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Accessibility and Usability Forum Discuss topics related to website accessibility and usability. Subjects include; testing techniques, tutorials, guidelines and legal issues.

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Old 07-27-2004, 05:37 AM
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Default Interview with the RNIB

Hello.

I promised our resident Accessibility guru that I would post an interview with the Royal National Institue of the Blind in the UK concerning website accessibility and the Disability Act. And here it is. Sorry about the sales pitch but that was part of the deal!
---------------

This interview was conducted on 16th July 2004 by Liam Wickham, Editor of The Wolf Network's WolfTalk Internet Ezine. He talked to the RNIB's Web Accessibility Consultant, Liz Angle:

Liam:

"Please could you briefly describe how the Discrimination Act affects any
business with a website?"

Lis:

"Under the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA) 1995 it is unlawful for any
service provider to discriminate again people with disabilities.
If you have a web site available to the public, then you are providing a
service, and you must ensure that your site is fully accessible to people
with disabilities.

"A Code of Practice published by the Disability Rights Commission (DRC)
accompanies the Act, and includes a website as an example or a service that
is covered under the DDA. This Code of Practice is available on the DRC
website at www.drc-uk.org.

"Employers who use an Intranet should also look at the accessibility of
Intranets, since their responsibilities as an employer under the DDA
includes making sure that their information and training systems don't
discriminate against employees with disabilities.

"More information on the DDA and the law can be found at
www.disability.gov.uk."

Liam:

"Is there a legal imperative that forces all companies to make their
website accessible?"


Lis:

"The law has been in force since 1999. Websites should have been complying
since then, and websites should be complying now! - if they are not they may
be in breach of the DDA, which could lead to high profile, embarrassing
court proceedings.

"One of the few examples is the Maguire v SOCOG case, in which the Australian
Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission found that the Sydney Olympics
Organizing Committee had breached Australian legislation by providing an
inaccessible website. Bruce Maguire was awarded AU$ 20,000. While the
Australian case came under the Australian DDA, which isn't quite the same as
the UK DDA, they are very similar pieces of legislation, and so the case
gives us an idea of how the DDA in the UK might also result in disabled
individuals taking companies or organisation to court for failing to made a
website adequately accessible to people with disabilities.

Liam:

"Why should UK businesses strive to create a positive experience for those
visitors with disabilities? How can they achieve this? Is it expensive?"

Lis:

"As well as being the law, it is morally the right thing to do, and makes
good business sense!

"There are 8.5 million people in the UK have some form of disability, with an
estimated spending power of £45 billion per year

"Demonstrating your commitment to helping customers, clients and investors
can make a tremendous difference to the way in which your company is
perceived by the public. This will maximise your audience, and increase
your potential market share. Experience of closed doors on websites can
have a negative influence on the way people perceive your company or
organisation.

"Depending on the size and complexity if the site, it can be expensive to
retrofit accessibility to an existing one. But if it's planned for and
included from the start of a redesign or new site project, it needn't add
greatly to the overall cost. And some of that will be offset by savings
farther down the line, since an accessible sites is often easier to maintain
and to redesign later.

"The Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) guidelines are generally accepted as
an international standard of accessibility. The WAI guidelines have three
levels of compliance. Determining your level of compliance broadly comes
down to consideration of a number of factors such as your market, target
audience, resources available, budget and timelines.

"There are three defined levels of accessibility - 'A', the most basic, 'AA',
higher than 'A' and for many quite challenging, and 'AAA' which is the
highest level. Few sites currently achieve even 'A', and that should be the
minimum acceptable standard for any website. We recommend aiming for as
close to 'AA' as possible, to ensure that you achieve a good standard of
accessibility. And if you are able to run user testing sessions on your
website, don't forget to include people with disabilities in the test
panels!

Liam:

"If a website visitor approaches you with complaints about the
accessibility of a certain website what actions will you take?

Lis:

"First of all, we'd discuss things with the person making the complaint, and
then approach the company on their behalf. We'd alert the company to its
duty under the DDA 1995 and provide information on how that duty might be
met to make the website more accessible. However, if no positive change is
apparent within a reasonable timeframe, RNIB may where appropriate, support
a blind or visually impaired person to who seeks redress under the law.

Liam:

Does the RNIB offer accessibility services? Would you like to tell us
about these?

Lis:

"The Web Accessibility Team here at RNIB offers a range of services to help
ensure that websites are accessible. This includes RNIB's See it Right
accreditation service, which awards the See it Right logo to websites that
we have audited and achieve the required standard of accessibility.
Displaying the See it Right logo on a website means that users can be
confident that they can access the site regardless of their abilities or the
technologies they use.

