99% of all our problems are based on the concept of an "I", yet there isn't one.

Most people believe that "they" exist, but on closer inspection we see that "we don't exist the way we think we do.

Can you prove or disprove that you exist??

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Yes. I can prove I do not exist, But I shall not bore you. . (Maybe I should simply get my family to write on my tombstone. (or the little urn) the words

" See, I told you I do not exist, Tubby "

There was never any real argument about whether I existed until quite recently. I think up until 1945 It was quite a well accepted fact.

Personally I do not accept that our whole universe exists. I could make a small list of things that do exist, The things that are "Real"

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OK, so we know that the human body is a hodgepodge of millions of living organisms. But at least in my case, they wouldn't exist if I didn't exist.

That doesn't prove or disprove anything, though. How about this: We are standing outside on a sunny day. You are standing directly facing the sun, and I am facing you, so that my back is to the sun. Because of my physical existence, the sun is blocked and not shining in your eyes. Ancient humans' first tip of the moon existing as we know it does today was through this very same action - a solar eclipse.

I think you're going to need to substantiate your statement a little more. What, my friend, does the 'closer inspection' you speak of entail? And are you certain that the inspection would yeild the same results for each individual who conducts it?

That brings me to my point - I agree that people are selfish, that in our culture, most people are too fixed on themselves and not eachother. People need to be mindful of the global consciousness, not just their own, but certainly that isn't to say that I don't exist.

I know I exist - my shadow told me so.

Lerza wrote...

I think you're going to need to substantiate your statement a little more. What, my friend, does the 'closer inspection' you speak of entail? And are you certain that the inspection would yeild the same results for each individual who conducts it?

That brings me to my point - I agree that people are selfish, that in our culture, most people are too fixed on themselves and not eachother. People need to be mindful of the global consciousness, not just their own, but certainly that isn't to say that I don't exist.

I know I exist - my shadow told me so.

OK. Everything is made up of many different things. For example, a computer is made of many different components. It has a screen, battery, keyboard, processor and so on. But is it a computer??

Let's try to find the computer! If we were to look at each component, even the screws, wire, metal and plastic, is there "computer"?? Is the screen a "computer"?? Is the processor "computer"?? Or what about the screws that hold it together are they "computer". The answer to every component of finding a computer is NO. So when we put these components together that have no computer, then how can the result be computer??

This can be said of everything. It does not mean that they do not exist physically, it simply means that they do not exist the way we think they do.

We have erroneous logic, because we say that this is east and that is west, or this is up and that is down or even this is good and that is bad and we believe them to be true.

Holding on to these concepts as something concrete or existing in their own right causes us problems. Everything exists because of something else.

If we looked at something and tried to break it down to find its beginning, we would find that there is no beginning to it, which throws out the theory that there is a beginning to the universe, by science or by God.

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You know...
Rene` Descartes also struggled w the question of whether or not he existed, and there is now a wonderful saying because of him that goes a lil' something like..

"I think therefor I am"

Regardless of his reality construct, Rene` existed and continues to prove his existance in the global mind construct because we have documents and memoirs that prove, if nothing else - someone besides Rene` believed he existed as well, and took the time to document the unraveling of his theories. We have alot to thank Descartes for and the least is not his philosophical examinations of the existance of himself and others.

ahh, but what if our existence is just the thoughts (and following Descartes's idea they are therefore exisiting) of someone else?

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I like the computer analogy, but I think your argument now is based on our interpretation of language more than our interpretation of existence.

In keeping with the computer analogy, we should examine the language. Computer = that which computes. And we know that the component of a computer that makes computations is the processor. So if the processor is making the computations, a 'computer' does in fact exist. Now, we know that the processor can't do it all on its own, and it needs the other components to work as intended. But because of the constraints of the English language, it is feasible to call the compliation a computer when it is constructed properly and functions as intended.

This is much like the human body. Imagine a (completely constructed and properly functioning) computer that has no operating system installed. It is only with the introduction of software that the computer becomes usable, and actually 'computes.' See where I'm going with this?

