You've already spoken, but then refused to respond when questioned or rebutted. That is less than well mannered.

And, by whippersnapper, do you refer to yourself?

You do, as evidenced by your evasive and non-responsive posts, and now by your ad hominem attacks, present yourself as being but yet one more sophist. Just what the world needs.

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I took you to task for deliberately avoiding the issues of Science, and trying to shift the focus to matters of Policy.

BTW, I note that you've failed to make mention of the costs inherent in doing nothing, all while complaining about those attendant to doing something. This is typical of those who expect that the latter will fall to them, while the former will not.

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I have a general acceptance of a problem with the way we use this planet. I have a general acceptance that point me towards an opinion that does concern me.

I have read scientific reports that were created merely to prove something that the author believed in. I have read items from non believers that quite innocently are blinded by their own emotion. (we are emotional creatures.) I personally have a great faith in the belief that awareness will solve anything.

Awareness suffers when science issues reports that blindly support a belief. These are often easily dismissed as being irrelevant to the situation. These are often merely quoted, often as proof of something entirely different from the truth that they point to. (by believers.) This happens on both sides.

The reason we all know about the polar bear plight? . . It is blatantly pointed at the emotion. Baby Polar bears are cute. The global warming discussions have not yet left the realms of emotional argument. . . It does bring the way we are using the planet into people awareness.

I think everyone should be concerned with presenting the truth. . copy and pasting items that confirm our belief. Having a self belief that we individually understand and know the answers is a bit silly.

Looking out from my veranda the world looks fine, It may not be. (this does concern me) we have no polar Bears here. There is however a growing awareness that there is far more Bullshit than facts, on both sides. . .

__________________

And you sir are a fool and an idiot.

I made my comments back along, you challenged it with a degree of rudeness, I decided then and there that I no longer could see any advantage to discussing the issue with one such as yourself further. You have since needled me, again, been rude and I am still not rising to the occasion, for it is blindingly obvious that you just like arguing over words, just for the sake of it, to try to get some sort of intellectual upperhand over other people that might want to participate in the discussion.

And that sunshine is the essence of it.

I would have enjoyed communicating ideas back and forth with the others here, yourself too, given the chance, but it is you that is making that not possible, not anyone else.

Can see that you are of the, I know more than you camp. I am better qualified / educated / learned than you are camp. I always know best camp. Frankly, I have no interest in even trying to attempt to discuss the issues with you present, which is ignorance at it's best, since your assumption is already, all of the above.

I'll just read from here on and do my best to ignore your comments.

Good day. Nods curtly. Turns heel.

Hm

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts 24.

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Your point?

Dave

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Then kindly decease from random poking.

The UK is today under the grip of artic conditions. As a kid I loved them and as a young adult I drove my Sunbeam Talbot 90 up and down the snowy hills of Buckinghamshire. I never missed a days work because of a drop of snow. The UK grinds to a halt in such conditions. No stamina half of them, just give up and climb under the covers, me I'll be out splitting 2' logs with a 4llb axe.

You can quote all of the resources you care to choose, the simple fact is - we are heading quickly in to unchartered waters, all I can suggest is get out there, have fun and get ready to see a few power cuts on a regular basis, get back to conversations and log fires. Welcome to the Dark Ages part Two.

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Total posts on some other well known forums, well in excess of 35,000 though and discussed a broad range of issues with the best of them online, over the years.

Post counts, what do they mean anyway?

Whether an individual has one post to their name or 100k is of little consequence and matters not, one iota.

If it does matter, perhaps someone would like to point me in the direction to where it says, 'When you get to this X number of posts, you can have the respect you deserve'.

It's a load of poppycock, no offense.

Everyone should be treated the same, whether they have just 24 posts to their name or 24,000.

I can see that there's not much point being on this thread.

Do carry on.

Mark

It may well be snowing galore upcountry David, down here in west Cornwall, it's a gloriously stunning sunny winters day, with not a speck of snow (yet) on the horizon.

The waves are crashing on the shore, casting water droplets high into the air, glinting vividly in the early afternoon sunshine, the fishing rod just outside my window beckoning me to take a walk along the cliffs to a particularly peaceful spot, settle down and perhaps do a spot of fishing to while away a few hours relaxing in the somewhat chilly winter sunshine, or perhaps head out in the boat, down the Helford River towards Calamansack Creek or Frenchmans Creek and try my luck for some bass, which would taste rather scrumptious for supper this evening, in front of the fire.