"RNIB have also developed an free online resource which includes advice,
guidance, examples, detailed case studies on web accessibility. It is
regularly updated and available at www.rnib.org.uk/webaccesscentre."

Liam:

"Thank you very much indeed"
___

Lis Angle is Web Accessibility Consultant with the RNIB:
Tel: 020 7391 2048
Email: lis.angle@rnib.org.uk
www.rnib.org.uk/webaccesscentre

RNIB is hosting Vision 2005, the world's premier conference on low vision
and sight loss, in April 2005. 2,500 of the world's leading experts will
gather in London for presentations of the latest research, debates,
networking and professional development opportunities. Find out more about
the "Advances in technology" theme at www.rnib.org.uk/vision2005.

Liam Wickham is Editor of the WolfTalk Internet Ezine, part of The Wolf Network's Internet Services:
Tel: 01227 370546
Email: liam@wolfnetwork.net
www.wolfnetwork.net

The interview may not be edited in any way without prior permission of The Wolf Network, but feel free to distibute it far and wide.
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Old 07-27-2004, 01:08 PM
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Just a side note here. The DRC web site does not comform the requirements for Priority 2 and 3 of the W3C/WAI WCAG 1.0 as they claim on the web site.

OK. They claim that they comform Bobby AAA. But I guess that is what is met there, or?
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Old 08-11-2004, 02:19 PM
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Default Accessabiltiy and Search Engines

I would be interested in knowing what folks think of www.yousearched.com. We were consultants to the developers of YouSearched. Our goal is to introduce the world's first fully accessable search engine.

The SERPs are drawn from the UK PPC E-Spotting but we are hoping to expand that in the future to make the tool more relevant to North American users. Right now the focus is on making the engine as accessable as possible.
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Old 08-11-2004, 11:23 PM
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Default I'm gonna start a fight...

Bear with me here, I am not anti-accessibility.

And to show my credentials, I spent a long time when I was younger volunteering for a Gateway club working with mentally and physically less privileged people, (sorry - friends, because they were) even going on weeks away providing care and support for the members. I still find time to do free work for charitable websites, and when looking for work on the open market (in those desperate times every freelancer goes through) prefer to look at the charity and social sectors.

But I want to play devil's advocate, and this is a discussion forum, so here goes.
The simplest way I can think of to put it is this:

Are shoe shops discriminating against amputees?
Is an artist working on themes of fire and foliage discriminating against the colour blind by painting in red and green?
Or an artist experimenting with a palette of incredibly subtle tones, against the partially sighted?
Are high minimum deposit bank accounts discriminating against the poor?
Does the Diana memorial discriminate against residents in the farther reaches of Britain by being in London, and against the poorer people of London by being in one of the most expensive areas of the city?
Are English Literature websites discriminating against individuals with learning disabilities, non-English speakers and people with bad taste in books?
Are all websites with text discriminating against the illiterate?
(Come on; find me a site without a single word on it - that WOULD be cool!)

I have kept an eye on accessibility guidelines ever since I read an RNIB report years ago and thoroughly agree in principle, but they are a couple of issues.

1) Tone (Perhaps the less important issue)
The RNIB rightly must stand firmly for the rights of those it represents, and it could be argued, have a duty to be EXTREMELY firm in order to counter prevailing lazy attitudes towards the disabled and the lobbying of self-interested parties who are only looking to save money or avoid expense, but I find the blanket aggression to be a little distasteful. It feels as though they are threatening absolutely everyone with legal action, and are only prevented from doing so by a lack of resources. Such an attitude, ironically, makes me feel much less charitable to this charitable organisation.

2) Aesthetics and Freedom Of Expression
So here's a thorny one for the philosophers amongst us. As implied in my opening questions, the implications of the discrimination laws for matters of art, design, aesthetics and personal freedoms could be absolutely draconian.
Can we build an artistic creation in the sunshine without fear of being branded callous towards albinos?
At what point does improving personal freedom for a few impact too greatly on the freedoms of many?
This is a wide reaching issue that goes far beyond the worlds of the arts, as I am sure you will all agree.

I won't explore this further now, but look forward to some stimulating responses.

3) Practicality
'Hello institutional behemoth, thanks for bankrupting my small charity over this issue!'
Okay, fantasy scenario perhaps. We know that RNIB is going to go for big high profile targets, and wouldn't attack a small charity (it would be bad PR after all!) but they have made generalised threats, and aggressively lobbied for a law which has made criminals of millions of small well-meaning organisations (Remember - just cos you haven't been caught doesn't mean you are not a criminal!)

