I watch a program about how energy from water is used to produce hydrogen that fuels a bus on Iceland.

It is the first bus in the world that is driven by hydrogen produced by waterfalls. The waste from the bus is water.

In the future a supertanker may cross the Atlantic driven on 1 litre water.

It is estimated that Iceland will produce 3 million times their own need for energy.

In the future a whole world may be driven on water and not a single island.

Did you know that people on Iceland are "Western Norwegians" (their language is closest to original Norwegian) and when Nato left the country some months ago, Russia has promised to defend the country (again according to a Tv program).

P.S. We speak provincial Danish

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Is this really news?

Ford Motor Company launched their hydrogen powered shuttle bus in March of 2005 and have been testing them all over the world ever since.

Hydrogen Fuel Technology and Research - Ford

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I know, the nano point is that hydrogen is produced by renewable energy, waterfalls that there are very much of on Iceland. I did not tell that there is already a station where Hydrogen are filled to supply the bus. May be more has happended since the Tv program was made.

And Sweden is in the front on producing environmental friendly diesel from wood.

Windmills:
Thare are some of them in Norway, along the coast, but they are very bad for the environment, since a lot of rare havørn's that are threatened by extinction are killed by the blades of the mills. So windmills, in their current form, are not the solution in that part of Norway.

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For the benefit of any English-speakers with the crazy idea that they should be able to understand what's written in an English-language forum, a havørn is the Norwegian (and Danish) name for a white-tailed eagle, but, to be on the safe side, you'd better start learning Norwegian (otherwise he may feel the need to look words up, and that wouldn't be fair, would it) ?

If kgun translated everything he typed, how the heck would we ever learn any Danish, Dutch, Norwegian or Swedish??

Reading his posts are challenging, informative and educational, not unlike the crossword in the Sunday paper.

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How many is a lot ? The blades on Norwegian windmills must spin like fans, if they're too fast for a lot of eagles to miss.

They spin with a natural speed of 250 Km/hour.

On average one per month, but that average will decline as more and more are killed.

The wind mills were set up in an area with the worlds most dense population of "havørns". Now it is not.

You used the world "criminal" about Norwegian gas production.

IMO, this is criminal and not "criminal". It is illegal / criminal to take eggs from these eagle's nest, but not to kill adult eagles, as long as it is done by the government's / blessing (as part of their research). A high density of nests are (was) situated in the same are. Female eagles directly killed. How many are indirectly killed? The left parties are among the worst (to your information, I vote social democratic), since they only see KW hours from green energy, but living animals are not part of that green energy.

Note: I once thought of studying ornithology, so this really hurts my heart. I do not know whether it is a problem in Denmark where about 20 % of the energy supply come from Wind mills. Probably not, since that area is not the natural area for these beautiful birds. What about another exciting bird, the stork (isn't it Denmark's national bird like our fossekall??) Are they killed by windmills? You may know, I do not. The stork is nearly extincted in Denmark as far as I know.

May be they kill some seaguls, but there is no lack of seaguls in Norway and I think not in Denmark either. Seaguls, rats, foxes and sparrows increase proportionally with human activity. Other animal populations like eagles, decrease proportionally with human activity.

Other animals have to suffer to satisfy the greed of homo sapiens.

You asked how deep Norway can drill in another thread? I can pose a related question, does homo sapiens have the sole right to this beautiful planet?

Research on ocean wave energy, that may be better for the environments in that part with strong wind and high waves are given up in Norway and sold to a large Scottish company.

The worst of all: The government was warned by ornithologists.

<off topic>
P.S. You know my children are half Danish and I love Denmark, even if every Danish woman / man see right through me, like we do through you. Norwegians are bragging because they need it, 400 years in a Union with Denmark, that fooled us by selling bacon to UK and then they sold us to the Swedes as part of a peace agreement. Hundred years in a union with Sweden, and now EU want us as member in a new union.

Can you think of a more beautiful picture than a small Danish farm with animals, storks and a stork nest on the roof?