If this is the economic dark ages part two, it really ain't that bad.

Long as I've got a good flask of steaming hot tea, a hot pasty, a bit of Classic FM on the radio, a decent coat, a warm wooly hat and a fishing rod, what more do I need?

Kindest regards.

Mark

Uh, no.. I'm in the breakroom, taking a break..

You mean uncharted waters in the modern age, or the last couple of generations..

Little Ice Age - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are We on the Brink of a 'New Little Ice Age?' : Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
Actually some pretty interesting reading..

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I'm smelling a whole lot of if coming off of this plan.

Feydakin, it matters not if the post is in the recreation area of the forum, we do not wish to see 'sniping', and that goes for all parties, but you at least were open enough to confess.

In answer to your points. It will not happen overnight, it may well take years and years. Today Heathrow one of the busiest airports in the world, has one runway in use. One plane at Stanstead slid off the runway, at least there were no injuries. The point I am making is that with few exceptions it is almost as if we are witnessing at first hand the beginings of a total change. As a nation, if central heating systems start to fail from the cold, then I can tell you here and now, that many families will simply not know how to cope. Indeed we are seeing that today on UK news. Around twenty years ago I made my money by felling trees and selling logs, (we replanted after with softwoods) As a race we have become too dependant on simply taking everything for granted. Throw a switch and the heating comes on, those days may well pass.

I'm in a UK Wildlife forum, and two weeks ago I made a post 'Little Egrets have arrived in Mallard Hurn, our first ever sightings, being pure white methinks the snow can not be far behind'

Nature has taught to me as a kid helped me to survive a whole year living off the land, some would call it 'poaching' I call it 'survival'.

We have ignored all the signs around us, sure there have been demo's on save the planet, followed no doubt by an evening in Mac Donalds.


You referred to this

The Little Ice Age (LIA) was a period of cooling occurring after a warmer era known as the Medieval Warm Period or Medieval Climate Optimum.[1] The term was introduced into scientific literature by François E. Matthes in 1939.[2] Climatologists and historians working with local records no longer expect to agree on either the start or end dates of this period, which varied according to local conditions. Some confine the Little Ice Age to approximately the 16th century to the mid 19th century.[3] It is generally agreed that there were three minima, beginning about 1650, about 1770, and 1850, each separated by slight warming intervals.[4]


Without resorting to my novel - I did actually have to research 1658 and the summer of that year was amazingly hot, followed by a terrible winter that saw William Duke of Orange having to postpone his invasion plans for a whole year. BUT, in the UK now, we have not had a hot summer in years.

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Thanks for the laugh, that made my morning..

You are right, many people do not know how to cope with anything not "normal".. Hence the fanaticism over global warming (or cooling depending on your viewpoint) and the ease with which so many sheep have been created on the subject.. There is very little clean, indisputable, "science" on the subject.. It is a political issue, not a scientific one at this point..

Everyone agrees that 2+2 = 4.. That water freezes at 0*C.. That lift is created by an airfoil with lower air pressure above the foil and higher pressure below.. But global climate change has no such "fact".. It is packed full of random data points that can be arranged to say whatever fits the current agenda of the person speaking..

It makes smart people behave like idiots, and idiots pretend that they are are smart.. But the science simply isn't there to declare a result or solution that 'real' science and scientists can agree on.. It's politics at this point..

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Steve : Animal Charms Animal Jewelry | Fishing Blog
I'm smelling a whole lot of if coming off of this plan.

^ Famous last words.

5pm - A humongous black cloud came over and snow poured out of the heavens, now 5" deep out there, doesn't half look very picturesque though, even the beach is fully covered in the stuff.

Plan on getting out first thing to get some photography done, we've not had snow like this here since '85.

All the palm trees, absolutely everything is just covered in snow, does look pretty spectacular if very unusual seeing it here.

Driving on the A39 earlier, not helped by freezing fog across the moors and visibility down to about 15'!

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1. So his words was Ok? Is there a hidden agenda? I note what is tolerated of people that agree with the moderators and what is tolerated of people that disagree. If it was my forum, he would have been thrown out without further argument.
2. I agree with deepsand, a valued WPW contributer:
3. There is a difference between climate and weather.
4. Global warming is related to pollution and the global climate and not the weather in England, USA or Australia in the beginning of 2009.
   
