So Which Was It, The Chicken Or The Egg?

Jason Tor · #1 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 11:51 AM

I read netman4ttm's post Western Civilization, he started it because of another post I started about stem cell research. It reminded him of a mid term exam in Philosophy 101 "who was more important to the development of Western Civilization, Jesus or Pericles?"

Now this got me thinking about the age old question: Who came first, the chicken, or the egg.

I thought if someone hadn't discovered stem cell research, I wouldn't have posted a thread about it. Since I wouldn't of posted a thread about it, he wouldn't of posted a thread about Western Civilization. But maybe if he hadn't taken Philosophy 101, the thread I didn't post wouldn't of reminded him of a test that he never would have taken.

Can someone clear this up for me?

-Jason Tor

wenwilder · #2 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 12:54 PM

You sound like an escapee from the "Tomorrow" thread lol

The age old question of which came first, the chicken or the egg was answered! I'll let you find out the answer for yourself ;)

If you prefer scientific research though - the egg came first. Two non-chickens laid an egg containing mutated DNA that became a 'chicken'.

Quote:

Scientists agree on where chickens came from: In a sense, human beings invented them, just like they invented cows and pigs and other domesticated animals on Old MacDonald's Farm.

If chickens were interested in tracing their family trees, they would need to bone up on some DNA research done in Japan. Every chicken that ever lived can trace its ancestors, say researchers, to a particular subspecies of Red Jungle Fowl in Thailand.

The male Red Jungle Fowl looks a lot like a storybook rooster. But the Jungle Fowl isn't identical to a farm chicken. Unlike chickens, female Red Jungle Fowls have no combs. Another Jungle Fowl peculiarity: After mating season, males replace their bright red and orange ruff with a crop of dull, blackish feathers called "eclipse plumage."

(To see a Red Jungle Fowl in all its scarlet glory, visit the website http://www.centralpets.com/pages/cri.../WBD4315.shtml.)

Scientists think the first domestic chickens were bred from Red Jungle Fowls more than 8,000 years ago in the region now divided into Thailand and Vietnam. People bred chickens first for cockfighting contests, later for eggs and meat.

So the first official "chicken" pecked its way out of an egg laid by a bird that was not-quite-a-chicken. Depending on how you look at it, the egg--or the wild chicken--came first.

In creating the domestic chicken--and coming up with some 175 varieties--human beings also created a world where chickens rule the roost: There are more chickens than any other kind of domesticated bird on Earth.

And where did birds come from? Scientists think that a group of egg-laying feathered dinosaurs were probably the ancestors of today's birds. So if it weren't for dinosaurs, there wouldn't be any Jungle Fowl OR chickens.

We've solved the riddle of where chickens came from. But there's still the question of where eggs came from.

Scientists say eggs--handy miniature incubators of life, nutrients already packed inside--evolved more than 1 billion years ago, in the oceans of Earth. When land animals evolved about 250 million years ago, their eggs had a tough covering to retain moisture on dry land. Egg-layers like amphibians, reptiles, and insects flourished. The first "land eggs" pre-dated chickens by about 249,992,000 years.

So "the egg" may be one answer to the old riddle, but here's another, if a little longer: The chicken came after the bird, the bird came after the dinosaur, the dinosaur came after the egg. And the egg came long after the first single-celled bacteria, the prokaryotes, evolved in the oceans, some 3.5 billion years ago.

Jason Tor · #3 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 01:16 PM

wen, you never cease to amaze me!
So where did the the prokaryotes come from???

-Jason Tor

esiegel · #4 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 01:19 PM

since we are on a philosopy topic...

I always liked the...if a tree falls in the forest and nobody is there to hear it does it make a sound...question.

I'll never forget the great philosopher...Jonny Carson...explaining on the Tonight Show:

Sound is simply the movement of air in waves which...when the hit an ear drum are preceived as sound. Therefore if there is no ear...there is no sound.

He went one step further to explain that a tree is simply an arrangement of molecules...that when viewed in that arragement are preceived as a tree. Therefore...if nobody is there to see the tree the tree doesn't exist and the whole sound question is moot.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

wenwilder · #5 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 01:37 PM

Take that a step further - what if there is no reality? What if we are nothing more then echo's of a sentient beings dreams? What we preceive as reality has neither mass nor weight in truth, but for our 'existence' to continue we grasp on to a tautology? Our reality is never the same as anyone elses. We see things as WE are, not as they are.