Yes, if you visit me, I will be in the mountains, and if I visit you, you will probably sit on your farm drinking bayer. Bragging again. It is according to our former Prime Minister Gro Harlem Brundtland typical Norwegian to be good (god). I will change that to selfgood (selvgod). Again bragging

But Greenland, the only country that has left EU as far as I know, where the Eskimos talk Danish, have with increased Global warming and ice melting much larger potential then Iceland. Greenland, with kms, thick glaciers, have 10 % of the worlds store of fresh water.

When will we start populating space and export water to the moon and mars, as part of human settlement there? If we continue to destroy our planet and estinct other species, it may in a distant future be better to live there than on the earth. But in 4 000 000 000 years the moon and the earth will disappear in an expanding sun, before it becomes a super nova and ends as a white dwarf or a black whole. According to Stephen Hawking white dwarfs are not so white and black wholes not so black. Then, if there is still human beings, that I doubt, they may have left our galaxy. There are billions of them, perhaps better than our own with enough energy and space.

There is no lack of energy, there is no lack of space. There is lack of technology to produce real green energy and enough food to supply all of us. The best soultion to over population is to educate people, that is learn them fishing in stead of giving them fish.

The real challenge is technology. I am a technology optimist, but a socio political pessimist because of human nature. But humans have like seaguls, rats, sparrows, foxes etc. a remarkable ability to adapt, so may be a socio political realist is a better word.
</off topic>

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Look, we on land that grows crops, we have a technology called 'scarecrows' that keeps the birds back from the area. We will sell it to you for your technology. We still use backwards technology here, like making pollution as fast as we can by driving pick-up trucks and SUVes to drive one block to the store to get milk, or just because you have a small pecker and need to be mans! The rule is this: only one driver and no passengers per vehicle!

I drove in a Hybrid the other day, it's momentum was used to charge the batteries, and it was quit nice, actually.
Yeah, and we will have to be launching shuttles every few seconds to carry people off earth. We have a pop. of 7 billion soon. The average crude birth rate for the entire world is 20.3 births per 1,000 population for 2005 - 2010. 7 billion divided by 1000 = 7 million x 20 = 140 million divided by 5 28 million per year or 76,700 per day.

How many ships will this take to just keep population here from overwhelming our planet? There 86,400 seconds in a day, so we need to launch a ship carrying 60 people every one minute.
You live nice place, I will try to visit one day, then we brag and drink. I would like that, we could talk many hours. How long has greenland ice, though? 2050, all gone.

This has to be the easiest place on the board to moderate. It's like visiting a funny farm - If 'One flew over the cuckoos nest' was made into a soap.

This would be it

So why, earthlings - if Diesel can be produced (In the UK it's from rape seed) so cheaply why do we pay more tax on it than petrol??

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Denmark gave Greenland a lot of stuff it never had before. Not just pollution. There was also venereal disease, alcoholism, domestic violence, unemployment, cultural repression, forced evacuation of large stretches of land (so that the Americans could build their nuclear devices).........the list goes on and on.

No problem when hydrogen fuel technology is good enough. As I told, I am a technology optimist. One of the biggest errors we do are static or linear thinking. Super oil tankes of one million ton were designed but not fulfilled before the first oil crisis. Why not space ships of 100 million tons, at least sent from the moon? The moon will be the best place to start to conquer mars, since gravitation is much lesser on the moon. The moon will then be a big intemediary platform from where the rest of our solar system is conquerd. Raw material to conquer the space, there is enough on other planets in our solar system. Space ships and robots, that can stand extreme cold and extreme heat, can land there and take the minerals that is needed. Read above, today scientists, seriously talk about a super tanker in a near future driven by one liter water that crosses the Atlantic ocean. How many of Jules Verne's ideas and fantasies are a reality today? Imagiantion and fanasy today, may be a reality in 100 years or less, if evoulution and nature is non-linear as it often is. A space ship driven on 100 liter transformed water carrying 1 000 000 ton water, will that be possible in 100 years or less?
I think that is too fast. And note that some scientists say that this a warming before the next ice age. That is scientists stydying nonlinear mathematics, fractals and chaos. They study gobal climate by drilling 100's and 1000's of meters through the glaciers where very long trends can be studied and extrapolated. One of the most sure thing about future climate is that it is unsure, so why not already start having other options than Tellus? Humans can not fight mother nature, but we can adapt.
No problem, may be we can arrange a WPW seminar on XML and Object oriented programming in Norway. You know, I am a super pensionist with access to the Central Bank Of Norway's cabin with 30 rooms and full pension (three excellent meals) NOK 410 (420 weekends) / 24 hours (I think, but is not sure that foreigners are subcidized so the price is about 300 for them). There are seminar rooms there and access to the internet. If we order about half a year in advance, we may get the whole cabin for about a week.