5. There has also been a flaming of the Norwegian Nobel prize committee's decision for 2007 that Albert Arnold (A) Gore Jr. and IPCC should share the Nobel prize.
6. That committee and their decision, is of course subject to and should be subjective to objective, well documented and argumented critique.
7. I leave the break room for more important tasks to do.

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Wasn't a majority of the clothing made of wool at that time?

Actually the snow in London was actually on the news and it surprised me a little bit that London hadn't seen that much snow in such a long time. I'm familiar with the Gulf Stream and the palm trees on the southern Irish coast and England so I know that particular area wouldn't get that much snow, but London is still pretty far inland. I've lived in NJ my whole life and the Jersey shore gets very little snow in comparison to inland areas and for two years I resided in Guiford, CT which is on the Long Island Sound. I lived maybe 2-3 miles from the sound and it could snow 8 inches and you could drive to the sound and there would be a trace on the ground if anything at all.

My wife has to go to Buffalo often for her work duties so I would go with her in the warm summertime and I went with her in the wintertime because I figured, 'how bad could it be?' - big mistake, big mistake....the lake effect snow may not be the worst in the world, but its bad enough that certain towns have houses where they build a door into the 2nd story because there is a decent chance the front door will get snow drifted in.

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Kgun Said

" I note what is tolerated of people that agree with the moderators and what is tolerated of people that disagree. If it was my forum, he would have been thrown out without further argument. "

Kgun, are you suggesting we throw out all post that WPW Moderators find tolerable?
or merely throw out any Post that is not objected to by any WPW moderator .

example ctabuc said
" we do not wish to see 'sniping', and that goes for all parties, ."

The post referred to is acceptable because a WPW moderator said it was not acceptable?

Had Ctabuc for instance found the post acceptable. . . it should "have been thrown out without further argument'. (Because moderators are Biased)

I need some help here, Am I reading some of these post with a clear mind. Or are my past misdeeds catching up with me. (or merely drunk)


P.S.
CW1865 said "but London is still pretty far inland"
? Is any point in England Pretty far Inland?

__________________

In Australia we have a peculiar system. Basically Australians vote for leaders that will address problems that the average Australians are concerned about. We did this. Australia Signed a couple of International agreements. It is now illegal for me to dump my old fridge at the rubbish dump. My electricity bill next year will grow by a few percent. I could point to a few dozen ways my lifestyle has changed (at some cost) over the last few years.

Are we arguing about If Global warming is real?. . It is real! It already affects the income and lifestyle of all Australians.

NOW WHAT. . send every Australian an email telling us we do not understand. Collectively we are probably not doing enough. But collectively we have been pushed to the political limit. . politicians - local representatives are evolving that speak and for public opinion. ( Many were dismissed )

Corruption. greed, Self interest . solve that problem, and no problem that faces our planet is insurmountable.
Not even global warming

Denial? . . My calculations make the true value of the US$1 at $0.28cents - I figure when an acceptance of this value is realised then it should logically follow that the cost of implementing a solution to global warming will drop dramatically. That is if we can hear the solutions above the wailing of the public that has no $income.

I do not understand this problem. I am able to do no more than observe. . It is not a good sight.

the US Public have donated their life's income to the Greed of others. It is gone. . it was a barter system that we relied on to feed ourselves. We merely watch its destruction with interest.

(Is the world really this stupid - or is it merely 'me' that 'does not understand')

__________________

I think it's important to separate the idea of climate change with pollution.

Global Warming can mean just about anything.

Are we polluting the earth and changing it? Yes.

Are the ice caps melting? Yes.

Are sea levels rising as expected? Not Exactly. ( in other words I'm still waiting on some more definitive proofs )

Is the earths gravity increasing around the equator and flattening at the poles? Yes. Why?

Why is Earth's Girth Bulging?

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James Weisbrod - programmer

Mr Gamm, please read the entire thread, you will then shortly discover that the Polar caps are no longer melting, in fact they are as cold today as they were thousands of years ago.

Does anyone have an update on the Mammoth found DNA ? Maybe a few of them wandering around would be cool.