The chicken and egg theory is nothing more than a theory. It always will be. It is one persons perception of what MAY have happened. We can not revert back to that time to prove the theory, nor can it be duplicated in this time. What has happened has happened. The tree, the forest, the egg, the chicken, they are all only as we perceive them.

I don't recommend trying to close your eyes plug your ears and THEN walk through a tree. It does hurt! ;)

esiegel · #6 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wenwilder

I don't recommend trying to close your eyes plug your ears and THEN walk through a tree. It does hurt! ;)

you've obviously seen the bump on my head.

Jason Tor · #7 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 01:56 PM

What about this, in this day & age we have the idea to create artificial life. What if we are artificial life? What if we are all a bunch of ones and zeros, someone’s computer program, everything we see is what we were programmed to see. What if every persons knowledge goes into a giant database for the "creator" who is using our knowledge to solve his worlds problems.

Why are some people born with a natural ability to perform certain functions better then others, is it really natural or were they programmed that way? Why was the earth destroyed in the past, were we re-written? Was the "creator" not happy with the program? Do we really exist?

-Jason Tor

mikmik · #8 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 02:17 PM

"I refute it thus." Of course there is reality. What is your definition of reality?

"I think, therefore I am."

Those are my two favourite quotes of all time. I have not the slightest doubt we exist, or that there is a fundamental reality. It is shown by the presence of universal laws, to millionths of a percentage - the limits of measurement.
We could not predict anything if there wasn't a consistent set of rules at play, rules that govern events.

Quote:

We stood talking for some time together of Bishop Berkeley’s ingenious sophistry to prove the non-existence of matter, and that every thing in the universe is merely ideal. I observed, that though we are satisfied his doctrine is not true, it is impossible to refute it. I shall never forget the alacrity with which Johnson answered, striking his foot with mighty force against a large stone, till he rebounded from it, “I refute it thus.”
ATTRIBUTION: Samuel Johnson (1709–1784), British author, lexicographer. (Originally published 1791). Boswell’s Life of Johnson, Aug. 6, 1763, p. 333, Oxford University Press (1980).

My whole philosophy is based on a cause and effect reality, and to my knowledge, all rules of good and evil can be derived from it, by a concious intelligence with self awareness.

Everything makes sense to me, including the fact that I am here.

Is not the perception of being proof?

Here is my question to everyone: If you don't think there is a consistent, fundamental reality, then why do you act like there is? Everyone lives their life according to the rules. Actions speak louder than words.

We may create our own perception of reality, but there is an underlying commonality to all experience.

globalhostinggroup · #9 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 02:27 PM

the one celled ameba came first everything else is conjecture

mikmik · #10 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 02:31 PM

We are alive now, everthing else is conjecture!

Jason Tor · #11 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 03:48 PM

If God is eternal, how was he created?

-Jason Tor

gopher · #12 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 04:06 PM

God was created through a mixture of artificial insemination and gene cloning. You can get all of the bad genes out with this method, like dying and male pattern baldness.

mikmik · #13 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 05:01 PM

But, Y?

Jason Tor · #14 (**permalink**) 08-13-2004, 10:44 PM

Why is the ultimate question Mik,
That question can boggle the mind, most believe God created the universe and everything in it(including me), but what being created him, and what being created the being that created God?

If a thousand of our years equals 1 day to God, then does a thousand years to God equal 1 day to the being that created God?

-Jason Tor

mikmik · #15 (**permalink**) 08-14-2004, 07:58 PM

(Good conversation, Jason, let's go with it!
But I want to mention that by using the 'y' for 'why', I was talking about the 'female chromosome' in reference to cloning out all the bad stuff! Har har ;])
------------------------

Ready to go on a trip? LOL

First, "why" seems to be the question, doesn't it?
But why is it so important to us?
Why do we want to know why?

It gives us a sense of meaning and purpose. Of power, of control. What we don't know, we fear: it threatens us.
It is an instinct, for if we don't know enough, we can die. And the more we know, the more we have control over our situatioun, and ourselves.

But, knowing why 'is everything the way it is' seems to be just an extension of that survival instinct, the feeling of uncertainty is uncomfortable so we want to know more - always.

