Is this a crime?

chandrika · #1 (**permalink**) 05-10-2008, 04:52 AM

A few months ago a man emailed me with regards wanting to purchase some stock at trade prices. He asked for a price if he were to purchase 100 units and so I quoted him a knock down trade price.

Subsequently things started to get weird. Rather than placing an order, he started emailing some contacts he had and then coming to me saying can you send one/two units to his contacts.

I stated that I we not have a dropship arrangement, and that the price was different on those terms.

I then discovered that the guy did not actually exist and was using an alias, had provided fake company details, a fake company website and so I did not want to deal with him any longer, at which point he started demanding money from me. he wanted commission from me based on the price I had given for a quantity order of 100, so he wanted me to give him around $120 for each unit that his contacts had bought, which was just 3 in total.

I did not know what to do, so I just ignored his email demanding money.

I had sent a free sample of the unit to one company, who were supposed to return it to me, I enclosed packaging addressed for the return of the unit.

I just discovered that the guy demanding money from me, contacted the customer who had had the free sample and told him to return the unit to him. He mailed me saying he was taking it in lieu of payment.

I am really peed off, first that he has used an alias, second that he is trying to railroad me into arrangements I didnt make and third that he is holding one of my units worth two hundred pounds, hostage.

This seems like simple theft to me and I wondered what you think I should do?

activeco · #2 (**permalink**) 05-10-2008, 07:10 AM

The world is full of crooks and sometimes it is difficult to recognize legitimacy.

Based on your story, I would legally threaten the sample holder to return the goods to me.
However, I also think that the guy deserves some commission for providing buyers, if so initially stipulated,
For such cases it is always good to have someone ready/hired for a legal advice.

cw1865 · #3 (**permalink**) 05-10-2008, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chandrika

A few months ago a man emailed me with regards wanting to purchase some stock at trade prices. He asked for a price if he were to purchase 100 units and so I quoted him a knock down trade price.

Subsequently things started to get weird. Rather than placing an order, he started emailing some contacts he had and then coming to me saying can you send one/two units to his contacts.

I stated that I we not have a dropship arrangement, and that the price was different on those terms.

I then discovered that the guy did not actually exist and was using an alias, had provided fake company details, a fake company website and so I did not want to deal with him any longer, at which point he started demanding money from me. he wanted commission from me based on the price I had given for a quantity order of 100, so he wanted me to give him around $120 for each unit that his contacts had bought, which was just 3 in total.

I did not know what to do, so I just ignored his email demanding money.

I had sent a free sample of the unit to one company, who were supposed to return it to me, I enclosed packaging addressed for the return of the unit.

I just discovered that the guy demanding money from me, contacted the customer who had had the free sample and told him to return the unit to him. He mailed me saying he was taking it in lieu of payment.

I am really peed off, first that he has used an alias, second that he is trying to railroad me into arrangements I didnt make and third that he is holding one of my units worth two hundred pounds, hostage.

This seems like simple theft to me and I wondered what you think I should do?

I think your best approach here is to approach this from a 'contract law' perspective. From the facts that you presented, it appears that the man demanding funds from you did two things: 1. he used false information to obtain the initial quote; this is fraudulent inducement or a fraud ab initio (a fraud from the onset); 2. Despite all of this, he never actually places the order, so basically you just had a quote that is out there without any acceptance.

For some reason, this man begins to e-mail you contact information of potential leads. I am a little bit perplexed here because why did you think he was doing this? Essentially he's putting in a Request for Quote for a hundred units and then he's giving you the contact information of the people who would ostensibly be purchasing these units from him? This doesn't make much sense.

Notwithstanding, this man somehow knows that you sold units to these contacts. Why would he know if he's not part of the deal?

At this juncture, he's attempting to seize what he considers the appropriate 'commision' by going to your customer. Frankly, he should not be doing this, there is simply no privity of contract (tortious interference with contract).

Without a formal writing, you will have to check out the UK's quasi-contract principles because his position is going to be that you were 'unjustly enriched' - When I first came out of law school, I wanted trial experience and the cases that the higher ups will give you are the small lousy cases, ie. the son of an important client, etc. These sorts of facts and circumstances happened all the time, people dealing very informally which worked until a dispute arose.