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I think I should make a comment here.

This thread is made up of individuals, with individual thoughts. Nobody (that I know of) Has any sort of constituency.
When I read the posts in this thread I am grateful for this.

example; My posts do not represent 60,000 voters, just one . . (isn't that a relief).


We have plenty of room out here in Kajabbi for a few Mammoths.


I am now wondering? . . Is it possible in a few hundred years that a scientific survey will discover some 'material' that was laid down during this 'economic crunch' and turn to another scientist and point to a graph reading and say.
"this abnormality occurred in 2009, A huge percentage the factory production ceased during that period, fossil fuel used dropped dramatically at this time. . . . Here it is clearly recorded in the carbon imprint. Fascinating"

__________________

Tubby, I think we really are witnessing something that future generations will say 'They were there'

So, to my friends in America (I trust I still have 2 or 3 ) I have a question.

Barrack Obama seems to have a sense of reality about him. Is he the type of President that will actually divulge information on 'facts' concerning this topic and others such as Roswell ? Or will he too be forced to tow the line?

Or am I being totally niaive into thinking that there is no real factual information available on the true state of our planet?

And whether or not he will divulge information on Alien activities. After all, he must have watched Independence Day

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Tubby. This is my opinion. A newcomer with less than 30 posts starts (if it was deepsand, show me where he started) flaming a member that I personally learn much from. I think I saw most of PVC's posts. That would not be tolerated on my forum. It also seems that deepsand has left this thread, and if so, it is definitely a thread for the breakroom.

Tubby, if you reread the thread, I think you understand what I mean.
Yes and the post I refer to was posted after these words.

Yes moderators are biased, and for that reason, may be they should tolerate more of those that disagree with them The discussion, in my opinion developed to a level, that I have seen on Norwegian forums with young people. I don't participate there. I expect more from a forum for eBusiness professionals.

The subject is a serious one:

GLOBAL WARMING?? Think again!

May be too serious to be posted in WPW's breakroom.

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This has nothing to do with what you posted kgun.

I have also noted that you will give green rep to a member that is "new" because it is hard to be "new" and red rep to a "new" member simply for posting in the wrong forum.

Don't suggest that, as a moderator, I'm being hypocritical.

Dave

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David, I don't find proof for that in this thread. We are also told quite another story in our documentary Tv programs. There are conflicting opinions what is happening in Antartica. The last information I have, again from Tv documentation (of course not the best source) is that it is also melting there. The consensus, as far as I am informed, seems to be that it is melting in the North and in Himalaya.

One thing is absolutely sure. Our glaciers decrease at accelerated speed.

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No really... I follow what's happening with the climate for the most part...

Nasa's Grace satellite is built specifically to monitor gravity changes on the polar ice caps. It's melting. That's what many feel the redistribution of the gravity field bulging around the equator is... Redistribution of the water ( I don't buy it personally )

Greenland ice cap may be melting at triple speed - environment - 10 August 2006 - New Scientist

"Ice loss in Antarctica increased by 75 percent in the last 10 years due to a speed-up in the flow of its glaciers and is now nearly as great as that observed in Greenland, according to a new, comprehensive study by NASA and university scientists."

GRACE - Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment

I'm not entirely convinced global warming is a direct result of pollution but rather might have more to do with dynamic changes with the earth in general. I mean some think the magnetic field of the earth has decreased in strength by 10% in the last century and a half.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...hmagfield.html

"Earth's magnetic field is fading. Today it is about 10 percent weaker than it was when German mathematician Carl Friedrich Gauss started keeping tabs on it in 1845, scientists say. "

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James Weisbrod - programmer

Yes, if I think, the new member uses a cultivated language and are penalized by other members for their facts and meaningful input that I personally disagree with. I gave him a red rep point with the remark, that somebody has to stop.

The words that he used are not meaningful input.

Back to topic?

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My bolding. I fully agree with that. Human activity will disappear like a snowball on a glacier if nature decide to take a new direction. That is why these are my favorite quotes in this thread.

There are few that deny God's existence on a sinking ship. I think there would be few denying God's existence if a large enough comet were headed at our planet. This was not a proof of God's existence

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No kgun... you gave a brand new member red rep because of "wrong board" and nothing more. You, who are so obsessed with getting red rep give it to a brand new member for the "crime" of posting on the wrong board. The person "penalizing" is you.