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You hint at the movie Cuckoo's Nest?

This is not that yet. This is the bird Phoenix's nest.

David, do you know the difference between a professor and an ordinary man like you and me? They can tell what they think and be taken seriously

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And you learned us to speak Danish? Now, we invite you to start an ordinary farm on the moon or on mars. We start sea farming in the water that is carried with us. Life there will get a flying start, and in 2000 years (or less if the non-linearity is strong enough), enough oxygen and water has been produced, so we do not need to live under huge glass dome's.

Put on your moon and / or mars glasses and start conquering space or at least think of it or work with your imagionation. Look out instead of through me

My ex Danish wife, does at least wish a star telescope for Christmas, and that is no joke, since my youngest daughter asked if she could buy one for her on eBay.

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I'll sign up to the University of American Professors and buy a degree.

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Because it takes very long to adjust bureaucrats brains and much longer to adjust and adapt bureaucracies. That may even be a danger in some cases.

Of course, it should have been less tax if it is better for the environments.

Do you know, in Denmark, there once was a man that tried to be elected to the Parliament (and I think he was - thehappysmoker may know more) under the motto:

"Against headwind on the cycle tracks."

Much more is possible than you can imagine if your will is strong enough.

It should be much more easy to be elected on the motto.

"Heavy tax on pollution and subsidies on real green energy."

This thread is too important for WPW's break room. It should have been published on Cnn or at least presented on Jon Stewarts daily show.

Now I have to start building my new old computer, that is reformatting hard drives and reorganize information.

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Yes, that's true. A little like Screaming Lord Sutch, in England, Jakob Haugaard (an entertainer/comedian) was pissed off about Danish politicians making stupid promises to get themselves elected, so he promised that there would always be a wind behind you on the cycle path. It back-fired on him, because there were so many people protesting about Danish politics that he was voted in. He found it all too embarrassing, and spent his term trying to keep out of the way. A pity, but understandable, I suppose.

Look at SkyTran

• Zero Carbon
• Zero Congestion.
• Zero Wait

Also, the second CO2 problem is very important. That is the effect of increased CO2 on the ocean, acid water that implies reduced presence of corals and animals low in the food chain that is dependent of calcium. Effects are already observed and registered here.

So if you are for a varied life in the sea, you have a second argument to argument for reduced CO2 pollution.

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No it isn't, this was predicted using hard science in 1890, and has been a concern since I started reading scientific American in the mid '70es and is based on observation, en viero(?) data, hard facts. A theory that makes predictions is great credibility when these predictions are born out.
It has absolutely nothing to do with 'chaos' or 'fractals' whatsoever. I am knowledgeable in these areas, and fractals are a mathematical infinite series, and chaos is understanding 'strange attractors' and is used for understanding short term weather that is unpredictable. It has absolutely nothing to do with predicatability of enviornment degradation.



How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic


Below is a complete listing of the articles in "How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic," a series by Coby Beck containing responses to the most common skeptical arguments on global warming. There are four separate taxonomies; arguments are divided by:

Stages of Denial,
Scientific Topics,
Types of Argument, and
Levels of Sophistication.

I said that the only certain thing about climate is uncertainty. I wrote a master thesis on nonlinear, fractal and chaotic structure, 295 pages in Norwegian. Many researchers were plainly wrong. One message is global determinism and local randomness. A chaotic system always lives on a strange attractor, but a strange attractor does not imply a chaotic system.

In addition I have a degree on the master level in "Shock Waves and Raction-Diffusion Equations" (see book on 550 pages by Joel Smoller with the same name) with top rating 1.3 (examined by two Norwegian professors). Bragging again

Read above, I am absolutely for every measure to reduce CO2.

You find my name if you scroll down.

