Sending $100 Billion to the Moon?

MrLeN · #1 (**permalink**) 09-19-2005, 01:22 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/space/0...eut/index.html

Is it just me, or does it seem like a total waste of time to put men on the moon (for "SEVEN" days) at a cost of 100 billion dollars?

Did you know that America is borrowing money from China at low interest to finance Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea and Katrina? Also, did you know that Bush's tax cuts are only for Americas richest 1%? China is nowhere near as rich as the US per captia, but they are loaning the US money.

Does that say something about America's budget and priorities? Why borrow money from a poorer country, when you have more than enough rich people to pay for things? It seems that Bush doesn't want to offend the rich.

So when Bush says he is not going to raise taxes, what he is actually saying is that he will not take money from the richest 1% to finance these things which are slowly but surely pulling the US down.

From my recollection, Bushes excuse for the tax cuts was to give businesses "relief" of sorts, so that they (the rich) could use the extra money to expand, create new ventures and therefore new employment etc. Well that's the theory, even though I don't agree with it. However, I personally think it's time that the US start taxing the living daylights out of its "richest" people. Especially at this time. It is not a time for growth. The US is in a time where it needs to take a step back and do some housekeeping.

All these rich people have had it good for pretty much a whole generation now. But America is falling and it's time for everyone to chip in and to give back. Not only including, but ESPECIALLY those who have reaped so many rewards and benefits by being fed by the US all these years.

I've always liked Bush, but I've only got one nerve left regarding the condition and future of the US, and Bush is on it.

MrLeN

**dharrison** · #2 (**permalink**) 09-22-2005, 01:56 AM

100 billion dollars? You can do a lot with a billion dollars like cleaning up New Orleans, not going to the Moon. The man's a nutter!

Whys he bothering with the moon again? Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

I'm no expert but I daresay its cheaper to use satellite or them little robot thingies (when they don't crash).

Silly man >:-(

webhost1 · #3 (**permalink**) 09-22-2005, 06:08 AM

Nothing like US politics. One person in and another on the wings. Helps if you understand the party/person that is in. What have they done in the past when in office before they became the president of the US.

JKomp · #4 (**permalink**) 09-22-2005, 10:14 AM

space exploration is a vital step, this is one of few areas where i agree with bush, if we can make use of all the resources in our solar system then there is no reason for any one to be poor and no reason for any over crowding, the Earth is filling up with people and running out of resources, its about time we did something about it.

**mike** · #5 (**permalink**) 09-22-2005, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrLeN

Did you know that America is borrowing money from China at low interest to finance Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea and Katrina?

Also, did you know that Bush's tax cuts are only for Americas richest 1%?

However, I personally think it's time that the US start taxing the living daylights out of its "richest" people.

As to your first 2 points, I would love to see some math on them. Sounds awfully propagandist.

As for your third point, I simply don't agree. I aint close to rich, but that doesn't make me think they should pay more because they have more.

Bobby goes to school, works, studies, sacrifices and gets straight A's. Billy, goes to school, does what he needs to do to get by. At the end of the semester, should we take some of Bobby's grade points (since he has so many) and give them to Billy?

Evic · #6 (**permalink**) 09-22-2005, 02:33 PM

I'd like to see some proof as to the first two points as well. Us borrowing money from other countries, as well as countries borrowing from us, has been going on for years. It's a vital step in the world economy. I wouldn't doubt we are borrowing some money for those reasons you stated, but you make it seem as if we can't afford to pay for these things ourself and they are 100% solely funded by China. That is simply not the case.

As for the tax cuts only available for the 1% richest. Not true. My parents are nowhere near rich, and got excellent tax breaks. I'm military, so we all know I'm far from rich, and even I had more returned to me this year after filing my taxes than previous years.

As for the trip to the moon - I completely agree with Bush's plan. The new shuttle will be cheaper and safer to launch than the current shuttle we use. The ability to stay on the moon for longer periods of time (especially after we start building facilities there) leads to better technology and innovation. It also adds another stop on the way to Mars, decreasing the cost of a trip to Mars. It's cheaper to launch a shuttle off of the moon (requires less fuel and infrastructure) than it does to launch off of the Earth.

Personally, I'm very excited about where NASA is headed. It should be a very exciting time.

JKomp · #7 (**permalink**) 09-23-2005, 03:22 AM

"Bobby goes to school, works, studies, sacrifices and gets straight A's. Billy, goes to school, does what he needs to do to get by. At the end of the semester, should we take some of Bobby's grade points (since he has so many) and give them to Billy?" - Perhaps we should if Bobby was given opportunities and advantages that Billy never got. It's like giving one driver in a race a ford escort and another man a formula 1 car and then saying that the guy with the formula 1 car is clearly the better driver.
Steps should be taken to ensure a fairer distribution of wealth. Richer people should obviously be taxed more in my opinion. Just like good grades, being rich isn't all about who works hardest, at present, in a world of inequality and injustice the hardest working people are often some of the poorest.
Furthermore, I fundamentally disagree with Bush's economic policies. However, this does not mean that restarting lunar missions is wrong. Seeking out new opportunities and securing a future for mankind cannot be wrong. Do I agree with the way in which he is doing it? No, not entirely. Is it better than the nothing we have been doing over the past couple of decades? Certainly.
I think people need to be told that in the exploration of space it is possible to take one giant leap forward without taking two giant leaps back.

JKomp · #8 (**permalink**) 09-23-2005, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dharrison

100 billion dollars? You can do a lot with a billion dollars like cleaning up New Orleans, not going to the Moon. The man's a nutter!

Whys he bothering with the moon again? Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

I'm no expert but I daresay its cheaper to use satellite or them little robot thingies (when they don't crash).

