FireFox

[Izzmo]

So, what do you guys think of FireFox for Designing purposes, coding, and just plain browsing? Now, don't get me wrong, FireFox is good for just a casual browser and not a heavy forum talker or designer/coder. FireFox seems to mess the smallest things up like at WebProWorld Forums, right here. I try and post a reply and I click on the submit button, but the stupid thing keeps going to the Preview page instead, and after about 10 times, it finally goes through. I go to IE though, and it will never happen.

Don't get me wrong, FF is a good browser, I even support the http://www.SpreadFireFox.com and putting their link on my site.

So, what do you guys think about FireFox? Suggestions, Comments? Please state your issues!

[Faglork]

a) I do not get any of the problems you mentioned.

b) I use FF as only browser now, others only for compatibility checking. I have almost no issues whatsoever, except when encountering some non-DOM-compatible javascript (I ignore those sites anyway). Forums? No probs. Maybe you should check your caching options.

c) I use FF as main development tool (with the help of a handful of excellent extensions), and it enables me to code almost error-free, cross-browser-compatible pages from scratch (I code by hand). I can't even think how I could ever live without that - it speeds up development by lightyears (just kidding but it is fast - ask ctabuk ...)

d) If you code valid xhtml strict (and employ the corresponding DTD!!), there will be almost no cross-browser issues, as long as you feed IE 5 the distorted values it needs (a.k.a. "broken box model"). Problems will arise if you code for non-compliant browsers or compliant browsers in "quirks mode", so take care of your DTDs. Cross-browser issues are - in most cases - the result of non-standard or broken code or, as mentioned, wrong DTDs.

Alex

[InfoMiner]

Who in their right mind argue that IE is better than FireFox? You've either just come back from Mars or had a time lapse of about two years or so. Do a simple Google search regarding this issue, you will find yourself a many more arguments on this subject.

[Izzmo]

Weird.. I just had to switch over to Internet Explorer right now to reply to this because FF was messing up again.

I just got a new error: I try to type something in a input box and the STUPID FIND BAR keeps popping up and won't let me type.

I've already tried reinstalling, doesn't help. At this rate, I'm thinking about totally UNsupporting firefox and going to a site where it hates it.. who knows.

[Faglork]

Originally Posted by Izzmo

Weird.. I just had to switch over to Internet Explorer right now to reply to this because FF was messing up again.

You should correctly state "my installation of firefox was messing up again", since many others here use firefox in this forum without any problems.

It's not firefox ... I made all my contributions to WPW (quite a lot) with FF.

Alex

[ADAM Web Design]

Originally Posted by InfoMiner

Who in their right mind argue that IE is better than FireFox? You've either just come back from Mars or had a time lapse of about two years or so. Do a simple Google search regarding this issue, you will find yourself a many more arguments on this subject.

There are also tons of results on Google supporting White Pride, alien encounters, and zoophilia. What's your point? That because some people support it, and that their viewpoints have somehow gotten into Google SERPs, that their viewpoints are correct?

And even if the majority did support your viewpoint (and browser statistics indicate that they don't), we also believed in chucking women off of cliffs to see if they were witches and curing illness with bloodsucking leeches. The majority doesn't always make the right call.

IE doesn't use 1/5 of the machine resource FF does. And that's before "extensions".

IE doesn't have a safe mode because it doesn't need one. No browser should need a safe mode. Period. This is just insane.

IE doesn't publish its source code, making it available to anyone with black hat intentions.

IE, if configured correctly along with one's computer in general, can run without intrusion.

IE doesn't have the disadvantage of having volunteer coders that would likely not give FF their first priority if and when something goes wrong. If you're using a browser for commercial purposes, then this is an issue.

IE has some cool CSS filters (e.g. the MS Gradient) that FF doesn't.

FF is bloatware. Come on...how many of you would
actually USE all of those searches in the search bar FF provides? "Oh, but they can be customized." Gimme a damn break. Most people have maybe 1 or 2 engines that they use and that's it.

The only reason FF is "updated" more frequently than IE is simply because it has to be. You launch a new product, there are going to be screwups.

The "marketing" for FF is just ridiculous. "Take back the web." From who? Who owns it? Microsoft, based on browser share? Oh my god. This could be a serious problem considering they make $0 off of the browser.

"But it's supplied with Windows, and you can't get rid of it, and they're making money off of the operating system so in a way it's commercial." First of all, if you don't use it, it doesn't take up resource. So people do have the choice. Second, many ISPs (e.g. Bell Sympatico) do supply multiple browsers as part of their installation software. So it's not like people don't have a choice. Third, if that is the case, why doesn't FF go ahead and build a whole OS around the browser to compete? If MS has laid out the rules of the game like that, then FF should if they're smart be playing along.