Shock Waves and Reaction-Diffusion Equations = You can derive a not too wildly discontinous function (by introducing the concept of weak derivative) = In short this subject is about irreversible phenomena. It is not possible to recreate the Siberian Tiger if it is extincted.

I have seen Nobel price winner Al Gore's movie. If there is a positive probability that what he describes there will happen if we do not take the necessary measures, we must surely take his message seriously and I definitely do.

I am always for cleaner technology. Norwegian Statoil extracting oil from sand in Canada is definitely not environmentally friendly.

And if the facts don't fit the theory, change the facts

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You are a math's guy!!!! You know about rigorousness and scientific method!
I knew you were are very good guy, and I am lucky to know you.

Yes, I will look at these things, I think you might be talking fluid mechanics, no, reaction diffusion implies compression and higher rates of molecules at higher engery due to shock wave. I will read it.

We are going through the greatest extinction in history of life. Siberian Tigers, and much more ominously, lizards and reptiles, and even lower on the food chain, this is our, OUR, foundation for life. There are great areas of the ocean that show little life now. When I have more time, I will get these links.

I thank you for yours. Bragging is not bragging if it is a mere fact about yourself. Smart people appear arrogant and cryptic, but that's the way it is. When you something, and presenting this fact is nothing but reality, it is not bragging.

I was only Chem major in university (hounors) with physics minor, but I did only two years. High energy physics is my passion, and molecular and QM chem. Philoshophy as well, theories of knowledge etc, Bertrand russel I read a lot.

Thanks, kgun, I know you will always understand my words, and I will strive to comprehend yours. Result=spreading knowledge and learning!

Last week I was on a holiday to my hometome and was surprised to be informed about the Utsira wind power and hydrogen plant. Surplus energy is used to produce hydrogen from water.

Today I also watched a program on Cnn that solar energy from the solar belt (among them deserts) combined with technology from the technology belt will broduce green energy for the future. Here again surplus energy can be used to make hydrogen from water. Spain is in the front here and today, on Norwergian Tv, it was reported that a solar cell project would produce enough energy to supply 9000 houses with energy.

So I stand by my premise: Technology is not the problem. We have to revolutionate the way we think. If you understand fractals that I have explained in another thread, "solar trees" will be used to light trees. Suplus energy from the "solar trees" can produce energy at day that produce hydrogen that is used to light the streets in the night.

If you understand fractals that can be used model "natural fractals" (Google it) you will understand that fractal forms are driven by the most efficient forms. A river takes the easiest and thust most efficient way. So efficiency will drive ideas, design, technology, green energy etc etc.

Nano technology, interaction between nano technology and light is promising. Nano health is one are. Nano tools can target cancer cells and destroy them. So green energy and nano technology is the power of the future.

Thorium (named after the Nordic god Thor) is another nuclear material that there are very much of in Norway. It is claimed that thorium is clean, there is much in nature and the vaste can not be used to produce nuclear weapons.

New Zealand and Iceland should have enough geo thermal energy to produce hydrogen from water.

Biomembran, still not an English word. That is about farming in dry areas. It is a Norwegian invention that may be used to reduce the greenhouse effect.

Related links:
Thorium - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Digital eBook : IUCN Academy of Environmental Law Research Studies: Volume 1, The Law of Energy for Sustainable Development

SUSTAINABLE DEVELOPMENT PREPARATORY MEETING BEGINS CONSIDERATION OF POLICY OPTIONS FOR ENERGY, INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT, AIR POLLUTION, CLIMATE CHANGE

http://law.bepress.com/cgi/viewconte...ntext=expresso

P.S. I am no believer in Thor.

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Neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeooooooooooowwwwwww wwww...THUDDDD!...Hell I wish I could stop landing like that;

Right!
Ha! HA!....No one expects the Spanish Inquisition !...-O)

Salut Mik mik, Dave..Ca va


Buenos dais Senor Kgun...How are you doing?


QUOTE:-"I am absolutely for every measure to reduce CO2."

WITHOUT PREDUDICE.

With the greatest respect sir, it is the contention of the tribunal of the Inquisition In Santiago de Compostela that you are suffering from a pandemic malady sir...