I think what you are really getting at with all this is that we can't define what makes us special. How and why we are all connected spiritually has been a mystery to the earliest of humans. While I agree that there is no beginning and no end, but only change, I can assure you, however, that humankind definitely had a "beginning." Regardless of whether you believe in creationism or evolution, or a happy mix of both, you can agree that by either method, there was a point in time where man became man as we know him.

Let's take a common example from the wild: the lepidopteran. Lepidopterans start life as caterpillars, undergo a metamorphasis, and end up as a butterfly (or a moth). Throughout this transformation, however, they remain the same species. While it is the same species, we've been conditioned as children to know that caterpillars and butterflies are very different. They eat different food, have different predators, and for the most part live seperately. It is through the change that the caterpillar begins his life as a butterfly.

It is by this logic that I will firmly pronounce that there was most certainly a beginning to the universe as we know it, but it was brought about by change.

Our philosophical differences here lie in our accepted definitions of the words we are using to describe what we believe. What I'd like for you to recognize here is that much of the physical laws that govern any sort of physical existence are indeed concrete, and exist in their own right. It is through mankind's observation of this continuity that we have assumed the existence of other continuities, and I think this is what you are observing.

I'd still like to know how closer inspection of our own existence reveals that we don't exist the way we think we do, because I think that each and every human being has a slightly different interpretation of exactly how (and in some cases, why) they do exist.

Again, I'd like to point out that this is more of a debate on language than existence. Every human has slightly different ideas of what any given word means. Even though we can define them concretely, we still have to do so with other words, words for which there can be no standard, shared experience. Because your experiences are your own, your understanding of how to describe them is vastly different than any other person you will ever encounter.

In my personal estimation, my earthly existence began sometime between conception and birth, and will end sometime between death and being forgotten. Personally, however, I consider both of these events much closer to a lepidopteran metamorphasis than a beginning, or end.

