Now heres one that could throw up some strong opinions :)
Where do you guys think web design is headed?
Do you agree with me that multimedia experiances are needed to improve the interactivity and visual impact for site visitors. I could fully understand the need for quick loading static HTML sites when most people had to contend with 56k dialups but now!
I personal have got to the point that i find it hard to get up in the morning and get the creative juices
going knowing that i have to come up with yet another static flat html site, thats why im moving over to Flash.
I've been dismayed though by the negitive comments i've seen regarding Flash sites and the reasons to qualifly those statments like, SEO rankings.
Since when did Google start telling designers how to design websites. Tail waging the dog so to speak. Surly there job is to write algrithims to find the sites out there not our job to design around them.
Well that should get things started.
Please keep all replys friendly with reasons for your opinions. Im looking for a serious discussion on the future of website design.
Looking forward to your comments.
Thanks

I think/hope that some day not too far away in the future "web designers" will eventually realize what the "design" in "web design" means, resulting in websites which are actually usefull and useable.

If you (generally spoken, not you personally) are not able to do it in "flat HTML", you are most likely not able to do it in flash either.

And if you have to serve the growing mobile market, you have even more restrictions.

But this is what design is all about: working under constraints.

Making websites work under ALL conditions is the real challenge. It is not whether to use plain HTML or FLASH or WAP or WHATEVER, but to use what is appropriate and serve the right content in the right situation to the right device.

faglork

I think/hope that some day not too far away in the future "web designers" will eventually realize what the "design" in "web design" means, resulting in websites which are actually usefull and useable.

OK good start , now lets clear up deffinition for the purpose of this disscussion. Yes i agree that useability has to be the bedrock of the design process but i don't agree that thats where it ends by a long stretch. Maybe it has been up too now given the restictions on bandwidth ect,but now we have the ability to deliver interesting interactive experiances to our customers. If a customer looks at one of my sites and has no reaction except, that works, does what it needs to do then i belive i've missed an opertunity to put a smile on there faces and make the site more memorable.
If car designers stoped at the usabilty point we,ed all be driving 2CVs :)
Remember customers are demanding and get bored with the same old thing.

If you (generally spoken, not you personally) are not able to do it in "flat HTML", you are most likely not able to do it in flash either.

Iagree 100%

And if you have to serve the growing mobile market, you have even more restrictions.

A very good point , and one i'd not realy considered as much as i should have upto now.

The problem with your Flash comment as it pertains to Google is that Flash really isn't designed for use as a website creator. It obviously can be done, but it's not the primary use for Flash.

Think about this: what is a flash? It's a sudden burst of light that's here in a second and then gone. An accent. Something designed to attract your attention.

So...if you build a whole site in Flash, your entire site in effect becomes an accent. What's really important in it? What isn't? And therein lies your problem.

I use Flash minimally at best. I use it for things like banners, short intros (when clients ask for them, even when I warn them in advance), inline movies (e.g. the one at www.sustainabilityincubator.com ), but that's it.

The whole point behind my usage of Flash is to draw specific attention to something on the site. In other words, to guide the user's eye.

As far as design goes, I think that it goes beyond more than aesthetics and usability. I think one of the most overlooked and underrated keys to design is web programming. Drawing information from a database; dynamic content generation; templating a layout to allow for quick and easy changes to it; developing functions and procedures which can be reused and therefore speeding up development time; this is a major factor in the future of design.

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It should not "end" there, right. The point is to make feature-rich websites which can *adapt* to the need of the customers/visitors. "Want a full-fledged FLASH version with mega fun factor? Ok, here goes ... oops, you use a Smartphone via GPRS? Here's the perfect version for you ..."

Switchable stylesheets, for example, can go a long way: You can turn a graphically demanding page into an black/white version for the colorblind with one click ...

I just watch a competitor take a nose-dive because he is thinking this way ... it depends on your audience. For example, I live in a rural area, with DSL slooooowly catching on and 56k modems still widely in use. If I would employ multimedia, I had to make shure that it would scale down to slow connections and/or offer a static alternative.

On the other hand, if I were located in Berlin and would operate an e-zine for the local PC games clans, I would sure take a different approach ...


You job as a designer is to deliver *both*.

Bad example ... years ago I owned one.
Usability? Not much.
Accessibility? Ok, you could load a sofa through the open roof.
Fun factor? Huge. I spent my most memorable holiday trips in a 2CV.
Personality? Mega. In those days, this was the Rolls-Royce for the "green" movement. And it sported some clever design ideas as well. Definitely puts "a smile on your face".

To cut it short. It wasn't very "useable", but had a great "personality". IF usability had been better (heating!! etc.) it would have been a MUCH better car.

From a user's point of view: It failed to deliver in some vital parts.

I now drive a BMW, which is VERY useable, much fun to drive, and has almost cult status (it is an over 20 year old machine which became famous in a German detective TV series).

IF this car had the same usabilty problems like the 2CV, I would not use it. Luckily, it incorporates the best of both worlds: Usability PLUS great personality. Alas, it fails on a third level: It uses a bit too much gas and is expensive (tax-wise).

But this is an OLD design from the eighties, much like the old "1996 old-school designs" found on many websites: "1996" not in terms of "visual design", but in terms of accessibility and/or usability.

And that is all I want to see: Visually compelling, interactive websites which make full use of the web's potential - high-bandwidth elements when *and only when* the device allows it or the visitor wants it. If this is not the case, the website should still deliver, should still work flawless.