Your best bet here is to communicate with the recipient of the free sample and to indicate that unless the free sample is returned to you that you will be invoicing them.

nullvariable · #4 (**permalink**) 05-10-2008, 11:44 AM

This is certainly fraud. Conning someone into sending a demo unit to them instead of back to you puts both the person they sent it to and themselves in danger. Technically you'll likely have to go after the customer who was supposed to return the unit and they'll have to go after this person. Since it sounds like you never offered a commission, only a bulk discount I wouldn't think twice about not paying this person. Also the quicker you cut your loses with this type of person the better off you'll be...This sort of person needs to be reported but they count on not being reported or no one being able to prove anything. If you can afford it consult a lawyer.

chandrika · #5 (**permalink**) 05-10-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cw1865

For some reason, this man begins to e-mail you contact information of potential leads. I am a little bit perplexed here because why did you think he was doing this? Essentially he's putting in a Request for Quote for a hundred units and then he's giving you the contact information of the people who would ostensibly be purchasing these units from him? This doesn't make much sense.

Notwithstanding, this man somehow knows that you sold units to these contacts. Why would he know if he's not part of the deal?

This was when things got weird, having told me he was from this fake company and given a fake name, and getting a quote for a wholesale price, he then came to me and said that one of his contacts had placed an order for one, and asked could I process the guys payment, I kept asking him what about his cut for getting me a sale and he kept saying we can talk about it later, lets just get it processed. Another thing I was annoyed about, was that I saw in subsequent emails that were visible beneath emails he sent me with despatch addresses, that he was sending out invoices in my Company Name!

So these 3 buyers sent money direct to me and I sent them the goods, as I would with any sale, it was just that this guy had got the sale. So although he may be due a commission, that would be entirely different from the kind of markup, someone who bought stock as a reseller would expect. He is basically asking for a commission of about 45%, saying that is what was agreed, when I am adamant that was not at all agreed and dont like being pushed that way.

I agree that I owe him something for getting the sale, although due to his having used a fake name and taken one of my units to blackmail me into paying him, I feel loathe to give the guy anything because of that. I had tried to discuss with him about that, but he keeps rail roading me saying that we had an arrangement, that we did not have.

Anyway, I decided not to mess about and dont want the hassle of it all really, but also dont want get done over that way. So I reported it to the police. I thought they may just laugh in my face, but actually they took it quite seriously, and the police here have passed it to police in his locality who are going to ask him for the unit back.

If he gives the unit back then that is fine and I told the police that I am quite willing to discuss what he thinks I owe him with him. But not under the circumstances that he is holding my property as blackmail to get money from me.

I guess I will see whether they do anything in the next couple of weeks.

Thanks for all your advice here, it is really appreciated, I wanted to run it by some other people, to see what others thought of the situation and what they would do.

chandrika · #6 (**permalink**) 05-10-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nullvariable

This is certainly fraud. Conning someone into sending a demo unit to them instead of back to you puts both the person they sent it to and themselves in danger. Technically you'll likely have to go after the customer who was supposed to return the unit and they'll have to go after this person. Since it sounds like you never offered a commission, only a bulk discount I wouldn't think twice about not paying this person. Also the quicker you cut your loses with this type of person the better off you'll be...This sort of person needs to be reported but they count on not being reported or no one being able to prove anything. If you can afford it consult a lawyer.

I hadnt thought about how it affected the customer, but like you say, they have also been somewhat conned into not returning the unit. I even sent them packaging to return it to my address. But the guy concerned is a real smooth talker, that I was not the only one taken in by him, as they are a large company, at least I don't feel quite so stupid...still a bit stupid, but at least I am not alone.

Hopefully the police will sort it out, otherwise, as the other party involved is a large company, then maybe they can do something about it, as like you say, they have not returned the unit to me as arranged, so it also affects them somewhat like you say.

jabo · #7 (**permalink**) 05-12-2008, 02:42 AM

That's a great way to wash money. What a money launderer. You should keep all of his email and contact the proper authority...

kgun · #8 (**permalink**) 05-12-2008, 12:37 PM

In order to give an independant answer I have not read the other posts in this thread. My suggested procedure:

Look up his site and his hosters site here: DNSstuff: On-demand DNS and network tools to analyze, diagnose and monitor a domain or IP address
Send an email with a (blind?) copy to his hoster and a blind copy to the police you trust in your and his country.

kgun · #9 (**permalink**) 05-12-2008, 12:43 PM

Now I have read the other posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nullvariable

This is certainly fraud. Conning someone into sending a demo unit to them instead of back to you puts both the person they sent it to and themselves in danger. Technically you'll likely have to go after the customer who was supposed to return the unit and they'll have to go after this person. Since it sounds like you never offered a commission, only a bulk discount I wouldn't think twice about not paying this person. Also the quicker you cut your loses with this type of person the better off you'll be...This sort of person needs to be reported but they count on not being reported or no one being able to prove anything. If you can afford it consult a lawyer.

