing is that they are constantly working on to release patches for known issues to make the Windows a top class Operating System.

So, in order to conclude my post I once again would like to say that Microsoft is the best. Don’t judge this statement in a way to think that I'm against Linux and MAC. I do have full respect for them but I personally love MS products.

Sincerely,

Ajay Chadha (Director)
Chadha Software Technologies

This sums it up. I totally agree with mr chadhaajay
on this and his combination of software except for I use macafee antivirus with zone alarm pro as I personaly believe it to be a better combination.

I had the pleasure of meeting bill gates at the launch of windows 3.0 in london uk many years ago (it seems that way anyway!)before he was famous I was impressed by him just an ordinary pleasent polite computer buff, and even more by the program which I and most people at the venue the like of had never seen before. I ordered and paid for a copy on the spot receiving it a week or two later in a white blank box. we owe him and his work a lot. look how far he has got. This board and the net probably would not exist in the way it does without microsoft.
I would say that 90% of people writing here are using win 98 nt 2000 or xp as their operating system
www.ssrichardmontgomery.com

[USALUG]

To mess up a Linux box, you need to work at it; to mess up your Windows box, you just need to work on it.

and in the words of an anonymous poster on the net ....

I hear MS Windows users talking about running spybot, adaware, how they just bought the latest Norton antivirus and what it didn't catch and what viruses and trojans they have to remove by hand and how to repair the registry. How they did a system restore that didn't fix the problem and how they had to do a complete reinstall and then couldn't find their drivers disk.

Then how the local computer whiz kid worked on it.
Then how they took it to bestbuy where it gets screwed up more.
Then how they finally take it to a local mom and pop shop where it gets fixed,
for almost as much as they originally paid for it.

Trust me Windows users, Linux is easier.

[untmarkb]

I am not a fan of their operating system anymore. This new found disgust comes after one of our major clients was badly affected by a recent update. Shut his server down for 5 days. Lots of money lost at the hands of Microsoft....

[TrafficProducer]

Microsoft a sinking ship?

Joking please don't sue me..

Microsoft a sinking ship?

Don't rats leave the sniking ship...

When's Bill due to retire again :)

####
HARDWARE issues:-

M$ have decided to completely revamp the architecture so that it is much closer to the Linux model

Operating Systems for most Intel CPU machines need have to use Memory Management to get round the 640K barriers, also the 1M wall..

Windows handles this quite well but I believe Apple's do not have this memory problem and therefore are able to run because of this.

The 640k are and old DOS issues that newer Intel CPU are built on. Until they rebuild the CPU to solve this there will always be extra clock cycles, delays, over other CPU's

Technical..
Windows is not an Operating System but a GUI, (Graphical User Interface), for the O/S.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by TrafficProducer

Technical..
Windows is not an Operating System but a GUI, (Graphical User Interface), for the O/S.

And DOS a command interpreter. Though the fastest file you can make (in DOS - subtask if you want) goes like this.

copy con soul.bat
echo Windows XP is the soul in my computer.
echo The computer, the body.
echo Other software, including hosted applications the spirit.
echo any other comments?
cd \
help
help md
md training
cd training
dir
F6

.............................

copy con mysql.bat
cd\programfiles\xamp\mysql\bin
mysgl -h localhost -u root
F6

..............................

mysql

Enter password

show databases;
use mysql;
show tables;
select * from host;

--------------------------------------------

debug
?
d
a
r
q

:-)

[carlos_p]

Originally Posted by ron angel

I would say that 90% of people writing here are using win 98 nt 2000 or xp as their operating system

Right... read back, please. There are lots of people here saying they don't use windows.

But you have to understand that MS has got a huge momentum; I can't simply ignore it because I don't like to use MS products, and nobody can say MS is "a sinking ship" because their customer base is HUGE!

I do use Windows (very seldom, but regurlarly), because millions of people use it: all the sites I develop must look good on the wretched MS IE browser.

If I didn't develop sites, you can be sure I wouldn't even glance in the direction of a Windows PC.

[DrTandem1]

Microsoft brought computing to the average person. With its accessibility and popularity, hackers were attracted, much like the original phone freaks. If Linux or any other OS becomes as popular, it will suffer the same fate.

Many complain of MS's older OSs of crashing. While I agree this is true, it is more because of its versatility than because of a poor design.

MS is running a good TV spot. It shows "Alberto," a new hire, who can't even figure out how to operate the office coffee machine. However, when he gets to his cubicle, turns on his computer, he hits the ground running. The corporate computers in the spot run on MS.

Conversely, Mac has a TV spot with two spokesmen of each OS, MS and Mac. It shows the MS spokesman locking up while he tries to speak. Quite humorous. Playing on MS's reputation for crashing. However, I have heard Mac users complain of similar issues, lately.

The more an OS is tasked to do, the more of an opportunity it will have of crashing. Smaller, less ubiquitous OSs, have little exposure and interaction with other software. Therefore, their systems have little chance of being exposed to third-party vendors.

Accessibility breeds vulnerability. Increased popularity increases targeting.