ahh, but what if our existence is just the thoughts (and following Descartes's idea they are therefore exisiting) of someone else?

~~~~~~
my answer to that is:

if our existance was someone elses thought, then we would not have the cognative ability to think of ourselves as possibly not existing.

we would if the person imagining our reality thought so deeply whereas the mental characters are given full life (come on, don't imaginary friends feel and think as well?), contained within the boundaries of their mental faculties.

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If our existence is the sole result of the thought someone is having then…

They must have one hell of a head ache from all of that thought!... and I would like to ask them… “WHAT ARE YOU THINKING!”

Maybe if I have a few beers they will get drunk and then they will get IT from the mind which thinks THEM into reality for drinking on the job!

Ooooo… don’t get me started!!! Or rather I say… don’t get THEM started!!!


Illusions are tricks for the living, not the other way around.

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Am I th only one posting on this board? Where are the others?














;)

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Whatever is true on the micro level is also true on the macro level and vice a versa. If you have fungi growing on the wall, where did it start??

Nothing starts by itself. Everything exists because of causes and conditions. You can plant the seed of a tree, but it won't grow unless it has water, sunlight and the like.

To say that there is a beginning is absurd logic, just as much as to say that there is an end.

Nothing ever just stops being. It may give the appearance that it has ceased functioning, but it hasn't. When water constantly boils it evaporates. It transforms into steam and the steam becomes part of the air, a cigarette becomes ash, ash becomes part of the ground. You cannot remove something from the universe, everything just changes.

It doesn't matter whether your language is English or Swahili, language is about concepts and that's it's limitation.

The purpose of all this is to show you that everything has no inherent value. It shows us that we hang on to concepts too tightly, which cause us problems. Greed, anger and desire will cause us to not want to let go. This reminds me of the hunters who catch monkeys. The hunter would get a coconut and put a hole in it just big enough for a monkeys hand to fit inside. The hunter would fasten the coconut to a stake and firmly secure it in the ground. He would place candy inside to lure his victim. The monkey would put his hand in, grab a handful of candy, but realizes that he cannot get his hand out of the coconut. He will not let go for fear of losing what he has, even when he knows the hunter will catch him.

Humans are the same. They hang on to what they think they have, even if it is going to cause them problems.

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Zen said.

"To say that there is a beginning is absurd logic, just as much as to say that there is an end."

My thinking is that this is wrong. Everything that flows from it is wrong. If you are either going to have a staring point - or not have a starting point. I think it should at minimum, be acceptable to all the varied belief systems, Otherwise half the world will disagree with you. Simply making your starting point one of several options is silly.

"To say that there is a beginning is absurd logic,"

The above is Absurd logic. It is contrary to every thing I have ever felt, seen, touched, or observed.
I simply can not accept that infinity exsists.

So I might have to excuse myself from this topic.

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Xen2, I can see that now we are saying very similar things.

I think we must get over our differing conceptions of the word 'beginning.' I understand you think this means absolute origination by means of creation out of nothing, whereas I can conceive beginnings (and endings) being brought about by change.

This dispute notwithstanding, I would still very much like substantiation for your claim that upon further inspection, we don't exist the way we think we do. It seems this is actually an awfully bold assumption that everyone thinks as you used to think, or that everyone has the same conception of self. I can assure you, my friend, neither of these is true.

If you think it is absurd, then show me a beginning in anything, at least an example. And I didn't say "infinity", I call it beginningless and endless time, which are two different things.

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I can give you a very concrete, indisputable example of a beginning.

Varying cultures have different customs related to formal and informal greetings over the telephone. These customs likely began with widespread implementation of the invention of the telephone. The cultural "rules" regarding what is an acceptable telephone greeting are certainly identifiable. If you don't believe me, call someone random in 6 different spanish-speaking countries across the world and you will notice very different greetings, even though they speak the same language. And I can assure you that telephone etiquette began because of the invention of the telephone.

First things first...

I can conceive beginnings (and endings) being brought about by change.

Do you mean, for instance, an argument, this post, or a happy moment? If you are, then they are beginningless also. Take this thread. Did it begin when I wrote it or maybe before I wrote it, when I was thinking about writing it or when I read someone else's thread?

Secondly...

It seems this is actually an awfully bold assumption that everyone thinks as you used to think, or that everyone has the same conception of self...

Everyone does have the same concept of self, thinking that they exist as an individual. The concept of "id" has plagued man. "I" is a concept of me, no one else. It inherently says I am me and you are you. thus a separation of you and me, creating us and them. This is incorrect, because we do not exist separately, we are all interconnected, we all rely on other factors to exist. No man is an island.

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This is actually the first you've mentioned that you're specifically referring to time when you say there is no beginning.

With the obvious exception of time, there are many things that have distinct beginnings and endings. In my conception of the definition of the word 'beginning, ' time is not implicit, it is rather a reference to the specific instance.

Therefore, beginnings and endings do exist, and they are generally measured using a specific point in time. Just because time itself had no discernable beginning through our very limited abilities of observation, that is not to say that beginnings of other sorts don't exist.

Lerza said...

And I can assure you that telephone etiquette began because of the invention of the telephone.

But telephone etiquette is a result of people believing this to be acceptable, but why do they think it is acceptable? Was phone etiquette just born because of the telephone. I don't think so, cultures created it because of their sets of standards and those standards came into being because of something else and the list goes on.

So when we greet someone in the street, no matter what culture we are in, it came into being only because of human interaction? I can assure you that this is not true.

The greeting might be identifiable, but their origins are not.

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First of all, your tone here implies that you are the only person that believes this way. I, however, referenced the global consciousness before you mentioned it. How do you explain that, if my conception must in fact be exactly like every other human's except yours? The truth is, every human harbours varying degrees of spirituality, faith, and awareness of eachother. You are definitely not the only human that has reached or is capable of reaching the state of awareness you have.

Two things I find ridiculous here.
1.) This forum runs a type of forum software called phpBB. The server-side code is all php and when a post is made, it is saved in an SQL database. The way this works is that when someone clicks on the 'Submit" button, an entry is made in the database containing all of that particular post's content. Each thread, and each subsequent post, are identified by a specific number. Therefore, had you not clicked "Submit," this thread would not exist. It's not going to find its way into the database by sheer will. You clicked "Submit" and that was the beginning of the thread.
2.) You keep referring to yourself as "I," denoting that you indeed do see yourself as an individual.