Let me elaborate:

I have helped out small charities with design and build. This is normally done on non-existent or miniscule budgets for little or no recompense meaning that development time is at an absolute premium, especially when you have to find parallel work to enable you to do the charity work.
RNIB wants me to spend hours ensuring that the sites meet ALL accessibility guidelines.
This would mean any developer in a similar situation could have little or no time for design and content. Now isn't that a kicker? Suddenly with bad design and no content a website is accessible to practically NO-ONE! On top of which they will attract few or no sponsors, depriving the charity's beneficiaries of valuable assistance.
Surely this is not what they mean. There are millions and millions of charities, hobbyists, musicians and more without the budget, time or skills to implement these guidelines. RNIB seems to suggest they should somehow sort it out or get off the web unless they want to face litigation and bad publicity.
Now that's what I call practical... ;)

And then there is design and identity - maybe you have opted for a very cool low contrast corporate identity that has been developed over the years and is well recognised. Do you now ditch it? Are you morally repugnant for not having done so in 1995?

And what about target audiences?
Poor under funded charities aren't necessarily trying to be accessible to the disabled themselves - they aren't providing online services to the disabled (although one charity is providing IT training in Buddhist monasteries for disabled people in remotest India)
They are targeting the well off, the rich, the privileged - the ones who can afford expensive contact lenses, designer glasses and laser surgery. (Despite the face that the rich are the least likely sector of society to give, and then the ones who give the smallest proportion of their time and money, but that is a different story...)

Admittedly, the people they are most targeting are the socially conscious, who aren't typically A1 demographics, but compared to the people who need help they are still incredibly privileged and wealthy.
These people will not be impressed by a disproportionate effort put into accessibility. They want slick presentation and high usability values (usability in particular can be hampered by strict guidelines IMHO)
These are the core audience - in fact the ENTIRE audience. Is it not another disservice to the beneficiaries to drive away potential donors?

All advertisers (and all websites are adverts) target their audiences. Investment banks do not advertise in motorway service stations in the remoter parts of the country - they advertise in densely populated, well off areas. Even on the London Underground the majority of such adverts are found in the stations around the City of London and other financial districts (i.e. Docklands)
A company's advertising manager has a duty to utilise his budget to the company's best advantage, and the same applies to the examples I have given - and every other form of business on the planet.

Have the RNIB made any complaints about UK TV's Channel 4 campaign 'Black Friday' which featured dark grey text on a black background? What point and impact would there have been had it been white text on a black background?
It may not always be the most efficient use of resources to comply with these guidelines.

As a comparative example, let me talk about browser compatibility.
Every one on this site is sure to know one thing. Internet Explorer is the Godzilla of browsers.
The vast majority of users are browsing our sites with it (to all the tech-heads consternation!) and if you take advantage of an IE-only feature to give added functionality for IE users then you are not committing a mortal sin (as long as core functionality is maintained for other users)
But even with all our efforts to be as compatible as possible, we can never cover EVERY possibility. I remember years ago reading a statement to the effect that this can only be accomplished by building plain text only sites, and it is even truer today!
But not useful. 100% access, 0.01% usability.
Even aiming for a very high compatibility is problematic - there is an exponential scale whereby past a certain point every bit of effort brings ever-decreasing benefits.
Are we (and our clients) allowed no free reign to decide where to draw the boundaries?
I know people (although I disagree with them) who build sites that ONLY work, even on a basic level, in IE. Bad call perhaps, but they know that even if you don't use IE it's a 99% probability that you have it installed and can use it if you so wish.
That's their call isn't it? Surely it is their loss if they lose custom because of it.

OK, I have gotten a little off track here so let me wrap up.
The real target of these laws are the big boys, the massive corporations who can afford not to care, and are still desperate not to spend a penny that doesn't make them 2 (or 2000) in return. But they affect us ALL!

And remember kids, this law isn't just about that inter-web-net-mcguffin all the kids and geeks are banging on about (give me a wireless radiogram with glowing tubes the size of a garden shed any day of the week!)
Almost all of your clients have a real world presence. Do they have text phones? Are the staff trained to assist people with speech impediments on the phone, or physical difficulties whilst on the premises?
How many unscrupulous pseudo-persons are instead taking advantage of the less able?
I'm sure you can all think of some serious implications, and don't forget, just because you aren't being sued, doesn't mean you are legal!

On that tip, however, I recall going on an outdoor week with Gateway in Wales in the early 90's. When we went rock climbing, no one complained about the lack of wheelchair access to the cliff-top. We were there to help people overcome their personal challenges, not hide them away from the real world.