"Carbon madness" also known as the CO2 syndrome...A type of dementia that is currentlly sweeping the planet... 2 of the symtons are;

A total intellectual incapacity to analyst or examine evidence;
A belief in a mass collective hallucination called the IPCC.


.I could go on...However...With respect simply put every thing you know about CO2 and global warming/climate change is wrong....Below is the real state of affairs....

************************************************** ************************************************
Conclusions from Earthwatch...Edition 7

So far by dead reckoning we "Know for fact/truth" thats near enough;

* 1...On a global scale...The temperature has risen/ is rising...Confirmed...Valid by The UN World Meteorological Organization. (see article RHS1 Earthwatch 7 )

* 2...On a global scale...Climate patterns are changing...Confirmed...Valid by The UN World Meteorological Organization. (see article RHS1 Earthwatch 7 )

* 3...We cannot be 100% certain of the validity of information, received, regarding 1&2 in this list...

Various errors and data conflicts are present in the body of scientific data collected and conclusion have been arrived at that ignore certain crucial data... click here to learn about errors

* 4...CO2 as the prime cause of global warming has not yet been validated its still a theory.

In a 1996 report by the UN on global warming, two statements were deleted from the final draft. Here they are:

1) None of the studies cited above has shown clear evidence that we can attribute the observed climate changes to increases in greenhouse gases.

2) No study to date has positively attributed all or part of the climate change to man made causes. To the present day there is still no scientific proof that man-made CO2 causes significant global warming.

See "Carbon dioxide rebellion" edition 6 of RHS1 Earthwatch... Click here to view.

* 5...The Sun has changed its behaviour become more active. Confirmed...Valid by -Max Plank institute Germany et al.

* 6...The Heliosphere of the Sun and the planets it contains has changed status become more active. Confirmed...Valid by -NASA, ESA, et al.

* 7...There is an increase of cosmic dust within our solar system "More solid material available". Confirmed...Valid by -NASA; Odyssey mission.
************************************************** ************************************************** *
"Current Planet/Physical alterations of the Earth are becoming irreversible. Strong evidence exists that these transformations are being caused by highly charged material and energetic non-uniformities in anisotropic interstellar space which have broken into the interplanetary area of our Solar System.

This "donation" of energy is producing hybrid processes and excited energy states in all planets, as well as the Sun. Effects here on Earth are to be found in the acceleration of the magnetic pole shift, in the vertical and horizontal ozone content distribution, and in the increased frequency and magnitude of significant catastrophic climatic events.

There is growing probability that we are moving into a rapid temperature instability period similar to the one that took place 10,000 years ago. The adaptive responses of the biosphere, and humanity, to these new conditions may lead to a total global revision of the range of species and life on Earth.

It is only through a deep understanding of the fundamental changes taking place in the natural environment surrounding us that politicians, and citizens a like, will be able to achieve balance with the renewing flow of Planet/Physical states and processes."


From the paper PLANET/PHYSICAL STATE OF THE EARTH AND LIFE By DR. ALEXEY N. DMITRIEV*
Published in Russian, IICA Transactions, Volume 4, 1997 *Professor of Geology and Mineralogy, and Chief Scientific Member, United Institute of Geology, Geophysics, and Mineralogy, Siberian Department of Russian Academy of Sciences.

Click here to Read this Paper
************************************************** ************************************************** *****
"It is only through a deep understanding " QUOTED from above..

Not a knee jerk reaction, that kills thousands of birds ( On this point we concur it is morally,
unacceptable to erect these killing machine thus effectively declaring war on other life species)

Destroys more of our environment, leaving the world short of food for the provision of ethanol

All in the Name of the war on CO2...Which is "a convenient lie"

Now before/if you respond SVP...Read the latest edition of Earthwatch in my sig file...


Now as you know rien about CO2 or the real story in Ducktown...I would like to now
make amends for confronting your ignorance and respectfully bow to your Intelligence
in your own field of mathematics of which I am convinced you have a formidable knowledge

Kgun are you familiar with the maths of Terence Mckenna...Particularly his "Time zero calculations...Which as far as my limited mathematical understanding comprehends is a
form on infinite calculus based on the acceleration of change..Thus arriving at Time zero...