Then you accuse me, in general, as a moderator of being hypocritical. Please take note that not once in this thread have I "moderated" anyone.

You want to get "back to topic"? Fine. I asked you your point for posting another members join date.

Again, what's your point?

Dave

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The rather off topic posts seem to have left my questions unanswered - and regards the polar ice caps, this is where we came in

It's time to pray for global warming, says Flint Journal columnist John Tomlinson - Flint, Michigan Columns, Letters & Opinion - The Flint Journal – MLive.com

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We talk about two different episodes.

I think you refer to this

Hi There, 02-01-2009, 11:04 AM

post.

I was not sure, but my thought:

1. A new forum spammer.
2. A member that want to drown an important thread, this (wait until it redirects to the correct post #12)

phpBB and security

post

02-01-2009, 07:49 PM

Roxthentons One post, what does that indicate to you Dave?

If you mean another post, please show it to me.

Conclusion: I shall be more careful with red rep points or your opinion is ... ???

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Dave, ever heard about hints?

Do I need to fill WPW's server with this:

nonsense to explain?

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My patience is sorely being used up. The Topic is

GLOBAL WARMING

NOT

WARMING FACTIONS WITHIN WPW

Now, with humour or humor or whatever, may we please return to the subject matter. Thank you

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Ok David:

"At December's U.N. Global Warming conference in Poznan, Poland, 650 of the world's top climatologists stood up and said man-made global warming is a media generated myth without basis. Said climatologist Dr. David Gee, Chairman of the International Geological Congress, "For how many years must the planet cool before we begin to understand that the planet is not warming?" I asked myself, why would such obviously smart guy say such a ridiculous thing? But it turns out he's right.

The earth's temperature peaked in 1998. It's been falling ever since; it dropped dramatically in 2007 and got worse in 2008, when temperatures touched 1980 levels".

Scientific disagreement is nothing new. It is simply the nature of science.

Meanwhile, the University of Illinois' Arctic Climate Research Center released conclusive satellite photos showing that Arctic ice is back to 1979 levels. What's more, measurements of Antarctic ice now show that its accumulation is up 5 percent since 1980.

Perma ice or snow?

In other words, during what was supposed to be massive global warming, the biggest chunks of ice on earth grew larger. Just as an aside, do you remember when the hole in the ozone layer was going to melt Antarctica? But don't worry, we're safe now, that was the nineties.

Same question as above?

Dr. Kunihiko, Chancellor of Japan's Institute of Science and Technology said this: "CO2 emissions make absolutely no difference one way or the other ... every scientist knows this, but it doesn't pay to say so." Now why would a learned man say such a crazy thing?

This is where the looney left gets lost. Their mantra is atmospheric CO2 levels are escalating and this is unquestionably causing earth's temperature rise. But ask yourself -- if global temperatures are experiencing the biggest sustained drop in decades, while CO2 levels continue to rise -- how can it be true?

Whether CO2 or something else pollutes the atmosphere is indifferent to me personally. Personally, I support the development of green (hopefully sustainable) technologies.

Ironically, in spite of being shown false, we must now pray for it. Because a massive study, just released by the Russian Government, contains overwhelming evidence that earth is on the verge of another Ice Age.

Based on core samples from Russia's Vostok Station in Antarctica, we now know earth's atmosphere and temperature for the last 420,000 years. This evidence suggests that the 12,000 years of warmth we call the Holocene period is over.

I know these studies. They are also reported in one of the books I had on fractal, chaotic and non linear mathematics.

See Anastasios A Tsonos (1992): "Chaos. From theory to applications" page 225 and 266

Apparently, we're headed into an ice age of about 100,000 years -- give or take. As for CO2 levels, core samples show conclusively they follow the earth's temperature rise, not lead it.

It turns out CO2 fluctuations follow the change in sea temperature. As water temperatures rise, oceans release additional dissolved CO2 -- like opening a warm brewsky.

To think, early last year, liberals suggested we spend 45 trillion dollars and give up five million jobs to fix global warming. But there is good news: now that we don't have to spend any of that money, we can give it all to the banks.

Political or scientific article? May be deepsand could have given a better answer?

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Political - let's move on

So, to my friends in America (I trust I still have 2 or 3 ) I have a question.