4) A positive note!
Although rather self interested...
Perhaps all the extra hidden content required for screen readers and accessibility is a boon for SEO? Does this content get spidered, and will it affect your rankings?

Well that's all the ranting from me tonight. I am really interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this issue. I hope you have enjoyed some of it.

To say goodbye I thought I would just say a word about my favourite charity.
Links India (http://www.links-india.org) work in northern India with Tibetan and Indian disabled children and orphans, providing sponsorships and helping to provide educational resources in one of the most deprived and remote areas of the world.
The charity founder keeps it going alongside a full time job, and still manages to find the time (and pays for it with her own money) to travel to India at least once a year, often at personal risk to life and limb, not least through asphyxiation due to red tape.
An exhibition of photographs at St. Pancras Hospital in London earlier this year garnered some much-needed and well-deserved attention, but as ever, more help is required.
Take a look, if only for pictures of some of the sweetest children on the planet.

Ways YOU can help:
Money!
Donate to the charity, or make Amazon purchases via the site, making money for Links India through the Amazon affiliate program.
Backlinks!
Go on, please! It would be a massive boost for them! I'm sure you can easily work out the keywords required - or PM me for further help.
Time & Skills!
If any of you fancy following my lead and turning away from the darkside (yeah, I know, Doom III is so tempting...) I am sure Links India would appreciate any help and advice. The website is incredibly basic thanks to all the restrictions mentioned earlier. I intend to get them PayPal'ed up for donations and postcard sales ASAP but would appreciate help and advice on alternatives and improvements.
http://www.links-india.org

Good night every one!
DisasterMan
absolutedisaster.co.uk
MuffJam.com
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Old 08-12-2004, 06:49 AM
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I'm all for guidelines which'll help the web be more useable for a greater number of people, especially the blind (as I used to live with and care for a blind lady).

One feature I like about this forum is the choice of font sizes given (why doesn't the rnib have this?).

So, what can we do to easily make our sites more useable?

We can give the option of larger fonts (is it css?)

We can think more carefully about alt tags on images, describe the image aswell as including keywords.

Many sites give visitors the option of the flash version, or the frames version, plain text, etc...

So, we could consider doing this, how long would it take to copy and paste text into a simple template,
and add a link to the 'rnib friendly version'?

Or maybe, why not create a browser for the blind/partially sighted which does all this?

Or even, when Google throws up a foreign language site, we're given the 'tranlate this page' option, couldn't google(or any search engine) give the option of 'rnib aproved page'.

As long as we have options which cater for our differing needs, then our differing needs become less off a problem.

ps. Thanks Disasterman (a fine devils advocate), and the Yousearched engine is a fine idea, well done.
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Old 08-12-2004, 07:19 AM
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Did you all read this article of mine?
http://www.webnauts.net/accessibility.html
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Old 08-12-2004, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkwind dave
One feature I like about this forum is the choice of font sizes given (why doesn't the rnib have this?).
A very good point, reminding me of Webnauts salient point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Webnauts
The DRC web site does not conform the requirements for Priority 2 and 3 of the W3C/WAI WCAG 1.0 as they claim on the web site.
Surely this makes a mockery of the government's possibly high-handed approach.
For those who DO have the resources (and the remit) there really is no excuse for for such slackness, as well as opening a potential can of worms for any future prosecutions. We all know that 'but he's doing it too!' is no legal defence, but it would make any prosecution look like an ass to have their supporters exposed as non-compliant. Do the relevant agencies want to be exposed to the bad publicity that they threaten others with?

'Those who live in glass houses...'

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkwind dave
Or maybe, why not create a browser for the blind/partially sighted which does all this?
Now that really is an excellent point. Perhaps RNIB would like to respond. Is this not an excellent project, a fine use of the charity's resources, and an excellent PR product?

Would it be a good idea for the RNIB to promote Opera? It switches between the author's view and a pre-set (and customisable) user view mode with a click of a button or a key press.
Firefox also has similar features (some from easily installed plug-ins) and is easily customisable.

Conceivably RNIB could commission and distribute versions of these browsers with pre-loaded settings and plug-ins designed to make life easier for such users.

Does anyone have suggestions for other alternatives that could be of benefit?

I am sure there must be millions of partially sighted users who are not even aware of these browsers, let alone their advanced custom view options. The MS/IE hegemony is certainly not helping these users. (Although all credit to MS for having accessibility options built into it's current operating systems)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkwind dave
Thanks Disasterman (a fine devils advocate)
Thanks! Nice to know sacrificing a good night's sleep is appreciated.