[khurramali]

Vista has been hailed as the most secure operating system by microsoft yet. I have my reservations because the same statements were made by microst when they launched WIN XP. They should not make these statements as they only prove themselves wrong.

I have heard of the major problem in the networking stack of Vista as they have created everything afresh. so it is expected to have its fair share of problems.

WIN XP was just a makeover on WIN NT and WIN 2000 so it evolved, but VISTA is new so there could potentially be more unseen problems lurking in the shadows.

The only thing that can sink microsoft at the moment is a bad vista build shipping off.

[DrTandem1]

The same statement was made by Mac. It was hacked within minutes.

[kgun]

Originally Posted by DrTandem1

Microsoft brought computing to the average person. With its accessibility and popularity, hackers were attracted, much like the original phone freaks. If Linux or any other OS becomes as popular, it will suffer the same fate.

Exactly.

[danno]

resubmitting post

[danno]

Originally Posted by jawn_tech

I'd say Apple is a sinking ship, before MS would be.

Apple doesn't even own the patent for their famous IPod -- Microsoft beat them to the punch by filing 5 months before Apple did. If they're not successful in appealing the decision, they could end up having to pay Microsoft royalties on every iPod sold. Now think if that also means retro-active. Adios, Apple.

Nonobviousness Requirement:

If an invention is not exactly the same as prior products or processes (which are referred to as the "prior art"), then it is considered novel. However, in order for an invention to be patentable, it must not only be novel, but it must also be a nonobvious improvement over the prior art. This determination is made by deciding whether the invention sought to be patented would have been obvious "to one of ordinary skill in the art." In other words, the invention is compared to the prior art and a determination is made whether the differences in the new invention would have been obvious to a person having ordinary skill in the type of technology used in the invention.

Therefore no judge in their right mind is going to award a patent to Microsoft that makes iPod prior art. A copy of an invention is not an invention. Period.

They probably just want to stall paying royalties to Apple for a few quarters. Normal, everyday business practice.

Nice try.

[mushroom]

Originally Posted by kgun

Exactly.

This has to be the biggest urban legend ever.

The malware count for Microsoft products exceeds 300,000 while the count for all other OS's combined is less than 500.

[danno]

Originally Posted by danno

Windows Vista and Internet Explorer 7 on an Intel Mac will be invulnerable
thanks to virtualization.

http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic...nerable#319581

[whipnet]

Originally Posted by mushroom

This has to be the biggest urban legend ever.

The malware count for Microsoft products exceeds 300,000 while the count for all other OS's combined is less than 500.

As stated many times here in this thread alone, the targets hackers are after are not using Linux, Mac, etc... Noobs and corporations use Windows and the number of Mac users out there equals to that of a popcorn fart in a nuclear blast.

*

[DrTandem1]

Originally Posted by mushroom

The malware count for Microsoft products exceeds 300,000 while the count for all other OS's combined is less than 500.

That's about the same as the ratio for their respective users. Phone Freaks (or phreaks) attacked the Bell system, not General Telephone or any other independent of the time. Do you think the others were not as vulnerable? No, they were not as popular or as ubiquitous.

When in North America and you see a hoof print, you look for horses, not zebras.

Much like the VHS/Beta battle of the 80's, the marketplace has spoken. Ease of use and more popular accessories available, PC has overshadowed Mac. Both were born in a garage, so I don't need to hear the BS about corporate giants.

[khurramali]

In the past, virus were written to damage computer systems, then the virus writers realized that they were not gaining from it.

so now their main objective is to gain control over your computer and use it to either infect other machines (worms), send spam email, use the zombi machine to send DOS attacks.

And have more recently started displaying advertisements so people can click the ads and earn revenue for the malware programers.

One solid reason why all this is happening is becuase internet explorer is closely knit in the OS, so if ie crashes, then the OS crashes, ie gets infected, your PC gets infected. In the past you could not even un-install IE, but after service pack 2, ie is optional, you can un-install it and use firefox instead.

That will definately keep some malware / spyware away.

[carlos_p]

Microsoft will not likely sink in the desktop market. Period. They've got too large of a user base.

As for other markets, I'm not that sure. Take a look at these numbers from netcraft, for instance:

Originally Posted by DrTandem1

Microsoft brought computing to the average person.

Microsoft didn't do this. A couple of guys at IBM did. Some folks in Europe will tell you that who brought computing to the average person was Clive Sinclair. Others will tell you it was Atari, Commodore or Armstrad. Some of us still remember how it was 20 or more years ago.
Furthermore, that's just like saying "McDonalds brought hamburgers to the average person" -- the only sane reply is "Yeah... Whatever".

With its accessibility and popularity, hackers were attracted, much like the original phone freaks. If Linux or any other OS becomes as popular, it will suffer the same fate.

I would assume everyone in here would know what a "hacker" is, and the difference between one and a "script kiddie". Hackers have been known to enter all kinds of systems and platforms. The truth of the matter is that Windows has bullseyes painted all over. It's the easiest target for malware.
Some years ago I had a student who was a completely ignorant in computers. He bought a PC and within a week he was already "hacking" into other people's PCs over the internet. He wasn't a "hacker". In fact, he wasn't very bright, nor "techy", or whatever. It's just that it's so easy to wreak havoc into Windows...