Barrack Obama seems to have a sense of reality about him. Is he the type of President that will actually divulge information on 'facts' concerning this topic and others such as Roswell ? Or will he too be forced to tow the line?

Or am I being totally niaive into thinking that there is no real factual information available on the true state of our planet?

And whether or not he will divulge information on Alien activities. After all, he must have watched Independence Day

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Well, as so far as President Obama is concerned, I think that has yet to be seen.

There's plenty of "factual" information and data available. There's plenty of different interpretations of that data which is what makes the subject so volatile.

Dave

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David, I am more afraid of the UK's most dangerous man.

When I look out of my window, I get the impression that our glaciers are expanding and that I sit on one of them

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Thanks CD - the point I am trying to make is that - for the first time in my memory you have a Politician President who would eat any UK politician for breakfast. He strikes me as the kind of guy who would walk into the Military and say 'Hey guys, I've seen Independence Day, were there aliens and do we have their spacecraft YES or NO?

And if the answer was 'Yes Mr President we do' Would he tell us?

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Don't tell this to Cnn, Norwegian and Swedish Tv.

I recorded his inauguration and speech with my Sony Digital camera with a capacity of 18 hour's continuous recording.

I need facts if he should be a candidate for the Nobel Prize in ...

David, don't underestimate your own politicians.

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I personally dismiss stories about aliens. . I just do not have it in me to take the proposition seriously. I do have an interest in what others see or believe.

I think The New US president has a task ahead of him that already surpasses my definition of 'impossible'. His team has already failed him. . From where I sit his first task it to remove 'personal gain' from the personalities in his team. The Package that they put together for approval is a pathetic demonstration of totally not understanding what a multi billion dollar bailout package is supposed to achieve. Obama, needs to roll some heads in his own team to gain my continued respect. 'pork' in a bill this important will not be tolerated by anyone who thinks Obama can scramble the USA out of of the hole it is in.

Global warming considerations? . . I think it takes a back seat until the USA gets to grips with reality..


kgun,
your post that begins "Tubby. This is my opinion. A newcomer with less than 30 posts starts" I might mention, I deliberately stopped reading that particular post at that point. ( I do have a self delete facility) I do prefer to read and observe what is written and evolve my own opinions. I always presumed the moderators leave some posts intact so that WPW members are able to absorb what they may about 'newcomers' and old-comers. . You really should give others reading the thread the chance to create our own thoughts. You should certainly not keep attempting to over-ride our opinions on Off topic or personality matters.

crankydave
I never realized our deliverance of rep points was monitored so closely.

I never minded rimming around the far edges of a topic, Some topics have more clarity when viewed from an oblique angle. . My little brain is nowhere big enough to encompass a topic this huge. I do know I love this world, I do know I would make a good deal of effort to keep it as it is in my reality. I do understand that part of this worlds reality is human emotion, human needs, human selfishness and all of our human weaknesses etc.

Getting an honest glimpse at global warming is not easy.

__________________

It's not. When I see a brand new member with 1 post on the "Introduction" board, or something similar, and has what might be considered an "unusual" rep, I will check to see if there might be a technical problem.

Dave

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Hmmm.

"The recent reports of large icebergs calving into the ocean in Antarctica can't explain this because they are already floating in the ocean," said Cox in a statement. As well, satellite observations of average sea level rise show no corresponding change in the rate of global sea level increase."

Ignores the breakaway of ice shelves, which were not already floating, both in the Arctic and Antarctic,, and the fact that the density of ice is less than that of liquid water, neither of which are trivial factors.

"It used to be that these things (leap seconds) were inserted into our time system once or twice a year. For the last several years we have not had to do that," said Cox."

2005-12-31 23:59:60 Leap second added.
2008-12-31 23:59:60 Leap second added.


Article dated 2002-08-07; no longer timely in any respect.

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Then why all the discussion about the Northwest Passage?