Some more question on general (not purely web) accessibility.
Are TV broadcasters discriminating by not providing ALL programs with subtitles and sign language?

When is someone going to design radio for the deaf? Surely radio is technically barring access to its services... ;)

And in all seriousness, should RNIB be ensuring its services for the blind are accessible to the deaf? It may sound silly, but they do have a legal responsibility.

Does this mean that Internet cafes should provide Dr. Hawkins style terminals for people suffering from head injuries, physical debilitation and other forms of paralysis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Webnauts
Did you all read this article of mine?
http://www.webnauts.net/accessibility.html
Excellent introduction to the (non-legal) reasons for accessibility, and all fair and true.
What is not clearly told anywhere (that I have seen) is exactly what proportion of users have accessibility issues. If we are talking about spending (theoretical figures here) 5% of our budgets to cover the last 0.5% or less of users, is it a good use of our resources (which has environmental implications in our wasteful society)? And with the exponential creep of grabbing the last few people, once you have 99.999% coverage, how sensible is it to expend a further 2% of budget to get that last 0.001% of users?
Do you want 100 loyal customers who appreciate your accessibility policy, or 1000 loyal customers who are infatuated with your gorgeous designs?
Tough questions...

There is no question, however, that we have a legal duty under current legislation, but that does not mean that all legislation is always well thought out or implemented, or even fair.
Otherwise old statutes would never be overturned and new ones created in their place.
Personally, I can't wait to go down to Islington Green early on Sunday morning to practise my archery and see what the local constabulary has to say...
(Check Dumb law no.6 here for an explanation)
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Old 08-12-2004, 07:49 AM
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From Webnauts article;

"For people without disabilities, technology makes things convenient,"
"For people with disabilities, it makes things possible."

Lets just try to make things possible for all.

A fine article, thankyou :-)
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Old 08-12-2004, 08:57 AM
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Well, to be honest, I hadn't looked much through the other posts in this forum, I just posted my thoughts there and then.

A lot of the issues I have raised are hotly debated in this topic:
Should Government Mandate Accessibility On All Sites?

kiwimagic1, a disabled user (now that's the feedback we need) makes the stunning point that irrelevant of the actual numbers of disabled users, many of those users are HIGHLY dependant on the net for goods and services (and human interaction?) in their day to day lives. One user in this category may well be better for your client than 100 fly by night consumers dashing about for the best deal (normally at the expense of service) Now if that doesn't lend weight to the pro-access argument, what can?

Perhaps some real stats courtesy of Webnauts and WHO (World Health Organisation):
"WHO estimates that between 7% and 10% of the world?s population lives with disabilities which means almost 500 million people. The vast majority of them, about 80%, live in developing countries, where only 1% to 2% have access to the necessary rehabilitation services."

Now that is more than I thought, and I thought I knew a thing or two!
Mind you, it still doesn't tell us the stats that affect us as webmasters. It is likely (no offence) that a disproportionate number of these unfortunate people are from developing countries, are very poor, have no PC and do not access the net at all. What are the numbers for the UK, and for UK internet users in particular (Or for your own country/target region(s))?
Please, does anyine have relevant figures to our industry?

There are some great posts in that topic (mostly on the correct level of Govt. involvement), sadly I don't have time to read them all right now. But I will say this (and repeat myself in the process):
Right here, right now, whether governments should or should not regulate accessibility isn't the most important question (although still a valid and vital debate).
The point is THEY ALREADY DO!

Now how far do we go to comply?
What can be done to make it easier for us, the developers, to make it easier for the end users?
Answers on a postcard... Well ok, an A0 sized postcard!
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Old 08-13-2004, 02:15 AM
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Clint Eastwood said it best, "A man's got to know his limitations."
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Old 08-17-2004, 11:01 AM
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Hi all,
I've just been pointed in the direction of Betsie, which is the BBC's thingy to make webpages more accessable to users with impared vision and such like. There's more info about Betsie here, http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/betsie/
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Old 09-27-2004, 05:42 AM
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I figured this may be of use;

http://www.w3.org/WAI/References/Browsing.html

:-)
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Old 08-14-2006, 11:48 PM
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I was just reviewing some of my old posts and noticed the Dumb Laws link was out of date.
Updated link
What I hadn't realised previously is that there must be a member of the clergy present. Time to go for one of those on-line priesthood applications!
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Old 08-20-2006, 12:55 AM
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I hope I am not going to far or off topic. We published recently another article called the need of accessibility.

If you have some minutes, could be worth taking a look: The need of accessibility.
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