Microsoft creates packages of software and ties them together with one another better than any other company. Is this wrong? I don't think so. Try taking the body of a Honda, drop a Ford engine into that, maybe a radiator from a Chevy, and see how it works. With software, it's the same concept.

The ONLY thing that I prefer in FF over IE, and this goes back to the Netscape days, is the Javascript console. If IE adopted that, i would have no practical use for FF at all.

As far as rendering of web pages, I've found that IE generally gets more right than FF in about a 3-3.5:1 margin.

IE > FF.

[xmx]

I like Firefox, but I should say I like Mozilla.

Firefox is a light version of Mozilla that includes
also the Composer that is a HTML editor.

Strange fact, I installed yesterday the google bar
on my firefox and had problems with the bookmarks
not loading correctly all the times.

I uninstalled that extension and everything worked
correctly again.

[Izzmo]

I agree.

The only real use I have for FF is the tabbing. Other than that.. don't care... screws up more things than it does good.. but yet I still use it.. who knows.

[DesignerNews5]

Why do you IE guys spend so much time bashing Firefox? A quick look at your portfolio work shows invalid coding and amateurish design work (at best).

As long as you’re producing ragged design crap, nobody is going to listen to your glorious reviews of IE. Less time writing and more time learning, don’t you think?

[ADAM Web Design]

DesignerNews5: And what have you done to establish yourself as someone any of us should be listening to? All I've seen from you so far is "You're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong, Firefox is great." And nothing else.

Either come up with something, ANYTHING, legitimate to back up your claim (which I don't think you can) and then show YOUR wonderful coding on something you've done that will establish you as someone we should listen to, or just admit you have nothing and move on. In other words, put up or shut up.

[brian.mark]

I like FF because IE still has issues with keepalives in SSL sessions. If you don't have to deal with SSL at all, then it doesn't make a lot of difference.

The latest MSN Toolbar update has fixed the memory issues for me. Resources now seem about equal.

Personally, I use FF for development, SEOpen is such an amazing resource for creating new pages. If I want to use IE, I have the "View in IE" extension. I don't ever having coding issues with either, other than early FF which didn't like font color tags without the #. I use IE5 quite a bit in Virtual PC for testing, but most development I do in FF.

I've done most of my posting in FF, and I do get the submit = preview on occasion, but it has to do with phpBB and a spam prevention setting from what I've noticed with my own phpBB install. If I go to a thread through an email link and post quickly, then do another the same way it previews. I've had the same issue with IE.

If IE had decent tabs (crazybrowser is pretty good, but not totally customizeable like FF and doesn't have the other extensions I like), it'd get more use by me.

Brian.

[Faglork]

Looks like a beginning browser war at WPW ;-)

Folks, lets cool down. The only difference that really matters for us a professionals is how the rendering engine of the browser works because this will directly affect our work.

Given that, the Gecko engine has by far better CSS support than IE, which supports only core elements of CSS1/2. Nobody says that Gecko is bug-free, but compared with IE there is a huge difference. Let me just pick a few: IE does not support min-width, max-width, position:fixed, :before and :after pseudo elements, child selectors ...

If IE would adhere to standards like Gecko, we all could write entirely different code.

It is - in most cases - not Gecko which "displays wrong" but it is IE which gets it wrong firsthand. However, if you "code for IE" and not for W3C standards, then of course any Gecko-based browser will display this differently.

SO: If you write XHTML STRICT with the appropriate DTD and avoid those CSS attributes which IE does not understand and avoid those CSS attributes which only IE understands because they are non-standard and provide a hack for IE5 to accomodate for its broken box model, THEN there will be almost no difference between IE and Gecko engines.

This will *always* be the solution: wirite for a compliant browser, then apply some hacks for non-compliant ones. If you do it the other way round, it will be a nightmare.

MS has promised better CSS2 support for IE7 - it was the top item on the wishlist. I really hope they get it right now.

Now for the fun stuff:

There seems to be a way for IE to make it more compliant:
http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/overview/
I have not tested this, but it looks VERY promising.
This could really end our nightmares.

BTW, from the feature list you can see what IE is lacking:
http://dean.edwards.name/IE7/overview/
Talk about compliant browsers ...

I wish more people were like Dean: Instead of yammering, go ahead and find a solution.

Have fun,
Alex

[DesignerNews5]

ADAMWebDesign: Are you dense? Instead of writing just to write, why don’t you read and attempt to understand? People in this forum are giving you an education – so thank them instead of running-off with your ridiculous claims.

If you are going to present yourself as a professional, then your own designs should work. But they don’t.