Your qualified opinion on this subject would be greatly appreciated I do not think that there is a more chaotic nor variable mathematical model than "change"


Hootenanny talks with TERENCE MCKENNA | Hootenanny Magazine

An interview.

Novelty theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wiki info


Mik mik...Below QUOTED from grist for mill website...Your link.

"No one in the climate science community is debating whether or not changes in atmospheric CO2 concentrations alter the greenhouse effect, or if the current warming trend is outside of the range of natural variability, or if sea levels have risen over the last century.

This is where there is a consensus."

Comment on this quote...

The only consensus from this collection of riff raff...Is opening a debate on CO2 as the prime mover in global warming/climate change is...IMHO "Pissing on the campfire" and professional suicide.

In the next edition of Earthwatch we will be taking a "forensic" look at this mob....

I read a quote some were that if Alfred Nobel knew that Al Gore and the IPCC had won his peace prize he would turn in his grave...Well informed sources on the astral plane say he is now known as... "Revolving Nobel".-O)

All the best...Indy

Buenos dias Senor Indiana, I am in good mood.

And the best way to reduce CO2 is to grow 5 trees in Amazons for every tree you cut. But that seems like a difficult and insurmountable task for a primate like Homo Sapiens. I think the birds are better, but trees grown by Homo Sapiens binds about 10 times more CO2 than trees grown by the rest of nature.

Fantastic post.

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The carbon offset scenario...Viz a viz Trees is calculated at minimum 100 years.... to absorb todays CO2
It rubbish ...Kgun...Honest...CO2 is not the cause or problem....Respects Indy

1. Is that correct? Note that I said that you have to grow the trees in the rain forest e.g. of the Amazon rain forest where trees grows extremely fast. Look at the "Measured rates of deforestation in the Amazon" in that Wikipedia article.
2. If it is correct, then grow 100 trees for every one you cut. Let school children get some days free to grow the trees. They will love the job. We did it here when I was 13 and 14 years old.

What about algae? Algae is now beeing grown in Norwegian fjords. Food, biomass and biofuel will be produced from micro alga farms in about 5 years. And algae, absorb Co2, too. Food will be produced to feed salmon on sea farms.

Interesting topic.

By the way, are you from France or a Sheriff from Texas?

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Mon ami...Kgun,
The Malady you are suffering from is carbon madness...Wake up!

It is totally immaterial that algae, absorbs Co2....Will you stop it-O)
I repeat the planet Earth has NO problem with CO2...However as per
your observation it has a problem with Homo Sapia ...Which insists
it can"win" contra the universe and and applied science...LOL ...Indy

PS my image is for PR purposes ATMIT ( At this moment in time)

Agree that we can not win against nature. I have been cross country skiing in Norwegian mountains sleeping in tent in the snow, so I know what it means to calm down, eat and let nature rule. Our hope is that we can adapt and the sooner we start, the better.

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To be close to nature as you describe...Is to understand who and what we are.

I perceive a dimension in your persona that is both noble and small such is the lesson of man dependant upon his karma for nature has neither thought nor care for man..HTH-O)...Indy

Terrance Mckenna ?

Viz a viz....Your edit Certainly let children plant trees...Let them draw them selves as close to nature as possible...Such action is without blame...and a contribution to the life force...they make a pro life gesture that is what is important not the tree its self...Nature is as aloof from trees as it is with man ...Respects....Indy

It's getting to sound like H.C.Andersen.

Are you claiming that nature is a separate entity which trees and man are not part of ?

Does it make decisions (such as the decision to hold itself aloof) ?

I hold myself aloof from my right foot. Does that make any sense to you ? (At least I would be capable of holding myself aloof if I chose to). Nature lacks the ability, because it doesn't really exist on its own. It is a collective name, for everything (including those nasty chemicals, and plastic. Where do you think they come from ? Magic ?)

A fairy just flew past my window. I swear it held me aloof.

Salut Happy smoker...How you doing....I will be replying to your post...No problemo


ATM...Busy as an octopus juggling soot -O)...Indy

This thread is on hold waiting for my reply to Happy...


So stay tuned...Folks

Like Armageddon...Its coming-O)...Indy

Still waiting.