"On September 14, 2007, the European Space Agency stated that, based on satellite images, ice loss had opened up the passage "for the first time since records began in 1978". According to the Arctic Climate Impact Assessment, the latter part of the 20th century and the start of the 21st had seen marked shrinkage of ice cover. The extreme loss in 2007 rendered the passage "fully navigable".[47][48] However, the ESA study was based only on analysis of satellite images and could in practice not confirm anything about the actual navigation of the waters of the passage. The ESA suggested the passage would be navigable "during reduced ice cover by multi-year ice pack" (namely sea ice surviving one or more summers) where previously any traverse of the route had to be undertaken during favourable seasonable climatic conditions or by specialist vessels or expeditions. The agency's report speculated that the conditions prevalent in 2007 had shown the passage may "open" sooner than expected.[49] An expedition in May 2008 reported that the passage was not yet continuously navigable even by an icebreaker and not yet ice-free.[50]
Scientists at a meeting of the American Geophysical Union on December 13, 2007, revealed that NASA satellites observing the western Arctic.[clarification needed] showed a 16% decrease in cloud coverage during the summer of 2007 compared to 2006. This would have the effect of allowing more sunlight to penetrate Earth's atmosphere and warm the Arctic Ocean waters, thus melting sea ice and contributing to the opening the Northwest Passage."

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crankydave said "I will check to see if there might be a technical problem."

Thanks Dave, That makes sense, far less evil at second sight.

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London is not very far in land. It's just up from the Thames Estuary. Well, really, Britain is so small nowhere is very far inland!

The South East (including London) generally gets very good weather, much warmer than Northern England or Scotland, for example.

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I found this which is quite interesting

David Bellamy refutes global warming

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David Bellamy is a botanist, not a physicist. From wikipedia, we read

"In his foreword to the 1989 book The Greenhouse Effect[3] Bellamy wrote:
"The profligate demands of humankind are causing far reaching changes to the atmosphere of planet Earth, of this there is no doubt. Earth's temperature is showing an upward swing, the so-called greenhouse effect, now a subject of international concern. The greenhouse effect may melt the glaciers and ice caps of the world causing the sea to rise and flood many of our great cities and much of our best farmland.""

Though he latter changed his mind, calling the notion of AGW to be "poppycock," he has never directly addressed the underlying and indisputable facts re. spectral absorption and the resultant radiative forcing.

So, to be correct, it can be said that he has only claimed to refute global warming, in the sense that he has denied the truth or accuracy of such, not that he has actually proven it to be false by way of evidence.

In part, he has merely parroted claims made by Fred Singer, another less than credible source. And, he has repeatedly hedged and/or reversed his statements, some of which were blatantly false.

See David Bellamy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .

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Berserk recently sailed through the Northwest Passage (NrK is our state Tv).

Nobody have sailed so far north.

Berserk's route through the Northwest Passage goes further north than that Roald Amundsen followed in 1903.

In English: The cold passage.

KW search:

berserk through the Northwest Passage

NO search + translate this page:

berserk gjennom Nordvestpassasjen

That can be a point of no return. The ice reflects sunlight. The ocean asorbs it.

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I agree with a lot of his skepticism... but I would cautious of anyone who speaks on behalf of every scientist and then claims they are simply not getting paid enough to speak the truth.

"CO2 emissions make absolutely no difference one way or the other ... every scientist knows this, but it doesn't pay to say so."

In the end... I think the effort to become more environmentally friendly has paid off. Now if only China would listen up.

Chinese Air Pollution Deadliest in World, Report Says

This map of pollution emissions is amazing...

Slicing the polar pie : Canadian Geographic Magazine À la Carte - April 2008

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James Weisbrod - programmer

Precisely and just to elaborate on that point there is apparently substantial amounts of CO2 and methane in arctic lakes and permafrost which will be released if unfrozen.

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I saw an interesting series of 'on the street' interviews during the Olympics with Chinese people on the street about pollution..

Ever other person said a variation of - the rest of the world got to pollute for over a hundred years before cleaning up, it's our turn..

I thought it was interesting if nothing else..

Also saw a very cool segment on BBC America last night where they were discussing the new proposed emissions changes for cars in California.. It basically came down to, there is "no" car on the market today, not even the Prius Hybrid, that meets those standards and to get there the average price of "every" car made for California would need to rise approximately $12,000.. All for a negligible benefit.. I believe the stat was the 7 tons of CO2 would be removed from the air (didn't say over what time span - assuming annually).. Sounds like a great thing, except that there are currently 2300(ish) tons of CO2 being released.. So we are looking at a .3% improvement in air quality when it comes to CO2..

Remember what I said about economic ruin??

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