A huge task? You bet. But this is *design*. IMHO, I should add ...

faglork

well the far futueer will be holo and VR it only natureal that we will end up there one day

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Most customers don't know anything about the internet, they think when things are moving on the screen, it's a good website..

Therefore it is indeed a hard task to convince them of different ideas.
However, if you could give your customer an estimation of the daily revenue he/she could get through that flat-HTML-almost-boring-website, i'm pretty sure that would cause some positive reaction...

Making a website is like writing a business-plan. If it can't convert to sales, you have no business. Come to this point with your customer. If he/she understands, i'm sure Flash isn't an issue anymore.

Whenever I expain to a designer or programmer what I want, they always overide it with their own opinion.
usually they tell me it cannot be done.

There will be a future for designers, but only the good ones.

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I think your asking the wrong designers, ANYTHING can be done, it just takes imagination and a bit more hard work :)

Why would you want to change there minds? surly its their choice. If their looking for something more like a TV add and less like a business card/brochure and its applicable to there target audiance then why would you (not you personaly)not do just that?

Maybe but id rather spend the extra time and effort working on something a little bit special even if i earn less.

That makes me think? How many of you guys come from programming backgrounds and how many from design/art.
I wonder if the split in opinions is that simple?

TOO right! can't wait :)Just hope im still around to see it. Perhapes thats why im so keen to see things moveing on.

Yeah, virtual reality will be brilliant!

I'm more of a designer than a programmer. I always want to spend more time making a website look good - much like a piece of art. This can also be achieved through the programming side but the customers never see or understand that. I personally do not see the benefit of Flash. Sometimes it is good to liven a page up a little but in terms of building an entire site out of it, I don't think it's necessary. Sure they can be amazing websites but they are often nothing like other plain websites that Internet users know how to use and are familiar with. There's also the issue of them taking longer to load. A lot of people will leave the site really quickly if they cant find a link to what they want or if it loads slowly.

A lot of people that want a website havent got a clue about what they actually want. Some have an example of another site but often it's not on the same subject or not suitable for their purposes. It's in these cases when they'd prefer moving flash and expensive stuff that it's hard to convince them otherwise. A customer will always want everything but to pay as little as possible. To pay as little as possible I say don't ask for Flash.

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Fasterstill
Quote;
"I think your asking the wrong designers, ANYTHING can be done, it just takes imagination and a bit more hard work :)"

But who pays the designer/programmer to learn how to do it, when they already 'know how to do it'.

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Sorry Tubby,read this a few times but am not sure what your saying, can you re-phase.

They'd be the first who wouldn't accept money ...

In most cases, the "it cannot be done" translates to "it cannot be done with this budget".

I have been in this situation quite a few times, as programmer/consultant. Most clients do initially not know what they want, and once they know it, they have not the least clue about the costs involved.


But we digress ...

faglork

Compleatly understand your point on this one. Im probably in a slightly different position ATM as im just starting a new design company i'd look at it as an opertunity to build something a little special that has value to me as an example to add to my portfolio. As most of you guys have been at it for quite a while this no longer applys to you.
But i digress further:)

"Cannot be done" translates - I want to do it differently. A data base is easier for me. I do not understand why you want to do it that way. I think it is a stupid idea. what's the point of doing it like that?

I only post my own experiences, I am not one who forms an opinion on anything else but my own experience. I have found that programmers and designers get less receptive to the customers need as they get more succes selling their work. they "Know how to do it" When someone comes along equally arrogant about how something needs to done . . . they just opt out. .

I have spent the last seven years concentrating on one small area of the market. I do not want to be told that something 'can't be done', when my research tells me that this is what I want to do.

I am in a competetive field and my income is dependant on "getting it right", why would I want a designer and programmer who want to fight all the way kicking and scratching... ( I wouldn't)

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That's true, but if Flash is what you want to use, you'll need a lot of hardwork, imagination and self control(flash animators have a tendency to go overboard). Try this, not sure if you've already seen it - http://www.maverick.com/

What a great site! Some of it takes a while to load but it does look really fresh and modern. Do you know who designed that?

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Yup, its a very well developed site, even though its flash based. They're a major production house, so I think they would have an inhouse team.

so the site looks great.. so what??

apparently search engine rankings don't matter for these people.

there are lots of businesses on the web that don't exist solely off their SE ranking and have more than enough offline branding to not have to worry about that, as long as they show up for their company name - ebay, amazon, google...

Good on them, about time we all started to build the sites we or our customers want not design around googles algarithims. If enougth people do the same perhaps google will have get off there butts and do some work.
"Sits back and waits for the flack" :)

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So what happens when there's so many websites that it's going to be impossible to get any website to the top of a search engine list? I say design what and how you want. A search engine is not always the best way to advertise a website!

There seems to be an arguement stemming from the difference of design and website optimisation. From a design perspective that flash site is excellent but from an SEO perspective it's awful! I think this means that Macromedia & Google need to come up with better ways to allow these websites to be indexed just as fairly as the other 'look the same as everything else' websites.

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I posted a whole rant on this subject almost a year ago, here http://www.webproworld.com/viewtopic.php?t=29436

Did',t get much response, but then hey, didn't expect to.

Even if I stick to flat uninteractive sites for now, I know how I imagined had imagined the internet would evolve in 10 years and the things we were talking about then. It was nothing like this.

I firmly believe that if you find a niche market, you will succeed in web design and development. Find a business market that you want to cater to and stick with it. Do you want to design for:

Small business owners with a small budget?
Large businesses with a large price tag?

Do your homework where you plan to focus your client base, see what services are needed by the business community and become the provider of that service.

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