Many complain of MS's older OSs of crashing. While I agree this is true, it is more because of its versatility than because of a poor design.

"Versatile" shouldn't be a synonym of "Hazardous".
Some people have a lot to learn about design in general and software design in particular. Though I'm repeating myself, I advise you to read this book and some of this blog.

Conversely, Mac has a TV spot with two spokesmen of each OS, MS and Mac. It shows the MS spokesman locking up while he tries to speak. Quite humorous. Playing on MS's reputation for crashing. However, I have heard Mac users complain of similar issues, lately.

These kind of vague and unverifiable statements always make me smile. I must say I too have rebooted my G5 Mac. A total of 2 or 3 times over a period of 2 years... I keep it running most of the time. I only shut it down if I have to go away for at least a couple of days, so there you have it.
I must add I'm using this computer for more than just web surfing and other mundane tasks. I really push it: from hardcore programming to testing web services, 3d modeling and rendering, illustration and design, animation, high-end image editing, web and multimedia development... you name it: it can handle anything I throw at it.
(I should say an application crashed while I was writing this. Guess what? Entourage...)

[mushroom]

Let's not forget the laws of nature.

Preditors will always attack the weakest in the herd.

Windows is the weakest OS out there and will suffer the bulk of the attacks untill it becomes to hard to find.

Heck Windows is the only OS that I am aware of that requires extra protection before it connects to the internet.

[DrTandem1]

I believe your graph represents servers, not OS users.

Yes, the C64 and Atari were around along with a couple of others for a short time. They were not however, operating systems, unless you call knowing Basic an operating system.

Microsoft allowed the non-programmer to get into computing.

Yes, I used the term "hacker" as a blanket term. Basically, someone who enters a system from other than the front door. A social engineer is not necessarily a hacker, as they often don't use technology to gain unauthorized access. They usually pose as an authorized user and gain access through the front door by acquiring passwords and such.

No, your analogy of McDonald's hamburgers to MS's Windows is a poor one. Anyone could make or eat a hamburger with or without McDonald's. Not just anyone could use a computer without an OS to interface with the machine language. It required a certain level of programming skill.

Also, I never claimed that there was a problem with your Mac. Use whatever you like. Just don't expect the world to follow you because the technology is better. As Betamax was technologically better than VHS, VHS won the marketplace.

The more versatile the product and accessible it is, the more popular it will become. There are things about MS that I don't like such as Frontpage. It is popular for the simple reason that it doesn't require much skill to create a web page.

Personally, I haven't had any problems with computers running XP on my LAN and I probably have far more programs running than the average user. On the other hand, I have a neighbor with two Macs and has nothing but trouble trying to network them. Whether it is them or their Mac, I don't know. I tend to think it is them, because Macs generally attract the less technically inclined. They are artists.

I did have one machine a while back that used ME. It was a disaster.

[carlos_p]

Originally Posted by DrTandem1

I believe your graph represents servers, not OS users.

Please read my previous post again. I don't believe MS will ever sink in the desktop OS market. I was refering to other markets besides the desktop OS. This graph represents server software. MS Windows desktop market share is deemed to be around 90%.

Yes, the C64 and Atari were around along with a couple of others for a short time. They were not however, operating systems, unless you call knowing Basic an operating system.

Please don't get me wrong. I was refering to the fact that it was IBM actually that allowed widespread use of microcomputers, with the advent of the IBM PC and its public domain blueprint and use of fairly common parts. All others were hence to be called "proprietary systems" because of that.

Microsoft allowed the non-programmer to get into computing.
(...)
No, your analogy of McDonald's hamburgers to MS's Windows is a poor one. Anyone could make or eat a hamburger with or without McDonald's. Not just anyone could use a computer without an OS to interface with the machine language. It required a certain level of programming skill.

Do you mean that non-programmers weren't able to load a wordprocessor or a paint program on a pre-Windows-age computer?
What do people do with the OS? Just interface with applications and the content they create/edit in those applications.
My point is: before Windows came into being, people with no programming skills used their computers to do their accounting, word processing, etc. Of course there's a lot more applications now and we can't really make a proper comparison between the market 20 years back to what it is now, but still...
However, I do grant Windows its merits: it came to standardize the market for PC applications and its interfaces, and provided a common base for developers to work on.

Also, I never claimed that there was a problem with your Mac. Use whatever you like. Just don't expect the world to follow you because the technology is better. As Betamax was technologically better than VHS, VHS won the marketplace.

I never tried to force my views onto people here. I don't expect people to follow me in anything. I'm not "selling" anything here. I was just giving some precise information in reply to a vague comment about the subject of Mac crashes.
But I don't understand: if people admit the technology is better, then why stick with the worst?

As for your reference to Betamax, the irony is that, after all, Betamax lost that battle but won the war! VHS is losing it to DVD, while Betamax stays strong in the professional market...