Web standards: your own designs don’t validate. Even you meta and title tags are miswritten. So when you mention anything about coding standards, nobody listens.

Design presentation: why criticize FF’s handling of CSS when you don’t know how to apply it? Your own designs are graphically poor and present in an ineffective manner. Since you fail to understand the basics of CSS, stop talking about its proper use.

Marketing: you mention FF has a poor marketing effort. If you are going to address the success of FF, then their marketing effort IS working.

Do you even have an idea as to what marketing involves. Since marketing (targeted or otherwise) is not incorporated into any of your own work, I’ll guess it’s simply a term you toss around.

All your other points are a waste of ink and you’re misguiding those people who should consider another browser for design testing or everyday use. Do you misguide your clients in this same manner?

I’m being tough with you for a reason. Try and understand that being a professional designer means providing guidance to those looking for answers. Even though knowledgeable people have tried to help, you seem to write first and learn second. Try it the other way around.

[InfoMiner]

There are also tons of results on Google supporting White Pride, alien encounters, and zoophilia. What's your point? That because some people support it, and that their viewpoints have somehow gotten into Google SERPs, that their viewpoints are correct?

I've referred Google as a search engine. You're on your own if in return you're looking for guidance and wisdom.

And even if the majority did support your viewpoint (and browser statistics indicate that they don't), we also believed in chucking women off of cliffs to see if they were witches and curing illness with bloodsucking leeches. The majority doesn't always make the right call.

What does majority have to do with anything?
Statistics provide us with a "fact" that Windows Bloatware is most widely used Operating System, but would you argue like a sheep that its most supported by security professionals?

"The majority doesn't always make the right call" - You've just contractived your own statement there. Stand in line with the rest of IE lovers.

IE doesn't use 1/5 of the machine resource FF does. And that's before "extensions".

Only if you're running a 486 with 8MB of ram. IE is integrated into the OS and its NOT lightweight compared to fresh installed FireFox

IE doesn't have a safe mode because it doesn't need one. No browser should need a safe mode. Period. This is just insane.

IE doesnt have anything "safe". Infact, the only thing it has is "UNsafe". If you believe safe modes are unnecessary, then you're either a MAC user (designer eh?) who runs to a local shop to get all the problems fixed or don't even understand the reason behind a safemode.

IE doesn't publish its source code, making it available to anyone with black hat intentions.

And thus ran into having an "award" for most buggy, exploted and beaten up security flaw the world has yet to bear.. If you believe Open Source brings us danger because of "BlackHat"sters (who become WhiteHat once they grow up) -- you're clueless.

IE, if configured correctly along with one's computer in general, can run without intrusion.

Firefox doesn't need to be configured and updated on a weekly basis to be even HALF better than IE. You'd have surf 3 minutes a day at most using IE, only go to approved sites and pray that your system is clean.

IE doesn't have the disadvantage of having volunteer coders that would likely not give FF their first priority if and when something goes wrong. If you're using a browser for commercial purposes, then this is an issue.

Because commercial coders are SO ENTHUSIASTIC to fix all of the hundreds of flaws that are STILL available. Perhaps you haven't heard of all the IE flaws that took Microsoft about 3 months to fix back in January. Little of that happens in Open Source community.

IE has some cool CSS filters (e.g. the MS Gradient) that FF doesn't.

And thats why we should ALL forget about FireFox. Because IE has some "Crayola Mode" functions that make your pea brain tinkle.

FF is bloatware. Come on...how many of you would
actually USE all of those searches in the search bar FF provides? "Oh, but they can be customized." Gimme a damn break. Most people have maybe 1 or 2 engines that they use and that's it.

What are you, just dumb? If anything is bloatware, it is almost all of Microsoft's products included IE. Firefox is MUCH more flexible than IE and your only excuse against that is that "Oh My Gosh, Its Too Much For Me Please Put Meh Pretty IE Back"

The only reason FF is "updated" more frequently than IE is simply because it has to be. You launch a new product, there are going to be screwups.

Silly, IE had and still will have WAY more updates than FireFox. Your next excuse will either be :

- Its because IE's been around longer
- Its because IE is more popular
- Its because IE is not open source

You clueless screwup.

The "marketing" for FF is just ridiculous. "Take back the web." From who? Who owns it? Microsoft, based on browser share? Oh my god. This could be a serious problem considering they make $0 off of the browser.

Since you're doing much better than them, you should talk the talk and walk the walk, right?

What, ran out of anything to pick on about FireFox? How about the logo, make fun of it. Or it being a "fire fox". Maybe that will sway everyone to your opinions.