From evolutionary viewpoints, that would make sense, for the rewards for knowing stuff (being smart) give an advantage.( And therefore, being inquisitive is also attractive to us, we admire it. )

Then ego gets in the way, blah, blah ...I'm afraid of smart people=they are a threat/know to much/don't understand them/they have power over me etc., etc.
Make fun of geeks in school etc.

--------------------

If we were to create a machine intelligence, for example, that is self aware, sentient, or just conscious....Does that make us God?

What do you mean by God, Jason?

I am an athiest (basically, it really is impossible to prove the non-existence of God) and see God as an answer to our need to know where we came from. To give our lives purpose and meaning.
I have learned to be more comfortable - for myself, compared to how I used to be - with not having a strong desire to know there is an answer, or that it is important. I have practiced most of my life on just being accepting of 'what is', and not being worried if anything has a reason or not.
I give my own life reason, by various outlooks, values, and philiosophies personal to me, but explainable any time, of course!

---------------------------

I am not an animal, I am a superstitious being!

I am not an animal, I am a:

Quote:

Human (Homo sapiens)

Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Subphylum: Vertebrata
Class: Mammalia
Subclass: Eutheria
Order: Primates
Suborder: Catarrhini
Family: Hominidae
Genus: Homo
Species: Homo sapiens!

I am a human being, I am all of the above. :O)))

mikmik · #16 (**permalink**) 08-14-2004, 08:33 PM

Actually, I just remembered my third of what I call "My favourite quote" (I know, but they are tied for first lol)

" the emporer has no clothes!"

Quote:

And it came to pass that the Emporer tried on his coat of many colors for the Grand Procession.

"Look at the magnificence of this coat", exclaimed the Emporer! .."..See the gold encrusted sequins.. the fine material!.."

And all the court sycophants agreed, even though they saw that the Emporer indeed had no clothes!.. For the Emporer was always right, and he had brought them great riches. How could they not see the grandeur of the Emporer's clothes? For if the Emporer saw it, and his servants saw it, a humble minion must be lacking in perceptual powers not to see it.

The court servants and eunechs clapped as the seamstress added the final touches to the robe as the Emporer stood proudly in their midst, adjusting the folds of the coat, adjusting the golden chains and sewing on imaginary buttons.

"Oh your majesty, it is such a fine robe!" ..sycophanted the seamstress...

Come the day of the Grand Procession, and the Kingdom had never seen such grandeur. The court musicians played their hearts out. the jugglers juggled, the eunechs euneched. At first some couldn't believe that the Emporer was completely divest of clothing. But they could never admit they could not see what everybody else saw.. ...And it was grand.. And it was good.. His subjects applauded wildly as the Emporer paraded down the street in his new clothes. Such wild admiration had not been seen in the kingdom as all commented on the richness of the fabric, the fine tailoring, the sparkling jewels.. the exquisite cut..

..Save for a little urchin boy, who tugged on the sleeves of his mother who was beaming with adulation for the Emporer..

"...But Mommy..", said the dirty uneducated innocent from the provinces who knew no better, "...the Emporer has no clothes!..

Why do people need to see answers where none exist?

Jason Tor · #17 (**permalink**) 08-17-2004, 12:55 AM

Ok Mik, I have a really busy week and since your answer will actually require me to think, give me a couple days :)

mikmik · #18 (**permalink**) 08-17-2004, 02:52 AM

Well, sometimes I guess that I think to much, and I get awfully confused!
So I have to fall back on experience and observation to make decisions, and get answers.

Like today, for instance, the egg came first. With toast and hash browns. Pass the ketchup. :o)

But then, second came the egg, hard boiled, at lunch???

Last, though, definitely not first, the chicken came. It was on a plate with noodles and sauce, and had some kind of ketchuppy stuff and melted cheese on it.

That was easy :o)))

netman4ttm · #19 (**permalink**) 08-19-2004, 05:39 PM

I think therefore I am not. (Descartes if he read what he wrote for the first 400 pages.)
Everthing is God. Spinoza
Nothing is God Satre
Jump you fool. Keirkegaard
God? You wanna bet Pascal
God is dead Nietzche (however it was the town idiot who pointed out this interesting tid bit so it may not be true)

Personally, I am sure that the answer is bacon. Can't cook eggs without bacon.