My bolding.

Agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chandrika

Anyway, I decided not to mess about and dont want the hassle of it all really, but also dont want get done over that way. So I reported it to the police. I thought they may just laugh in my face, but actually they took it quite seriously, and the police here have passed it to police in his locality who are going to ask him for the unit back.

If he gives the unit back then that is fine and I told the police that I am quite willing to discuss what he thinks I owe him with him. But not under the circumstances that he is holding my property as blackmail to get money from me.

Good.
If you don't want to waste your time, don't answer any more. He will never take you to court.
Police in Norway take these cases more seriously now, and some political parties have it on their program to make a separate appartment for eCriminality.

You remember this

Euro / European City Guide Scam

thread? That site is still online. Hopefully it will soon be closed down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chandrika

I hadnt thought about how it affected the customer, but like you say, they have also been somewhat conned into not returning the unit. I even sent them packaging to return it to my address. But the guy concerned is a real smooth talker, that I was not the only one taken in by him, as they are a large company, at least I don't feel quite so stupid...still a bit stupid, but at least I am not alone.

Hopefully the police will sort it out, otherwise, as the other party involved is a large company, then maybe they can do something about it, as like you say, they have not returned the unit to me as arranged, so it also affects them somewhat like you say.

My bolding.

Large company?

Read my very abreviated story here DigitalPunkt.no need for bookmarks or favourites. if you have time. Do you think it degrades my health? They call me once every half year. Persons have asked, how can a large bank hold back written evidence in court? They did not answer about 15 emails and do not follow up written mails from Norwegian Government. They did not give the name of a person that called me. A very important call.

If they are large enough, they can here, so long. If you are afraid, you loose. Sometimes, time is what large companies fear most. Hopefully I live until I am 100 years.

Martinscholes · #10 (**permalink**) 05-12-2008, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chandrika

A few months ago a man emailed me with regards wanting to purchase some stock at trade prices. He asked for a price if he were to purchase 100 units and so I quoted him a knock down trade price.

Subsequently things started to get weird. Rather than placing an order, he started emailing some contacts he had and then coming to me saying can you send one/two units to his contacts.

I stated that I we not have a dropship arrangement, and that the price was different on those terms.

I then discovered that the guy did not actually exist and was using an alias, had provided fake company details, a fake company website and so I did not want to deal with him any longer, at which point he started demanding money from me. he wanted commission from me based on the price I had given for a quantity order of 100, so he wanted me to give him around $120 for each unit that his contacts had bought, which was just 3 in total.

I did not know what to do, so I just ignored his email demanding money.

I had sent a free sample of the unit to one company, who were supposed to return it to me, I enclosed packaging addressed for the return of the unit.

I just discovered that the guy demanding money from me, contacted the customer who had had the free sample and told him to return the unit to him. He mailed me saying he was taking it in lieu of payment.

I am really peed off, first that he has used an alias, second that he is trying to railroad me into arrangements I didnt make and third that he is holding one of my units worth two hundred pounds, hostage.

This seems like simple theft to me and I wondered what you think I should do?

It IS fraud and also theft.

Also, seeing as he sent you demands that might start to get into the area of blackmail, too.

Is he in the UK? Or EU? Or overseas?

chandrika · #11 (**permalink**) 05-13-2008, 07:31 AM

He is in UK and the police are looking into it, I am just about to call them and see how its going.

Interesting development, the large company who had originally had the sample and sent him to him instead of myself, just wrote and said that the parcel was not collected and that they were getting it returned to them and would send it to me.

However, I checked with Business Post who delivered it and they say it was definitely collected. I do know that the large company who had the sample, know this guy, not sure why they are trying to make out that the item was not delivered at all, but anyway Business Post states otherwise.

So the plot thickens.

nullvariable · #12 (**permalink**) 05-14-2008, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chandrika

He is in UK and the police are looking into it, I am just about to call them and see how its going.

Interesting development, the large company who had originally had the sample and sent him to him instead of myself, just wrote and said that the parcel was not collected and that they were getting it returned to them and would send it to me.

However, I checked with Business Post who delivered it and they say it was definitely collected. I do know that the large company who had the sample, know this guy, not sure why they are trying to make out that the item was not delivered at all, but anyway Business Post states otherwise.

So the plot thickens.

are you sure this is a large company? or could he or one of his cronies be pretending they work there? or could it be their site? I would tread lightly and even with having contacted the police still consider hiring an attorney if only to keep your reputation intact.