Silly man >:-(

I daresay that it would be cheaper to use robots for lots of things. In fact we could all stay at home and let scientists design robots to run the world. We would end up with a lot of bloody good robots, but humankind would be no further forward.

I'm certainly not a neo-luddite or anything like that, but there are some things humans need to do for themselves.

**dharrison** · #9 (**permalink**) 09-23-2005, 05:33 AM

Fair do jkomp and yes I would love us to go to the moon.

But while there are still problems on this planet, I just feel that they should be put to right first. I know nothing will ever be perfect, but while aid still needs to be given to Africa, New Orleans, etc we should conquer that first.

Bush has his priorities a bit wrong thats all :-)

Anyway I find it hard to buy that we could go and live on the Moon. Theres that problem with no oxygen for a start. :-|

mikesmith76 · #10 (**permalink**) 09-23-2005, 06:01 AM

No disrespect intended but the old "while there's still problems on this planet" argument is pretty meaningless. There's always going to be problems of one form or another on our planet, its just the way life works.

I'm no scientist so can't start to list examples of improvements from space travel, but they do exist. as a race we like to know what is going on around us, not just on our own planet but elsewhere in the universe. what would have happen if everybody just stuck to their own little corner of the planet because "our country has it's own problems"?

just my little rant on the topic

mike

JKomp · #11 (**permalink**) 09-23-2005, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dharrison

Fair do jkomp and yes I would love us to go to the moon.

But while there are still problems on this planet, I just feel that they should be put to right first. I know nothing will ever be perfect, but while aid still needs to be given to Africa, New Orleans, etc we should conquer that first.

Bush has his priorities a bit wrong thats all :-)

Anyway I find it hard to buy that we could go and live on the Moon. Theres that problem with no oxygen for a start. :-|

My point is that by furthering our exploration of space we can solve some of the problems with the world. It is possible to colonise new planets, but obviously that won't happen very soon. There are however resources on other planets that we could use, such as moon cement and the natural gas found on many planets.

If we don't find new materials soon, combined with the development of renewable energy sources, then we many never have the means to solve the problems on earth that you aptly highlighted.

Tubby · #12 (**permalink**) 09-23-2005, 08:52 AM

money is not real anyway, Its only worth what we agree its worth. If we all agreed it was worth less it could cut the price quite a lot.

I would like to see some fixed prices, The price of a civilians life in a cobat zone, the price of a soliers life in a combat zone.

I do not know what these are worth, Except for little details that I have gathered from the odd source, like an armoured car is worth xxx many dollars more than a humvee and that soldiers live longer if they ride in the former, and it would cost a measly couple of hundred to hang on to a few more young men if they did just that.

Money is a concept, If something has never been alive at some stage in its existance - It was never been or ever will be real. When you can eat a thought, then money might become real. . it is just a method of telling the world what you value.

But I like space. Personally I see people as the seed of earth, and technology ejaculating man into space. The earth needs a seed, even if it is only to prove to me that it is all real....

**mike** · #13 (**permalink**) 09-23-2005, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkomp

"Bobby goes to school, works, studies, sacrifices and gets straight A's. Billy, goes to school, does what he needs to do to get by. At the end of the semester, should we take some of Bobby's grade points (since he has so many) and give them to Billy?"

- Perhaps we should if Bobby was given opportunities and advantages that Billy never got.

Everybody is more or less advantaged than everybody else. All things are not equal, that's the way things are. Taking away from Bob (who has done the work) to give to Billy (who only does what he has to) if fundamentally wrong.

The thing is, we don't have a caste system here. There are millions of success stories of folks who had very little, or nothing, becoming huge successes due to hard work and dedication. Turning around and expecting them to give more of what they have so that others, who just 'get by', can be more successful is just wrong.

And for what it's worth, taxes, income and otherwise, are based on percentages. As such, if the rich guy and the non rich guy are paying the same %, the rich guy is obviously going to be paying a lot more.

I'm not at all rich, but that doesn't mean I feel like the wealthy should be compensating me for it,

JKomp · #14 (**permalink**) 09-23-2005, 02:04 PM

"Taking away from Bob (who has done the work) to give to Billy (who only does what he has to) if fundamentally wrong."

This is where your analogy fails, being a rich person doesn't mean you have worked harder than people poorer than you. Furthermore, yes there is a lot of inequality in our world, does that mean we should just accept it? Shouldn't we strive to correct injustices? Being an american and indeed a reasonable human being i assume you believe in liberty and justice for all.

As for the self made people, their reward is their wealth, which if they truely have come from a disadvantaged background then surely they would be more than happy to help the people in their situation. Having climbed the dangerous mountain to success, surely they want to make the path a little less steep for the people that follow them. I do not subscribe to the doctrine that because i struggled to get where i am, he should too. Thats ludicrous and totally anti-progressive.

**mike** · #15 (**permalink**) 09-23-2005, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkomp

I do not subscribe to the doctrine that because i struggled to get where i am, he should too. Thats ludicrous and totally anti-progressive.

And I would submit...

"I struggled to the top so I should be required by law turn around and give a chunk of it to folks that didn't want to be bothered with the whole 'struggling' part"

...is pretty amusing to me.

I'm all for truth, justice, and spiderman comic books for everybody. That isn't to say I don't think people shouldn't have to make their own way.

Some try and fail and try again until they make it. Others try and quit, some don't try at all. I don't think the first group should be responsible for carrying the other two.

**dharrison** · #16 (**permalink**) 09-23-2005, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikesmith76

No disrespect intended but the old "while there's still problems on this planet" argument is pretty meaningless. There's always going to be problems of one form or another on our planet, its just the way life works.

Errr... which is what I said in my original thread that nothing will ever be perfect. :-)