You're clueless about marketing. To you, marketing probably is a synonym for selling.. *Sigh*

"But it's supplied with Windows, and you can't get rid of it, and they're making money off of the operating system so in a way it's commercial." First of all, if you don't use it, it doesn't take up resource. So people do have the choice. Second, many ISPs (e.g. Bell Sympatico) do supply multiple browsers as part of their installation software. So it's not like people don't have a choice. Third, if that is the case, why doesn't FF go ahead and build a whole OS around the browser to compete? If MS has laid out the rules of the game like that, then FF should if they're smart be playing along.

Bunch of gibberish. Not bad for a 5 year old.

As far as rendering of web pages, I've found that IE generally gets more right than FF in about a 3-3.5:1 margin.

IE is made in hopes of being idiot proof. No wonder it attracts them as well.

IE > FF.

Don't drop the crayon.



:D

[ADAM Web Design]

* laughs out loud *

I guess I should update the portfolio, since there is a lot of newer stuff in it that I choose not to put in there for the time being.

I would show either of you two these sites, but I'm sure you'd both find something nitpicky and small to deal with.

Both of you represent the biggest reason why FF will ultimately fail (or never really gain any significant share outside of the designer community). Who wants to listen to two people that can't present an intelligent argument and have to result to childish name-calling? Do you talk to other people the same way?

DesignerNews5, a little advice: when you try to impose your "tough love" on someone (which, by the way, made me snort water out my nose from laughing so hard), look a little harder at the board. You'll notice that some people have a little logo underneath their names. It says "MVP". Very few people in here get those awarded to them, and they're all awarded for a reason. When someone has one of those, they have generally earned the respect of the community and when they speak, it carries some weight.

If you want to make an argument for FireFox, make the one that faglork did. At least he took the time to say something intelligent and useful. Learn from him, and learn from me. You don't have to agree with my opinion, and I don't expect everyone to. But at least if you're going to disagree, say something intelligent rather than attack character.

When either one of you two earns the respect, has the guts to put your designs in your signature links, and earns an MVP, I will take you seriously. Until then, you're just two people spouting off at the lip with absolutely NOTHING to back up your claims, and at this point, I will pay neither one of you any more attention.

[johngroup]

How come I don’t have these terrible FF issues? From what’s written here, it’s got to be the worst program in existence! Even though it’s a scary thought, I’ll continue to use FF as my primary testing browser.

In the end, producing good design work for our clients is what counts, right? Maybe not.

[MuNKyonline]

I'm a member of spreadfirefox.com and have links to their downloads from my site. I use Firefox and find it much better than Internet Explorer. Who cares if Firefox uses up more resources? If you have an up to date machine it really doesn't matter. I've had no problems with it crashing or with any of its features.

Internet Explorer is un-secure (I'm not saying Firefox isn't) and nearly everytime I use it I get some form of malware shite on my computer. But when I use Firefox, amazingly enough my computer stays malware free.

I've found that pages normally display better in Firefox and not Internet Explorer! Internet Explorer seems to accept non-standard complient code and therefore pages will display incorrectly in Firefox if they've been optimised for Internet Explorer. All this stupid css stuff that only displays in Internet Explorer is really pointless and shows even more that they aren't willing to comply with standards!

The extensions for Firefox are a great idea and have added in loads of bits that have aided in my designing. The RSS newsfeeds is a wikid idea too - another thing that Internet Explorer doesn't have.

Next thing you'll be saying is that Windows is the best operating system! Try uninstalling Internet Explorer LOL! It's so intergrated into the o/s that it's not suprising it creates so many security flaws!

Internet Explorer better than Firefox? I don't think so!

[KeithO]

I've been using FF for a few months now and have enjoyed it. I use the tabbed browsing mostly. MS has been so reluctant to apply widely accepted w3c standards for reasons I don't understand. I still program my web sites to work equally in IE and FF becaue they have such broad usage. FF development as OS has nothing to do with security or blackhat/whitehat (what does that have to do w/ this I dont know).

I do know that when a security flaw was found in FF a couple months back, within HOURS there was a patch. We have to wait til a Tuesday once a month for MS to patch IE.

I personally don't see why there needs to be a war or exclusions over a browser. Both browsers are free so how can there be any profit?

[Warren Schneider]

Unfortunatly 75% of all people on the web use IE5-6
FireFox Is not 100% compatible with IE websites. It is running behind with some bugs when it comes to new technologies. Webmasters who do comercial websites should still make them IE compatible. I put an Icon at the top or bottom of the page to let surfers know the compatability of the website. FireFox still can not display XHML by Microsoft Publisher 2000-4. FireFox is working on the problem but is slow to make updates in compatability.

FireFox is a good brouser but it can't keep up with the big boys. And the big guys make the rules.