Jason Tor · #20 (**permalink**) 08-19-2004, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikmik

What do you mean by God, Jason?
I am an atheist (basically, it really is impossible to prove the non-existence of God) and see God as an answer to our need to know where we came from. To give our lives purpose and meaning.

Hmmm... I want to know who created the universe, and who created the creator of the universe. Although I have nothing but faith, the question still lingers "who created the one who created us". What is beyond our universe? Are we an experiment?

It's the eternal factor that makes me think about who or what was actually the first, and what came before him/her/it? There had to be a beginning, so what came before that beginning.

The more I ponder this question the more I believe, there couldn't of been any one beginning. Not the way were able to understand things, there has to be something more, and something beyond that. But What?

mikmik · #21 (**permalink**) 08-19-2004, 08:27 PM

I here ya, Jason, I am like that also. Most of us around here are...the curious type!

netman4ttm, I just read in "The Hitch-Hikers Guide To The Galaxy" that the answer is '42'.

42? Yes, aparently the answer only makes sense if you ask the right question LOL

But it is the answer to everything
However, I prefer bacon. Anytime, all the time, it is good! ROFLOL

globalhostinggroup · #22 (**permalink**) 08-20-2004, 10:17 AM

The Hitch-Hikers Guide To The Galaxy wowo it’s bean years since I read that.

Ohh I think someone had too many eggs we need to air this room out.

Melting cheese on a live chicken and having it dance on a plate of noodles hummm…

Why do people need to see answers where none exist?
Why do people feed on despair to raise their own worth through lowering others judge people by groups.
This is a endless debate.
Anyone file a petition to have that intergalactic highway moved

Jason Tor · #23 (**permalink**) 08-20-2004, 09:37 PM

"Why" can spawn a single thought from a million people or a million thoughts from a single person.

I don't know "why" I said that.

mikmik · #24 (**permalink**) 08-22-2004, 06:54 AM

"Why" can spawn a single thought from a million people or a million thoughts from a single person.

Did you make that, Jason? It is very good.

Quote:

Curiosity is one of the most permanent and certain characteristics of a vigorous intellect. ~ Samuel Johnson

I think, at a child's birth, if a mother could ask a fairy godmother to endow it with the most useful gift, that gift would be curiosity. ~ Eleanor Roosevelt

Curiosity is as much the parent of attention, as attention is of memory. ~ Richard Whately

The most important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely ~ Albert Einstein

Curiosity is the very basis of education and if you tell me that curiosity killed the cat, I say only the cat died nobly. ~ Arnold Edinborough

Necessity may be the mother of invention, but curiosity is the mother of discovery. ~ Charles Handy

A prudent question is one half of wisdom. ~ Francis Bacon

Things which stimulate my curiosity are pretty far removed from the practical and therefore from classification. ~ J. Robert Oppenheimer

Curiosity will conquer fear even more than bravery will. ~ James Stephens

pete61uk · #25 (**permalink**) 08-23-2004, 06:04 AM

Some questions just can't be answered. Simply put, they just "are". This is "blind" faith!

Intelligence and curiosity (combined) is the germ that leads to identifying the questions that can and cannot be answered. Diversity is the difference between "camps" and the driving force that both unites and seperates us all. Natural selection is therefore the force that ultimately decides which camp survives.

To acknowledge that you cannot know everything, is enlightened ignorance!

Jason Tor · #26 (**permalink**) 08-24-2004, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikmik

"Why" can spawn a single thought from a million people or a million thoughts from a single person.

Did you make that, Jason? It is very good.

Ya that's an original, I enjoy thinking for no reason sometimes. The brain can be amazing when you explore the depths it can take you to....If you let it.

So I started school today, BIO 181 is my first class and I have to say I'm sure glad all the nurses have to take it! The class is about 90% "chicks" heh heh. Wish I was 18 again!

mikmik · #27 (**permalink**) 08-24-2004, 05:13 PM

A couple of 'quotes' like that and the smart ones will not care about age.

There are more and more of all ages going back to school these days, a friend of mine is 29, and she starts nursing this year. She is beautiful, smart, but taken..sigh..

Hey, good luck, college boy :o)

And good luck with the courses, too!

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