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I'm just curious, what happens to all that oxygen. Why do I here no mention of it?

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Busier than a one legged cat trying to bury a poop on a frozen pond.

Canadian Group Produces Hydrogen from Water Using Solar Energy

Man, I can't find much on this. I guess O2 is captured with +2metals like Iron or whatever. O2 will also bubble up from the anode.

H2 fuel cells are just another type of battery. It takes energy to crack water, then store in a fuel cell.

I doubt that it will become viable. H+ must be kept under immense pressure, and it evaporates through anything (it is the smallest molecule that can be, one proton) so that your 'tank' will empty spontaneously over several days or weeks even if you don't drive.

Next is the delivery system. There are millions of gas stations to supply petrol, which must be replaced.

Hybrids are what is happening. I rode in one, a Toyota Camry I believe. It charges a battery when slowing down, and it idles at almost zero, and the electric motors are used to accelerate moderately, and gas kicks in if more power is needed.
This car was just as peppy as any mid size, in fact I was completely amazed when the driver told me what was going on and then put it through the paces.

You don't need membranes, high temps(450 - 500C), high tech and problematic storage and delivery systems.
Technology Review: Cheap Hydrogen Fuel

I used to think bio-fuel and H were the cat's meow. They are far from a panacea. We are not very close to reducing greenhouse emissions using either one.

RealClimate » Global warming on Mars?
I refere you to figure 3:
welcome to pmodwrc
Haha = "The long-term increase in solar irradiance is heating both Earth and Mars,"
Habibullo Abdussamatov, head of space research at St. Petersburg's Pulkovo Astronomical Observatory in Russia.

(Sally Taylor looks familiar)

Indianna=Let's see. I will actually produce corroborating evidence for my opinion.
This is a thick journal, but still comprhensible:
BEYOND THE IVORY TOWER: The Scientific Consensus on Climate Change -- Oreskes 306 (5702): 1686 -- Science
Undeniable Global Warming (washingtonpost.com)

Let us talk about credentials, frauds, crackpots, and see where their claims stand in reality.
Let us look for Milloy. You heard of this BS:
Climate Progress » Blog Archive » Inhofe recycles unscientific attacks on global warming, NYT’s Revkin gives him a pass
Oh yeah,
ExxonSecrets Factsheet: Steven Milloy

Quite the track record for a 'scientist' LMFAO!!!!:
- - -
Steven J. Milloy is the "junk science" commentator for FoxNews.com and runs the Web site junkscience.com, which is dedicated to debunking what Milloy labels "faulty scientific data and analysis."

Among the topics Milloy has addressed are what he believes to be false claims regarding DDT, global warming, Alar, breast implants, secondhand smoke, ozone depletion, and mad cow disease.
- - -

On September 14, 2001, three days after terrorist attacks destroyed the World Trade Center, Milloy wrote that the World Trade Center towers might have stood longer, preventing many casualties, had the use of asbestos fire-resistant lagging not been discontinued during the Towers' construction.

In 1998, Milloy, writing on behalf of TASSC, co-wrote an article which called for the abolition of the position of United States Surgeon General.

The New Republic reported that Milloy, who is presented by Fox News as an independent journalist, was under contract to provide consulting services to Philip Morris through the end of 2005.[2] In 2000 & 2001, for example, Milloy received a total of $180,000 in payments from Philip Morris for consulting services

Milloy has criticized research linking secondhand tobacco smoke to cancer, claiming that "the vast majority of studies reported no statistical association."[11] In 1993, Milloy dismissed an Environmental Protection Agency report linking secondhand tobacco smoke to cancer as "a joke."

Because we are governed by fools, liars, idiots and rogues.

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That's true enough, but the fact is that tax obtained from local production has cost us labour, resources, infrastructure, etc. etc. Tax obtained from a foreign product has cost us none of these. In tax terms, it is pure profit.

Therefore it is reasonable to encourage the purchase and use of foreign products, by making them less expensive than the home-grown stuff. That way, the government gets the profit, without the expense. Remember, it's TAX I'm talking about, not price.

Yeah, it's news.

Because it is someone else doing it, too. That's the news aspect.

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